The Change of the Act of Succession - 1979 Constitution Change

[Hans-Rickard]

Pre-Wedding Information for Carl Philip and Sofia

The Swedish Royal family is not a noble family (like the Bernadotte of Wisborg family) as Sweden doesn't recognise nobility anymore.

They belong to the swedish constitution and they must follow it wich means that they are not allowed to have a different order of precedence in the family than the official one in to the order of succession.

Will Carl Philip be given any priviligies upon the Death of the King that would normally have gone to the monarch ? I don't know.

It was known 3 years ago that the King has (supported by Carl Philip) decided that the gallilera inheritance that would have gone to Carl Philip will go to Victoria instead.

He will definitely as the only Prince by blood of the swedish royal family inerhit Stenhammar Castle from The King according to the will of it's former owner. I belive Stenhammar is the only palace that the King actually owns and does not belong to the state of Sweden.

And he has already inherited Villa Solbacken from Prince Bertil.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Swedish Royal family is not a noble family (like the Bernadotte of Wisborg family) as Sweden doesn't recognise nobility anymore.

They belong to the swedish constitution and they must follow it wich means that they are not allowed to have a different order of precedence in the family than the official one in to the order of succession.

Will Carl Philip be given any priviligies upon the Death of the King that would normally have gone to the monarch ? I don't know.

It was known 3 years ago that the King has supported by Carl Philip decided that the gallilera inheritance that would have gone to Carl Philip will go to Victoria instead.

He will definitely as the only Prince by blood of the swedish royal family inerhit Stenhammar Castle from The King according to the will of it's former owner. I belive Stenhammar is the only palace that the King actually owns and does not belong to the state of Sweden.

And he has already inherited Villa Solbacken from Prince Bertil.

You say Sweden does not recognize nobility but in official outings the State of Sweden uses titles,.They state: Hertig d'Otrante, not Mr d'Otrante. They say Friherre Staël von Holstein, they say Greve De Geer af Leufsta, nor Mr Staël or Mr De Geer... This means that the State has recognition of these titles, or not?

 

[Mbruno]

He will definitely as the only Prince by blood of the swedish royal family inerhit Stenhammar Castle from The King according to the will of it's former owner. I belive Stenhammar is the only palace that the King actually owns and does not belong to the state of Sweden.

Isn't the Solliden Palace also privately owned by the King ? I don't know who will inherit it.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Pre-Wedding Information for Carl Philip and Sofia

You say Sweden does not recognize nobility but in official outings the State of Sweden uses titles,.They state: Hertig d'Otrante, not Mr d'Otrante. They say Friherre Staël von Holstein, they say Greve De Geer af Leufsta, nor Mr Staël or Mr De Geer... This means that the State has recognition of these titles, or not?

The swedish constitution does not recognise nobility anymore but we have not banned the use of noble titles for people from noble families.

That means that for example members of family Lewenhaupt or family Oxenstierna of Korsholm and Vasa can still call themselves Count/Countess and members of family De La Gardie or family Silfverschiöld can still call themselves Baron/Baroness even though the title does not have any juridical function anymore.

 

[Mbruno]

The swedish constitution does not recognise nobility anymore but we have not banned the use of noble titles for people from noble families.

That means that for example members of family Lewenhaupt can still call themselves Count/Countess and members of family Silfverschiöld can still call themselves Baron/Baroness even though the title does not have any juridical function anymore.

I have a question: if someone who is not a member of the Lewenhaupt family calls himself Count Lewenhaupt, can the Lewenhaupts sue him ?

 

[Hans-Rickard]

I have a question: if someone who is not a member of the Lewenhaupt family calls himself Count Lewenhaupt, can the Lewenhaupts sue him ?

Technically yes as many surnames of noble ancestry is still protected by the law of names despite the nobility itself being abolished. It's quite confusing.

Isn't the Solliden Palace also privately owned by the King ? I don't know who will inherit it.

You are correct. The King inherited it aged 4 from his great grandfather Gustaf V who inherited it from his wife Queen Victoria.

