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  #221  
Old 10-11-2019, 04:12 PM
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Svensk Damtidning's Helena Wiklund interviewed Victoria in Iceland about the change in the Royal House.

What does the Crown Princess think about the great change in the royal house? Does the Crown Princess feel at ease for the future?
– Yes, I do. But I think we should find another opportunity to talk about this. Take another grasp of it simply.
Meanwhile, many people wonder how the Crown Princess thinks about this.
- Yes it is so.
And several who feel that the press and responsibility that has been put on the Crown princess is getting very large?
Victoria ponders a few seconds before she responds.
- But it belongs well to the whole. It is not so strange really.
So the Crown Princess feels confident for the future?
- Well, I do. And I am confident also with what I have around me.
Exklusivt! Victorias första ord – svarar efter kungens beslut _ Svensk Dam

The King has now highlighted that Crown Princess Victoria and her children have a special position.
Madeleine welcomes the decision - outwards.
But previously, she has wanted her children to belong to the royal house as well, says Expressen.
The king is the one who has taken the initiative in this matter, but all three children have been keen to express their views. The court admits that it is a process that has taken a long time.
- This is a discussion that has been around for a long time in the family, and the whole royal family has been involved. Everyone is involved, says Margareta Thorgren.
When asked about how close the family members have been, Margareta Thorgren replies that it is a dialogue that has been held within the family.
- It is a process that has been going on for a long time and where everyone in the family agrees.
But earlier, when Princess Madeleine's daughter Leonore was born in 2014, Madeleine expressed a desire for her children to belong to the royal house. According to information to Expressen, the king agreed with his daughter, despite the fact that there were divided sentences in the matter within the court.
However, Karin Lennmor, royal expert and chronicler at Expressen, does not perceive Madeleine's wish at that time that she wanted at all costs for her daughter to become part of the royal house.
- Madeleine really wanted her firstborn daughter to get a princess title, and with that she got it she became part of the royal house. When Madeleine and Chris O'Neill got married, Chris did not want to receive the prince's title. He wanted to be able to work as usual. That's why I think Madeleine was worried when Leonore was born. She didn't really know what her baby would be like. Then she pressed her parents and said: I want my daughter to become a princess, Karin Lennmor says.
The King's decision on Monday could also have financial consequences for his younger children. The focus on Victoria is expected to mean that Princess Madeleine and Prince couple Carl Philip and Sofia will receive fewer official assignments in the future.
Prinsessan Madeleine om relationen till Victoria

