The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > Royal House of Sweden

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #361  
Old 06-18-2015, 07:45 AM
CrownPrincessJava's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: ,, Australia
Posts: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Try to imagine yourself into the King's position. He only holds that position because he is a direct male agnate of a whole series of royal Bernadottes. Until he himself changed it, any non-fullfilment to the strict rules led to an exit from the Swedish Royal House. Even noble ladies as Ebba Munck af Fulkila or Elsa von Rosen were seen as a mésalliance. Their spouses were thrown out of the Swedish succession and the Royal House.

Three of the King's own sisters (whom never held succession rights) were also thrown out of the Royal House because they did not comply with the strict rules. All this has changed, but this does not take away that Carl Philip is the next agnatic male of an illustrious dynasty, a future Pater Familias, and apparently the King (and the Queen) have a strong feeling about that.

By all means and by all accounts and by what we all can see, Crown Princess Victoria has an excellent relationship with her parents and she has their full support. She also has an excellent relationship with her brother. He even agreed to let the Galliera inheritance, which consists of an exquisite art collection and a financial fund, pass to Victoria, although he is the legal inheritor. The reason why Prince Carl Philip rather than his elder sister has, until now, been heir to the Galliera inheritance, is that this is an entail governed by male primogeniture.

We may assume Prince Carl Philip will be compensated for his loss. The Galliera collection contains some sixty Italian works and are among the jewels of the Swedish royal collection. Piero di Cosimo’s “Madonna con il Bambino” is widely considered the greatest masterpiece of the collection, while the financial fund was worth millions already at the time of the death of King Gustaf VI Adolf in 1973.

We will see this in more Royal Houses. In Belgium the Von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha's will end to be a reigning royal family after Elisabeth, despite the fact she has brothers. In Norway the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg will loose its throne after Ingrid-Alexandra, despite there is a male agnate (Sverre Magnus).

In the Netherlands the "Orange-Nassaus" were (are) in reality Von Mecklenburg-Schwerin (Juliana), Zur Lippe-Biesterfeld (Beatrix) and Von Amsberg (Willem-Alexander). But in their case -in contrary to Sweden- there were no males left. It is simply how the King and Queen feel. At the same time they approve that Carl Philip marries with someone as Sofia, tja... it is all not very consistent.
Carl Phillip maybe the next male agnatic, but this will not make him the Head of the dynasty - that will be Victoria. It is the same as with Queen Elizabeth II. Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester is technically the agnatic head of Windsor, but Queen Elizabeth is recognised as the true legal Head of the house
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #362  
Old 06-18-2015, 09:33 AM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 3,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Interesting. I did not know that chauvinist pigs were limited to males... One is never too old to learn.
You are obviously too young to remember all the MCP talk from the 1970s.

Quote:
Also interesting is that when a candidate running for presidency in your country will stand no chance when photo's appear with her proudly showing underwear and tattooes, appearing in reality soaps: she would be slashed in pieces by (social) media. But when it is Sofia, ah... we all suddenly have to sink deep down through our cracking knees.... "Your Royal Highness".

At the moment we have Prime Ministers, not Presidents, but one day we will have the latter. But when our last - and first - female PM was in power, I don't remember her appearing in her underwear or showing tattoos, if she has any. I'm sure she has underwear, but I don't remember any tattoos. And I can't imagine Julia Gillard in a reality soap. However, if she had, or had been, or did, I don't think she would have suffered much in the media. We mock our politicians for incompetence but we tend to be fairly tolerant of their foibles. We tend not to care too much what our leaders do in their private lives. As long as they do their job well, we are prepared to overlook sexual adventures and adultery and a tendency to drink too much, and such things. Actually I think Julia might have been a tad more popular if people thought she posed semi-naked with snakes or appeared on reality TV shows.
__________________

__________________
"That's it then. Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, -- and call off Christmas!!!"
Reply With Quote
  #363  
Old 06-18-2015, 09:41 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,939
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Male? There are female chauvinist pigs out there as well.


LaRae
That is what I thought but psssst.... don't say it too loud.... "political correctness" etc....