Don't know how they will do with it after the King is gone. As the Crown Princess family has builded a large house on the estate i can imagine that they will do something like Lennart Bernadotte did with Mainau and set up a foundation that will run the estate and being chaired by Victoria, Carl-Philip and Madeleine.

As we are off topic but discusses an important thing maybe the moderators can move this discussion to a fitting thread ?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The King of Sweden can not create new nobility but of course Carl Philip has two titles: Prince of Sweden and Duke of Värmland. Technically, as son of the King and bearer of two titles, in my eyes is no creation of nobility needed.

In Denmark the title Count (Countess) de Monpezat was added to the princely titles. In the Netherlands the offspring of the younger sons of Queen Beatrix are Counts (Countesses) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. In the Danish and the Dutch case it was not so much an "elevation into the nobility" (as the persons were already belonging to royalty) but more an "incorporation" of a branch of the royal family into the nobility, with a noble title. When this is also possible in Sweden, then technically King Carl XVI Gustaf has not created a new noble - after all his son is royal - he only "added" him to the Swedish Nobility, so to say. Is that possible?

 

[JR76]

The King of Sweden can not create new nobility but of course Carl Philip has two titles: Prince of Sweden and Duke of Värmland. Technically, as son of the King and bearer of two titles, in my eyes is no creation of nobility needed.

In Denmark the title Count (Countess) de Monpezat was added to the princely titles. In the Netherlands the offspring of the younger sons of Queen Beatrix are Counts (Countesses) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. In the Danish and the Dutch case it was not so much an "elevation into the nobility" (as the persons were already belonging to royalty) but more an "incorporation" of a branch of the royal family into the nobility, with a noble title. When this is also possible in Sweden, then technically King Carl XVI Gustaf has not created a new noble - after all his son is royal - he only "added" him to the Swedish Nobility, so to say. Is that possible?

I don't think so. The Swedish nobility is not under the jurisdiction of the king and nowadays Riddarhuset is completely separate from the state. Also the Bernadottes isn't by definition a noble family and the title of duke should not be seen as a noble but a honorary royal title.


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[Hans-Rickard]

and the title of duke should not be seen as a noble but a honorary royal title.


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Correct. It's an all honorary title bestowed by the King with no noble connection at all. That's why Daniel got the title of Duke of Västergötland and why Sofia will be made Duchess of Värmland.

Had it been noble titles Daniel and Sofia could not have got those titles. Then they would likely have been created Prince Daniel Mr Bernadotte-Westling and Princess Sofia Mrs Bernadotte.

 

[LadyFinn]

He will definitely as the only Prince by blood of the swedish royal family inerhit Stenhammar Castle from The King according to the will of it's former owner. I belive Stenhammar is the only palace that the King actually owns and does not belong to the state of Sweden.

The king doesn't own the Stenhammar Castle.
Stenhammar Castle is owned by the State and the king leases it. A R von Kraemer wrote in his will that the estate should be leased only to a Swedish prince of the royal family, who has possible succession to the throne. So after the king Carl Philip will lease the estate from the State.
Historia — Stenhammars Godsförvaltning
Translation

The king owns the Solliden Palace. And Victoria and Daniel built there an own house to Solliden with their own money. Maybe that tells us something.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

The king owns the Solliden Palace. And Victoria and Daniel built there an own house to Solliden with their own money. Maybe that tells us something.

Don't think Carl-Philip will be given Solliden as it has since Gustaf V and Victoria who decided to build it been used as the official summer Residence of the royal family. And Carl-Philip and Sofia dosen't seem to be there very often.

Yes Solliden is the one Carl Gustaf owns. Not Stenhammar.

 

[LadyFinn]

Don't think Carl-Philip will be given Solliden as it has since Gustaf V and Victoria who decided to build it been used as the official summer Residence of the royal family. And Carl-Philip and Sofia dosen't seem to be there very often.

Yes Solliden is the one Carl Gustaf owns. Not Stenhammar.