The game behind the king's decision on the grandchildren
Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip's children will no longer belong to the royal house.
King Carl Gustaf's decision came as a surprise, but the signals that a change was underway have been around for a long time.
The decision will also affect Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip. As they receive fewer official assignments, their apanage will also decrease.
- When the royal children were born, the royal family was not so big. Now we have a situation with ten people in the line to throne, when the king has reached this great restriction, The Marshal of the Realm Fredrik Wersäll previously told Expressen.
According to him, this is a decision that has been discussed within the royal family for several years.
- The decision by the king explicitly states that this means greater freedom for the children to shape their own future. They will continue to be part of the succession. There is also an obligation to work to maintain the trust of the monarchy.
Both Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia have commented that they are positive about the change.
"Chris and I think it is good that our children now have a greater opportunity to shape their own lives as individuals in the future", Madeleine writes on Instagram.
- I absolutely think she welcomes this decision. After all, she has talked about it and it has also become clear that she has been bothered by all the attention and demands that she should return to Sweden and represent in different contexts. Although she will still be a royal highness and princess, both she and Carl Philip will be much calmer now, says chronicler Karin Lennmor.
Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia also commented on the decision on their joint Instagram account:
“We see this as a positive as Alexander and Gabriel will have freer choices in life. They will retain their prince titles and their duchies, Södermanland and Dalarna, which we value and are proud of. Our family has strong connections to both landscapes and we maintain our commitment there ”.
- I think Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine are happy about this decision, not have to be so careful and to have this press on them anymore, says Lennmor.
The clues have been there for a long time
Although the king's decision came as a surprise to many, there have been signals that a change has been going on for a long time.
- There are two very clear signs, says Karin Lennmor.
In September, Princess Madeleine, who is up to date with her children's book debut "Stella and the secret", was present at the Book Fair in Gothenburg and then bypassed the question of where the children would go to school.
- It was always an indication that something was going on. This with school, I think is something that worried Madeleine. The old rule has been that when you belong to the royal house, the children should have a Swedish schooling with Swedish as their mother tongue and it is not possible to arrange in Florida what I know. Now it will be completely different. She is completely free to choose where she wants to put her children in school. This message, I think, meant that a large stone fell from her shoulders, Karin Lennmor says.
Karin Lennmor also remembers what it was like when Princess Madeleine first met Chris and that he made a clear marker when he declined a prince title.
- He wanted to be free and not have that burden around his neck. Madeleine, on the other hand, was very anxious that Leonore, her first child, should receive a princess title. So already then she highlighted that even though my husband doesn't want to be a prince, we don't want to be excluded from the royal family, and they are not either, says Karin Lennmor.
A clear signal - the summer picture from Solliden
All the years, the royal family has been photographed in front of Solliden's castle on Öland. Last year, only one image was published of the royal couple, the crown princess couple and Princess Estelle and Prince Oscar.
- It can definitely be seen as a signal. I reacted myself when I saw the picture. On the other hand, we must not forget that the whole royal family has become so good themselves on social media by posting pictures, says Karin Lennmor.
Among other things, she takes up the photo that Princess Madeleine posted on herself and her family from Solliden. Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia also posted a summer picture of themselves and the sons.
- But there is still something in this, that one may have paved the way for this decision in that picture.
That there was no official 40-year celebration for Carl-Philip in May this year, however, is nothing Karin Lennmor sees as a clue to the king's decision.
- Only the heirs to the throne, in this case Crown Princess Victoria, have official birthday celebrations, so it's not strange at all.
Recently, the court's website has also seen an increasing focus on the royal couple and the crown princess couple.
- It is something I have been thinking about, but there I have concluded that the royal family has become so much more involved with the media. The court has also received a new good digital editor. However, both Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine have been good at this by posting their own pictures.
Karin Lennmor believes that when Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine can count on a smaller apanage, it will not be a problem, as both have their own careers. Princess Madeleine has started her career as a children's book writer and Prince Carl Philip has his design company.
- So they will not be poor and their children will do well in the future as well. I am convinced of that, she says.
Expressen has sought Margareta Thorgren for a comment.
Spelet bakom kungens beslut om barnbarnen
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  #222  
Old 10-14-2019, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
According to the updated court website they are not prince/princess of Sweden:
Children - Sveriges Kungahus
Oscar's biography
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Originally Posted by EssexRoyal View Post
Presumably they will now be Prince/Princess X Bernadotte.
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The updated website still does not use a surname for them - which is surprising since traditionally, royals who were stripped of the title Prince/Princess of Sweden, and are therefore "just" Prince/Princess, use a surname with their title:

Prince Oscar Bernadotte
Prince Carl Bernadotte
Princess Margaretha, Mrs. Ambler
Princess Désirée, Baroness Silfverschiöld
Princess Christina, Mrs. Magnuson


Since the Court is not following the Prince X Bernadotte example, what style are the grandchildren without "of Sweden" expected to use outside of Sweden?

The simple "Prince Alexander" as used by the Court probably will not be accepted outside Sweden, as it does not enable foreigners to know which country or family Alexander is a prince of.

Will he continue to be known as Prince Alexander of Sweden at foreign events despite being stripped of the title Prince of Sweden, or will he use Prince Alexander Bernadotte or Prince Alexander, Duke of Södermanland whenever he is abroad?