Reply With Quote
  #364  
Old 06-18-2015, 09:52 AM
Nice Nofret's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 515
.. I know many more of the male kind ....
Reply With Quote
  #365  
Old 06-18-2015, 10:15 AM
Cris M's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niterói, Brazil
Posts: 847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
That is what I thought but psssst.... don't say it too loud.... "political correctness" etc....

Political correctness nowadays means that you must demand respect to everyone, but you are also free to have no respect for people whose opinions you disagree with, specially conservatives.

I'm a proud conservative and politically incorrect person, and I indent to continue as such. Although I admit I have a soft spot for Princess Sofia (not that she'd be an ideal Queen, but Prince Daniel will never be the ideal Prince Consort either).
__________________
“If a thousand thrones I had, I would give a thousand thrones to get the slaves free in Brazil."

Princess Isabel (1846-1921), Princess Imperial and Regent of the Empire of Brazil, after she signed the Golden Law, in 1888, abolishing slavery in Brazil.
Reply With Quote
  #366  
Old 06-18-2015, 10:24 AM
Cris M's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niterói, Brazil
Posts: 847
I don't think the argument of countless Princesses who have lost their position as first in line to the throne because of younger brothers is good enough. Those Princesses were always heirs presumptives, there was always the assumption they could loose their position at any time.

Princess Caroline of Monaco for example. She was born Hereditary Princess, heir to the throne, but lost the title and the position the following year, after her brother's birth. There was always the possibility that would happen.

Prince Carl Philip, on the other hand, was born Crown Prince, first in line and heir apparent to the Swedish Throne. That there was a new law being passed by the Parliament is irrelevant. By the constitutional order in force at the time of his birth, nothing could take alway his rights as first born son of the King of Sweden (unless he was raised outside the country or converted to another faith).

Yes, I do believe Prince Carl Philip was unjustly stripped of his birth rights, and nothing will change my opinion (I have complete disregard for modern feminist arguments). That said, I'm sure Crown Princess Victoria will be an outstanding Queen and that Sweden will be in good hands.
__________________
“If a thousand thrones I had, I would give a thousand thrones to get the slaves free in Brazil."

Princess Isabel (1846-1921), Princess Imperial and Regent of the Empire of Brazil, after she signed the Golden Law, in 1888, abolishing slavery in Brazil.
Reply With Quote
  #367  
Old 06-18-2015, 10:25 AM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Try to imagine yourself into the King's position. He only holds that position because he is a direct male agnate of a whole series of royal Bernadottes. Until he himself changed it, any non-fullfilment to the strict rules led to an exit from the Swedish Royal House. Even noble ladies as Ebba Munck af Fulkila or Elsa von Rosen were seen as a mésalliance. Their spouses were thrown out of the Swedish succession and the Royal House.

Three of the King's own sisters (whom never held succession rights) were also thrown out of the Royal House because they did not comply with the strict rules. All this has changed, but this does not take away that Carl Philip is the next agnatic male of an illustrious dynasty, a future Pater Familias, and apparently the King (and the Queen) have a strong feeling about that.
Thank you!

I know that many people today feel very strongly about equal rights for women, and that's cool. But they also have to understand King Carl Gustaf was raised in a very conservative environment, where only the men could continue the Bernadotte dynasty. And I believe that he was already an adult before anybody tried to convince him otherwise. And as far as I can tell, he has been supportive of Victoria, even if he personally feels that Carl Philip should have continued to be his first heir.

And I also have to say that when the successions laws were changed in 1979, that was a really huge deal. Not only was Victoria made the crown princess after not having any right in the succession before. But the crown prince was stripped of his title, which was really strange, even if he only was a baby. So I can see how their parents were puzzled by all this. You can of course feel that after thirtyfive years, they should have gotten over it. But they are also the representatives of an old system, which is all about keeping old traditions alive. So I can understand if they still feel that too much was changed too fast.
Reply With Quote
  #368  
Old 06-18-2015, 10:28 AM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cris M View Post
Prince Carl Philip, on the other hand, was born Crown Prince, first in line and heir apparent to the Swedish Throne. That there was a new law being passed by the Parliament is irrelevant. By the constitutional order in force at the time of his birth, nothing could take alway his rights as first born son of the King of Sweden (unless he was raised outside the country or converted to another faith).