Of course not. I meant that Victoria will inherit it. It wouldn't be logical to spend millions to a house on an estate owned by someone else after the king is dead.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Of course not. I meant that Victoria will inherit it. It wouldn't be logical to spend millions to a house on an estate owned by someone else after the king is dead.

Oh sorry i misunderstood.

I agree. It seems like they are paving the way for Victorias family. She and Daniel seems to be the only ones except for her parents with any particular interest in Solliden.

 

[JR76]

Of course not. I meant that Victoria will inherit it. It wouldn't be logical to spend millions to a house on an estate owned by someone else after the king is dead.

Oh sorry i misunderstood.

I agree. It seems like they are paving the way for Victorias family. She and Daniel seems to be the only ones except for her parents with any particular interest in Solliden.

As Madeleine and her family apparently will live abroad and CP has that country house he inherited from a business man some years ago I agree it seems that Victoria is most likely to inherit Solliden. That said they all have equal rights of inheritance so she would have to buy them out.


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[Pranter]

Mod note: this post and post no. 332 have been moved from the edding thread of the prince.

Although I agree that he was wrongfully stripped of his title. Has Prince CP ever given any indication he feels this way? Perhaps he feels like he dodged a bullet? Not everyone wants to be saddled with that.

LaRae

 

[Mbruno]

Although I agree that he was wrongfully stripped of his title. Has Prince CP ever given any indication he feels this way? Perhaps he feels like he dodged a bullet? Not everyone wants to be saddled with that.

Queen Silvia said in that Portuguese-language interview to Globo that I posted in another forum that "thankfully" CP "accepted it" and "everything is fine now". Keep in mind CP was only 7 months old when it happened. I suppose it is more of an issue to his parents than to him, not only to the King, but, surprisiingly, to the Queen as well from her tone in that particular interview. She said "it was the will of the people" and again that they "accepted it".

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Queen Silvia said in that Portuguese-language interview to Globo that I posted in another forum that "thankfully" CP "accepted it" and "everything is fine now". Keep in mind CP was only 7 months old when it happened. I suppose it is more of an issue to his parents than to him, not only to the King, but, surprisiingly, to the Queen as well from her tone in that particular interview. She said "it was the will of the people" and again that they "accepted it".

Absolutely. I saw a german interview yesterday with a well know german royal watcher and Silvia said the same thing again, that they were against it but the parliament decided over their heads just because the women's movement was everywhere. I didn't like the tone how she said it at all. She further said that she didnt want Victoria with the burden having to work and having a family. Sorry, this interview is from 2015, in what world is she still living?? She sounded negative and nostalgic, as if she hadn't understood a thing.

During yesterday's wedding I couldnt help thinking that CG would have been so proud if his son would have been the CP and he tried to give him a party as if he was the CP.

The way the Bernadotte children and their partners are being treated differently by both Silvia & CG is really appalling.

 

[Furienna]

Absolutely. I saw a german interview yesterday with a well know german royal watcher and Silvia said the same thing again, that they were against it but the parliament decided over their heads just because the women's movement was everywhere. I didn't like the tone how she said it at all. She further said that she didnt want Victoria with the burden having to work and having a family. Sorry, this interview is from 2015, in what world is she still living?? She sounded negative and nostalgic, as if she hadn't understood a thing.

But I can understand Silvia's viewpoint, even if you find it too old-fashioned. She just happens to be more conservative than others...

During yesterday's wedding I couldnt help thinking that CG would have been so proud if his son would have been the CP and he tried to give him a party as if he was the CP.

The way the Bernadotte children and their partners are being treated differently by both Silvia & CG is really appalling.

I'm sorry that you see it that way, but I don't think that was the intention.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

The way the Bernadotte children and their partners are being treated differently by both Silvia & CG is really appalling.

I don't think that's entirely true. Victoria's wedding was on a much larger scale and much grander than this. Madeleine's was smaller but that was on her request.

 

[Sarahbellar]

As Madeleine and her family apparently will live abroad and CP has that country house he inherited from a business man some years ago I agree it seems that Victoria is most likely to inherit Solliden. That said they all have equal rights of inheritance so she would have to buy them out.


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All 3 children spend time at Solliden. They have been photographed many times out and about on Öland. I believe yesterday MT said that The princess family would spend their summer at Solliden.

 

[Meraude]

The way the Bernadotte children and their partners are being treated differently by both Silvia & CG is really appalling.

Victoria is the heir to the throne and therefore her wedding was grander than the weddings of her siblings, and the Swedish government payed for half of expenses for that wedding, while the king had to pay from his own pocket for the weddings of Madeleine and Carl Philip. If Madeleine had been able to choose she would most likely have preferred to have a private wedding without any media present, but as the daughter of the king of Sweden it was not possible. As for Carl Philip and Sofia, I think they got the wedding they wanted, they wanted a big wedding and they got it.

 

[LadyFinn]

Victoria is the heir to the throne and therefore her wedding was grander than the weddings of her siblings, and the Swedish government payed for half of expenses for that wedding, while the king had to pay from his own pocket for the weddings of Madeleine and Carl Philip. If Madeleine had been able to choose she would most likely have preferred to have a private wedding without any media present, but as the daughter of the king of Sweden it was not possible. As for Carl Philip and Sofia, I think they got the wedding they wanted, they wanted a big wedding and they got it.

The king paid the private costs at Madeleine's and Carl Philip's wedding, the costs of the "official part", for instance the wedding ceremony and security, are paid from the apanage. According to SVT the king pays about 6 million, 3 million is taken from the apanage.
Så mycket kostar prinsbröllopet - Nyheter _ SVT.se
Translation

 

[Meraude]

The king paid the private costs at Madeleine's and Carl Philip's wedding, the costs of the "official part", for instance the wedding ceremony and security, are paid from the apanage. According to SVT the king pays about 6 million, 3 million is taken from the apanage.

Even if a part of the wedding costs are from the appanage and not from the king's own money, the appanage is to cover royal costs. In the case of Victoria's wedding the court got an extra 15 million Swedish crowns to cover the costs of the wedding from the government, as well as other costs were covered by the government and others: Prislappen för kronprinsessan Victoria och Daniel Westlings bröllop: 100 miljoner | Bröllopet | Aftonbladet

 

[LadyFinn]

Even if a part of the wedding costs are from the appanage and not from the king's own money, the appanage is to cover royal costs. In the case of Victoria's wedding the court got an extra 15 million Swedish crowns to cover the costs of the wedding from the government, as well as other costs were covered by the government and others: Prislappen för kronprinsessan Victoria och Daniel Westlings bröllop: 100 miljoner | Bröllopet | Aftonbladet

I know that. It's just that from your message I got the impression that you meant that the king paid Madeleine's and Carl Philip's wedding totally from his own pocket, while it wasn't so. Or in fact, Bertil Ternert told to the press after Madeleine's engagement that the king will pay Madeleine's wedding and no taxpayers' money will be used. But in 2014 at the publishing of the annual report Jan Lindtman told that the official part's costs were paid from the apanage. And now before the wedding he told the same thing.

 

[Meraude]

But in 2014 at the publishing of the annual report Jan Lindtman told that the official part's costs were paid from the apanage.

My guess is that the royal court doesn't really consider the appanage as taxpayers' money, but as wages due for the royal family for doing representation, and that the official parts of the weddings was seen as a part of their representation duties, at least when it comes to the official guests (royals and representatives for the official Sweden). The pre-wedding dinner was private, the wedding representation.

 

[MARG]

I don't think that's entirely true. Victoria's wedding was on a much larger scale and much grander than this. Madeleine's was smaller but that was on her request.

Victoria's wedding was that of the heir to the throne. Nothing more and nothing less.