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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The desire of having fewer taxpayer funded royals has nothing to do with royal and noble titles. Already since the 19th C in the Netherlands no one else than the present, the future and the former Sovereign (and their spouses) have received an income from the State. No matter the array of Princes and Princesses with or without HRH, with or without a hereditary noble title. It is simply a definition the lawmaker sets. One can be a Most Imperial Royal Archiducal Grand-Ducal or even an Apostolic and Most Glorious Majesty and be left totally penniless by the State.
According to the expectations in 21st-century Sweden, membership of the Royal House has implications for one's eligibility for taxpayer-funded official work and freedom to take private employment in business.

Past disquiet about Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine's personal economic interests almost certainly factored into the publication of a policy limiting the professional work of members of the Royal Family in 2014. Policy kring Kungafamiljens ägande av bolag - Sveriges Kungahus

The official press release and press briefing last week asserted that the grandchildren's removal from the royal house would grant them more freedom to find private employment and shut the door on taxpayer funding. Förändringar inom Det Kungl. Huset - Sveriges Kungahus


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Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
If you mean the title count/countess Bernadotte af Wisborg, it's not a title given by a Swedish king (nor would he had been able to give a such title at the time it was created), it's a Luxembougish title given by the grand-duke, and only to males, not females, of the Bernadotte family who lost their Swedish titles when marrying unequal.
What was the reason for King Oscar II being unable to create a noble title for his son, in the 19th century?
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  #223  
Old 10-14-2019, 06:57 PM
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In this case, simply Prince Alexander, Duke of Sodermanland seems enough abroad. It distinguishes him from any other Prince Alexander out there. Like Princess Beatrice of York (not needing UK in her name).

They are expected to also be private citizens, so will not be representing the family outside or in Sweden either. So the distinction may have been seen as not required.

Now when we get to Oscar's kids, they will have to consider this. Will Oscar's kids be given a duchy? Prince X, Duke of Y. Or will they have to consider something like Prince X Bernadotte. For simple act of distinction even if his kids will be private as well.

I am sure press will continue to use of Sweden even if not correct.
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  #224  
Old 10-14-2019, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
In this case, simply Prince Alexander, Duke of Sodermanland seems enough abroad. It distinguishes him from any other Prince Alexander out there. Like Princess Beatrice of York (not needing UK in her name).

They are expected to also be private citizens, so will not be representing the family outside or in Sweden either. So the distinction may have been seen as not required.

Now when we get to Oscar's kids, they will have to consider this. Will Oscar's kids be given a duchy? Prince X, Duke of Y. Or will they have to consider something like Prince X Bernadotte. For simple act of distinction even if his kids will be private as well.

I am sure press will continue to use of Sweden even if not correct.



My understanding is that Oscar's children will be neither princes nor dukes based on the new precedent. But that remains to be seen as it appears to be decided case by case by the reigning monarch. There is no general written rule governing royal titles and styles as an act of Parliament in the case of Netherlands, royal decrees in the case of Belgium and Spain, or letters patent in the case of the UK.
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  #225  
Old 10-14-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
My understanding is that Oscar's children will be neither princes nor dukes based on the new precedent. But that happens to be seen as it appears to be decided case by case by the reigning monarch. There is no general written rule governing royal titles and styles as an act of Parliament in the case of Netherlands, royal decrees in the case of Belgium and Spain, or letters patent in the case of the UK.
The new precedent simply states that only grandchildren of the monarch by the heir are HRH and of Sweden. Simply that.

Based on the new precdent, Oscar's children will not HRH Prince/ss of Sweden. But its not clear they will have no title at all.
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  #226  
Old 10-14-2019, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
The new precedent simply states that only grandchildren of the monarch by the heir are HRH and of Sweden. Simply that.

Based on the new precdent, Oscar's children will not HRH Prince/ss of Sweden. But its not clear they will have no title at all.
But, historically, only HRHs ( princes of Sweden) had duchies. If I am not mistaken , duchies were explicitly restricted to that class of people in the text of the Instrument of Government of 1808, but I would have to double check that.

I assume then that, going forward, grandchildren who are not HRHs won’t.be dukes either. CP’s and Madeleine’s children are an exception because of the desire to keep the connection they already had with the respective provinces in their duchies.