Yes, I do believe Prince Carl Philip was unjustly stripped of his birth rights, and nothing will change my opinion (I have complete disregard for modern feminist arguments). That said, I'm sure Crown Princess Victoria will be an outstanding Queen and that Sweden will be in good hands.
I couldn't have said that better myself.
Reply With Quote
  #369  
Old 06-18-2015, 10:57 AM
Pranter's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 3,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cris M View Post
I don't think the argument of countless Princesses who have lost their position as first in line to the throne because of younger brothers is good enough. Those Princesses were always heirs presumptives, there was always the assumption they could loose their position at any time.

Princess Caroline of Monaco for example. She was born Hereditary Princess, heir to the throne, but lost the title and the position the following year, after her brother's birth. There was always the possibility that would happen.

Prince Carl Philip, on the other hand, was born Crown Prince, first in line and heir apparent to the Swedish Throne. That there was a new law being passed by the Parliament is irrelevant. By the constitutional order in force at the time of his birth, nothing could take alway his rights as first born son of the King of Sweden (unless he was raised outside the country or converted to another faith).

Yes, I do believe Prince Carl Philip was unjustly stripped of his birth rights, and nothing will change my opinion (I have complete disregard for modern feminist arguments). That said, I'm sure Crown Princess Victoria will be an outstanding Queen and that Sweden will be in good hands.


Yep, I agree.


LaRae
Reply With Quote
  #370  
Old 06-18-2015, 10:57 AM
LadyFinn's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Southwest, Finland
Posts: 22,549
We have to remember, that the preliminary work for the change was carried out already in 1977-78. It started even before Victoria was born. And the king and queen knew about the process. Carl Philip was not unjustified stripped anything.
Reply With Quote
  #371  
Old 06-18-2015, 11:02 AM
Pranter's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 3,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
That is what I thought but psssst.... don't say it too loud.... "political correctness" etc....


I deal with all that PC crap all the time...I'm conservative, Christian, and pro-Constitution.... and I am a female who thinks feminism (the distorted anti-man femi-nazi type) has done more harm to women and families than good....and you know how women like to eat their own.


LaRae
Reply With Quote
  #372  
Old 06-18-2015, 11:04 AM
Pranter's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 3,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post
.. I know many more of the male kind ....

You must not have met very many rabid feminists then.



LaRae
Reply With Quote
  #373  
Old 06-18-2015, 11:05 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 1,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Agreed. Mistress of the robes, Countess Alice Trolle-Wachtmeister told in an interview around the time of Estelles birth how she and other courtiers was hoping for a boy when the Queen was pregnant for the first time because the Court and the Royal family was aware that a change of law of succession was coming and that the first born child would be the heir to the throne. She also told how gutted and disappointed she felt when it turned out to be a girl but also how she had changed her mind and that Victoria would be a great monarch when it was her turn.
That said, Princess Birgitta in an interview a few months ago told about how she was with the King when he got the message of how the government had decided regarding the succession and his heir and how sad and disappointed he was. Apparently he had still harboured hopes that the changes wouldn't affect his children.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

I think Queen Silvia's position is also very clear. In the interview below to Brazilian TV, she basically says the same thing she said in that most recent 2015 Gernan interview, including the reference to the women's movement of the 1970s. Her attitude, like the King's, is one of resignation, i.e. they both accepted "the will of the people", even though it is clear that she feels that applying the law retroactively was wrong.

I believe it would be unfair though to say that CP Victoria doesn't have her parents' full support now. In fact, in the interview below, the Queen praises Victoria for her preparation and commitment to her role as heiress to the throne. Clearly, Victoria was raised as the heir whereas Carl Philip was not. Victoria's position in the royal house is pretty clear and unambiguous as she is the only child of Carl Gustaf with a household (i.e staff) of her own and takes a full range of state and diplomatic duties that are not shared with her siblings. The family came to terms with the reality imposed by the new law and, as the Queen said again below, Carl Philip also "accepted it" and "everything is fine" now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...oYjEYe-I#t=881
Reply With Quote
  #374  
Old 06-18-2015, 11:16 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 1,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
Carl Phillip maybe the next male agnatic, but this will not make him the Head of the dynasty - that will be Victoria. It is the same as with Queen Elizabeth II. Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester is technically the agnatic head of Windsor, but Queen Elizabeth is recognised as the true legal Head of the house
In my humble opinion, the way to solve that kind of conflict is to no longer associate the Royal House with any particular family. In other words, the law should define who belongs to the Royal House, e.g. the monarch, his/her consort and siblings, and his/her children and grandchildren (with respective consorts if any). The aforementioned persons should not use a last name and should belong simply to the House of xxxx (name of the country inserted, like the designation "House of Belgium" now used by the Belgian Coburgs).