Absolutely. I saw a german interview yesterday with a well know german royal watcher and Silvia said the same thing again, that they were against it but the parliament decided over their heads just because the women's movement was everywhere. I didn't like the tone how she said it at all. She further said that she didnt want Victoria with the burden having to work and having a family. Sorry, this interview is from 2015, in what world is she still living?? She sounded negative and nostalgic, as if she hadn't understood a thing.

During yesterday's wedding I couldnt help thinking that CG would have been so proud if his son would have been the CP and he tried to give him a party as if he was the CP.

The way the Bernadotte children and their partners are being treated differently by both Silvia & CG is really appalling.

I too believe that King CG still loathes the fact that the succession was an argument he lost. But the first reading in Parliament predated Carl Philip's birth if not conception. The second reading was merely a formalily. After all, had it been contentious in Parliament it would not have passed the second reading. Regardless, that is ancient history and to use that as an explanation of why CP does not seem to have "found himself" yet is a stretch.

However, we all knew where the King stands and now, in 2015, we know where Queen Silvia stands. And it does not appear to be behind the heir. Now that really could have factored into Victoria's stress induced anorexia. It's a bit hard to be a teenage girl coming into adulthood and the responsibilities of who she is when she knows she either doesn't have the support of either of her parents or has their grudging support in pubic.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is not all that difficult. I am neither royal nor noble but I am the only male left in my family. I have only one sister, my father has two sisters (my aunts) and they each have one daughter (my two cousines). I do feel the pressure and the expectation. Unspoken ánd outspoken. Meaning: I must procreate the family's bloodline and surname. My father is already donating chunks from the family properties to me, timely enough to keep it out hands of the claws of the state (succession taxes). He hopes that a new generation will maintain the heritage. So if even in my family (and in so many millions of families around the world) there is an expectation from sons, the same can -of course- be said from Heirs to the throne.

Sweden has gone from the one extreme to the other: from a purely agnatic succession in the male lineage, with exclusion from the succession and with consequences for the titulature when not marrying according the highest standards, to a situation in which "everything is possible" and where the already born Heir to the throne lost his place because the Act was changed with retro-active workings.

Having said that: was it the wedding of the futre King Carl XVII Philip of Sweden indeed, we most likely would not have seen Ms Hellqvist as a partner. That the King and Queen have a strong opinion on their son and his birthright is not so strange. Many families have such a feeling regarding sons, especially the eldest one. The children of Prince Carl Philip will be the new generation of Bernadottes. His sister has given birth to a daughter of Mr Westling. This is the traditional view which was perfectly normal since the Romans started to register citizenship in public rolls (as we all can read in the Bible, telling about Joseph and Mary going to Bethlehem for exactly that registration, summoned by Emperor Augustus...).

 

[Daffodil]

His sister has given birth to a daughter of Mr Westling.

The former Mr Westling is the great-grandson of Brita Westling and Anders Andersson.

 

[Roslyn]

The children of Prince Carl Philip will be the new generation of Bernadottes. His sister has given birth to a daughter of Mr Westling.

Actually, Victoria gave birth to a daughter of Mr Bernadotte. Daniel took Victoria's surname on marriage. He is Olof Daniel Westling Bernadotte.

The former Mr Westling is the great-grandson of Brita Westling and Anders Andersson.

I didn't know that. I love that sort of flexibility. Daniel strikes me as being a man who is confident enough in himself and his masculinity that he does not need to play macho games and it seems it runs in the family. I find that very attractive in a man.

 

[MARG]

I agree, Daniel is very accommodating to the SRF but even better than that, he is a wonderful husband to Victoria and they both share full-time, hands-on, raising of their daughter Estelle, yet another Queen Regnant in-waiting. Royal engagements are statistically only part of their lives.

The King and Queen were very exacting as regards Victoria's choice of Daniel. As each year went by with still no engagement, let alone wedding, but with private photos showing how close they were, a lot of people wondered if the King would ever relent.

The former Mr Westling is the great-grandson of Brita Westling and Anders Andersson.

Can you fill me in on the relevance of the people quoted?