It should be noted also that princes who lost the HRH in the past because of unequal marriages also lost their duchies.
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  #227  
Old 10-15-2019, 03:36 AM
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But, historically, only HRHs ( princes of Sweden) had duchies. If I am not mistaken , duchies were explicitly restricted to that class of in the text of the Instrument of Government of 1808, but I would have to double check that.
§37 of The Instrument of Government of 1809 states that The King may ennoble or confer the titles of baron and count on men who has done outstanding service to The King or The Realm.
§45 mentions that the Crown Prince or Princes of The Royal House may not "have a jointure or hold a public office" but that they may carry the title of Duke or Prince in accordance with old customs without any rights to the province of which they carry a title.
These two paragraphs remained in force until the new Instrument of Government of 1975 and the way I interpret them they limit the titles of duke and prince to male members of the Royal House.
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  #228  
Old 10-15-2019, 04:36 AM
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Has the 1975 diminished the Swedish Nobility ,from what I've read very few new titles were created in the past 100 years which makes me think that the law was a tad unnecessary.
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  #229  
Old 10-15-2019, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
§37 of The Instrument of Government of 1809 states that The King may ennoble or confer the titles of baron and count on men who has done outstanding service to The King or The Realm.
§45 mentions that the Crown Prince or Princes of The Royal House may not "have a jointure or hold a public office" but that they may carry the title of Duke or Prince in accordance with old customs without any rights to the province of which they carry a title.
These two paragraphs remained in force until the new Instrument of Government of 1975 and the way I interpret them they limit the titles of duke and prince to male members of the Royal House.
It is interesting that despite §45 obviously being deleted from the new Instrument of Government of 1975, the King's conferrals of ducal titles on male members of the Royal House born after 1975, and even his expansion of duchies to female members of the Royal House since 1980, are not seriously questioned by anybody. While this is speculation, I think that establishes a useful precedent in the event that, sometime in the future, Queen Victoria would like to confer a courtesy comital title on her grandchildren (by Oscar) or the grandchildren of her siblings.
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  #230  
Old 10-15-2019, 08:49 AM
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It is interesting that despite §45 obviously being deleted from the new Instrument of Government of 1975, the King's conferrals of ducal titles on male members of the Royal House born after 1975, and even his expansion of duchies to female members of the Royal House since 1980, are not seriously questioned by anybody. While this is speculation, I think that establishes a useful precedent in the event that, sometime in the future, Queen Victoria would like to confer a courtesy comital title on her grandchildren (by Oscar) or the grandchildren of her siblings.
Yes, that is a valid point.
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  #231  
Old 10-17-2019, 11:13 AM
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Princess Birgitta: "I back my brother with 100 percent!"
There are major changes going on in the royal house - but now it is clear that the king is supported by his sister.
Princess Birgitta is the only one of the four Haga Princess to be titled Her Royal Highness.
She is also the only one of those belonging to The Royal House.
The king's sister has been following the events closely, it is clear when we reach her by phone in the home of Santa Ponsa in Mallorca.
With a little perspective - what does the princess say about the king's decision last week?
- Yes, I'm behind my brother with 100 percent. We all do! But otherwise, this is a decision that does not concern me.
But isn't there much pressure on the Crown Princess?
- Yes, but she agrees with that. She was born to this and has never experienced anything else. And she has very good help and good advisers around her. And she really does this with pleasure. Victoria will be a great asset for Sweden.
Prinsessan Birgitta_ _Jag står bakom min bror till 100 procent!_ _ Svensk Dam
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  #232  
Old 10-20-2019, 03:37 AM
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The article in Svensk Damtidning's latest issue about the King's decision
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Carl Philip and Sofia told in their interview in Dagens Nyheter, which Svensk Damtidning quotes, about their role in the future:
Because although you rarely see Princess Madeleine in Sweden nowadays considering that she lives on the other side of the Atlantic, Carl Philip and Sofia have been most present in many official contexts in recent years. When the decision became official, it felt a little uncertain what the future would look like, and the Marshal of the Realm told that the siblings to the crown princess get a little less central roles "as time goes on".
But in an interview with Dagens Nyheter, Carl Philip and Sofia say that they know what is expected of them.
- Directly, our roles may not change very much. But in the long term, as the focus will on the Head of State and the future Head of State with family, it will be a little freer for us as well. Or how, says Sofia in the interview and turns to Carl Philip who continues.
- So it will maybe be long term. But we still have commitments that we will carry out. Planning is not just for the next few weeks and months, but sometimes quite far ahead, when there is something we have agreed to attend. They are not cancelled, he says.
The Prince couple goes on to say that their commitment to the Swedish monarchy remains and that they are always close at hand if support is needed for the Crown Princess Couple and the Royal Couple. And that certain ceremonial tasks are obvious for the prince couple to continue to be involved in, such as the Opening of the Riksdag and the Nobel.
- State visits and ceremonial duties, such as the Opening of the Riksdag and the Nobel. Those things have been obvious. It has been very clear that the wish is for us to join, says Prince Carl Philip.
These missions will continue.
- If it is wished, yes. We have also had several different official assignments throughout Sweden and also abroad. If it is desired that we continue in this way, then of course we will. So the question of what is going to happen is true and important. But it is difficult to specify. The requirement specification depends on when you ask, says Prince Carl Philip.
Kungens order till Sofia och Carl Philip_ _Det har varit väldigt tydligt_ _ Svensk Dam
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  #233  
Old 10-20-2019, 06:44 AM
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The article in Svensk Damtidning's latest issue about the King's decision
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Carl Philip and Sofia told in their interview in Dagens Nyheter, which Svensk Damtidning quotes, about their role in the future:
Because although you rarely see Princess Madeleine in Sweden nowadays considering that she lives on the other side of the Atlantic, Carl Philip and Sofia have been most present in many official contexts in recent years. When the decision became official, it felt a little uncertain what the future would look like, and the Marshal of the Realm told that the siblings to the crown princess get a little less central roles "as time goes on".
But in an interview with Dagens Nyheter, Carl Philip and Sofia say that they know what is expected of them.
- Directly, our roles may not change very much. But in the long term, as the focus will on the Head of State and the future Head of State with family, it will be a little freer for us as well. Or how, says Sofia in the interview and turns to Carl Philip who continues.
- So it will maybe be long term. But we still have commitments that we will carry out. Planning is not just for the next few weeks and months, but sometimes quite far ahead, when there is something we have agreed to attend. They are not cancelled, he says.
The Prince couple goes on to say that their commitment to the Swedish monarchy remains and that they are always close at hand if support is needed for the Crown Princess Couple and the Royal Couple. And that certain ceremonial tasks are obvious for the prince couple to continue to be involved in, such as the Opening of the Riksdag and the Nobel.
- State visits and ceremonial duties, such as the Opening of the Riksdag and the Nobel. Those things have been obvious. It has been very clear that the wish is for us to join, says Prince Carl Philip.
These missions will continue.
- If it is wished, yes. We have also had several different official assignments throughout Sweden and also abroad. If it is desired that we continue in this way, then of course we will. So the question of what is going to happen is true and important. But it is difficult to specify. The requirement specification depends on when you ask, says Prince Carl Philip.
Kungens order till Sofia och Carl Philip_ _Det har varit väldigt tydligt_ _ Svensk Dam

There is no need for CP and Sofia's role to change just because their children are no longer HRHs.



Sweden is a small country (in population terms) with only 10 million people. The demands on the Royal Family are not comparable then to those in the UK, which has a population of 67 million and a monarchy with a global reach because of the Commonwealth. Still, in 10 years or so, even if the present King does not abdicate, he and the queen consort will probably start to slow down and it will be nice if Victoria and Daniel can count on CP and Sofia to support them by taking up more royal engagements. Estelle and Oscar probably won't be working royals until they are in their mid-20s or even older (when Victoria is likely to have already become queen), so I think CP and Sofia will be needed for a long time.
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