There would be no question then whether Victoria's children are Bernadottes, or, for that matter, whether Queen Elizabeth II's children are "Windsors" or Queen Beatrix' (or Juliana's, or Wilhemina's ) children are Orange-Nassaus . Technically, the answer to all of the previous questions would be "no, they are not", but that has been ignored in practice both in Sweden and in Britain and the Netherlands.
Reply With Quote
  #375  
Old 06-18-2015, 11:30 AM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 3,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furienna View Post
But the crown prince was stripped of his title, which was really strange, even if he only was a baby. So I can see how their parents were puzzled by all this.
His parents should not have been "puzzled" by it, and CP wasn't stripped of anything. He was born into a Sweden in which the process of changing the male primogeniture system was already underway. It was only a matter of time before the parliamentary process was completed. As others have carefully and accurately stated already, but ignored by some, the changes to the law were already underway long before CP was conceived, and, apparently, before Victoria was born. It's not as though it was something that was suddenly foisted on an unsuspecting CG and Silvia.
__________________
"That's it then. Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, -- and call off Christmas!!!"
Reply With Quote
  #376  
Old 06-18-2015, 11:38 AM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,316
Maybe so, but CP was still already born as the crown prince when the new law came. So it would have made sense to let it only affect future generations, like they did it in Norway.
Reply With Quote
  #377  
Old 06-18-2015, 11:39 AM
MichelleQ2's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 1,039
This thread has been a fascinating read. Admittedly, I know very little about the Swedish royal family other than the basics. I pose a question to those more informed ...could Victoria's stress battles growing up and into her role influence a desire to have Estelle be an only child or ...to have a significant gap in age so that Estelle firmly established as the heir?

Estelle has been very visible as a young royal child - Not just in released photographs but in actually attending events. I hate to speculate on something as private a decision as conceiving children. But given Victoria's parents apparently reluctant support of Victoria's role, perhaps she wants to insure that her daughter never has any doubt.
Reply With Quote
  #378  
Old 06-18-2015, 11:56 AM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 3,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furienna View Post
Maybe so, but CP was still already born as the crown prince when the new law came. So it would have made sense to let it only affect future generations, like they did it in Norway.
Why? The law-changing process was already underway when CG and Silvia decided to have another child. Why should the interests of one privileged male infant take priority over the will of Parliament?
__________________
"That's it then. Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, -- and call off Christmas!!!"
Reply With Quote
  #379  
Old 06-18-2015, 12:01 PM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,316
Well, I guess that we'll just have to disagree on this one.
Reply With Quote
  #380  
Old 06-18-2015, 03:35 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 1,010
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
We have to remember, that the preliminary work for the change was carried out already in 1977-78. It started even before Victoria was born. And the king and queen knew about the process. Carl Philip was not unjustified stripped anything.

Exactly. This was not something that was done fast. The work had started well before Victoria was born. The King and Queen and the courtiers knew very well that Victoria was to become Crown Princess on 1 January 1980.
Yet THEY CHOOSED to welcome and baptise Carl Philip in the Crown Princely way. They could have avoided all fuss but they choosed to not do.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
constitution, constitutional change, crown princess victoria, prince carl philip, succession, sweden


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What Would You Change? Lena Royal Chit Chat 21 01-11-2015 08:09 PM
When did your opinion of Diana change and why? ysbel Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 1113 06-06-2011 12:20 AM
Change of name of our community to TRF... Andy R Forum Announcements and Admin 2 08-29-2004 05:29 PM




Popular Tags
april 2016 ascot 2016 best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit catherine middleton style coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events duchess of cambridge duchess of cornwall's fashion dutch state visit e-mail fashion poll grand duke jean greece kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats princess victoria celebrates her 39th birthday queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania queen rania in the uk queen rania in the us royal fashion september 2016 state visit state visit to denmark state visit to norway succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:33 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises