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  #21  
Old 04-13-2006, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by fraxales
As for the mantillas at Easter time, you say they are a sight to be seen...but can you see beyond the first ONE???? Do you have any Spanish links? You seem to know quite a bit...

Back to Sweden, with all that pomp and glamour, do you know if their coronations were symobic or were they actually crowned?
My great-grandmother was from Spain, and I inherited my matilla from her through grandma and mum :) I've been in Spain a couple of times, once with a group of friends during Easter in Seville (amazing!) and I made them all dress up and wear mantillas (one of my friends still refused to wear anything but tennis-shoes, which totally singled us out as not being from there, but we had a great deal of fun. I don't have pictures from that trip because instead we took a camcorder - great idea until my friend lost the tape....(yes, the same that wore the sneakers.... she's a bit hard-headed, but she's my best friend...) Wearing a mantilla, with sneakers, and holding a camcorder didn't make her any less conspicuos either...

And how did we see above the mantilla and combs? LOL (nice one) I'm not sure I can answer that... it's mostly a sea of blonde and chantilly lace draped on peoples heads... I imagine if everyone were to sway their heads from side to side it would be like a field of hay in....ok maybe I got a bit carried away LOL... sorry. Memories...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fraxales
Back to Sweden, with all that pomp and glamour, do you know if their coronations were symobic or were they actually crowned?
I have read that they were crowned in a church cermony. This was done while seated in the silver-coronation chair. The most famous coronation picture I know of is of King Gustav III. If you google:images his name, in the first page of thumbnails you'll see the coronation scene.
The painting doesn't have a lot of definition (where went the Rembrandts? :) ) so it's hard to make out who is who aside from the King, Queen beneath a dais in the back ground, and the Bishop/Archbishop and Minister who are placing the crown on his head...
There are however, a couple of other figures (I just googled the image to make sure of what I was talking about) that are wearing robes and coronets.... I wonder who they are? Did the nobility wear coronets and coronation robes too or just the crown prince and other children of a king?
Oh Fraxales, you've revived the thread! Now it's a mission to find out who these other robed individuals are and what where they wearing and why....

I have a book on the swedish crown jewels with pictures of some of the crowns (including I believe 2 of those worn by the Crown Princes in the 18c.) but it's all in Swedish - which I don't as of yet, speak....
I also have some photocopies from a book by Lord Twining that a friend made for me from one of the rare copies that exist - in New York - of such precious book. In one page are about 6 pictures of these princely crowns (open, radiated, with the vassa badge alternating, with an embroidered silk skull-cap insert, and adorned with pearls and diamonds.... All of that is in one of my platic boxes marked "research" up in the attic, but I'll see if I get it down sometime - if it be of interest to anybody....
The existence of so many examples of these coronets would reaffirm that they were worn.... but with what robes? I wonder if all or any of these are in display at one of the royal museums in Sweden.... I know that the Coronation Crowns, orbs, sceptres (and key) are in display - and can be seen in the RF's official website.
Now that I remember (though it may just be for another country) I think I have in a disk some scans of "burial" or "funeral" regalia made for some deceased monarchs... I think Swedish.... they were set with smokey-quartz and black stones and made of less precious material.... I have too find that too... I always go off-topic either way, so it's ok I guess...
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  #22  
Old 04-13-2006, 12:35 PM
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Does anybody know when they stoped wearing state robes to the Solemn Openining of Parliament.
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  #23  
Old 04-13-2006, 12:37 PM
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Here's a cropped version of the painting depicting Gustav III's coronation - by Pilo.
It's the best (in terms of color/resolution/definition) I could find that showed the actual crowning.... the real picture is much larger and encompasses quite a large view of the church/cathedral where it took place and of its participants.... a bit hazy, tht paintor's technique, but interesting none-the-less:


cropped pic from the weltchronik website
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  #24  
Old 04-13-2006, 01:52 PM
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Do they still wear these robes today? And if so when would they do so? Has any member of todays RF worn it?
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  #25  
Old 04-13-2006, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Princejohnny25
Does anybody know when they stoped wearing state robes to the Solemn Openining of Parliament.
I am no Swede (tho I wouldn't mind!) but I would hazard a guess and say the moment King Gustav VI Adolf died - I believe it was around that time that they "reformed" the monarchy and the King, essentially, became a figurehead (probably because they felt Carl XVI Gustav was too young?).

And, Robby86, I don't think these robes are worn any more (certainly have not seen coverage of them in my time). These days, the most glittering occasion in the royal calendar is the Nobel Prize awards ceremony...sadly.:(

[I may be wrong; my interest in royalty waned a few years back as it was such a battle for any information. Now that we have the internet, and this forum in particular, the spark has been relit!]
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  #26  
Old 04-13-2006, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robby86
Do they still wear these robes today? And if so when would they do so? Has any member of todays RF worn it?
No, the old version of the Court Dress is not used anymore in our time. The last time the old version was used was at the Solemn Opening of Parliament in 1974 when it was held for the last time at the Royal Palace, in the old fashioned way with a speech from the throne and a very pompous ceremony. But, the old fashioned Court Dress was never abolished by a royal decision, though it was just stopped to be used when the Constitution was modernised and after Carl Gustaf became King and there was no Queen and Princess Sibylla had passed away.

The new, present being, Court Dress was introduced in the 80's.
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  #27  
Old 04-13-2006, 03:53 PM
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It's little pitty that they were changed, but imagine, today Royal Ladies in old Robes of State...
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  #28  
Old 04-15-2006, 10:21 PM
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Oh, I think they would look beautiful - though I must admit, that perhaps a bit anachronistic - which may sound almost hypocritical of me (such a stiff suporter of the old guard) but it's the truth:
The monarchy is not at fault, perhaps I'd venture to say it is society at large: people now-a-days tend towards informality, comfort - things not compatible with a ceremonious royal enviroment which calls for exactly the opposite... even England, probably will not hold the traditional coronations in the upcoming reigns (despite what they will say) because truly times have changed. One hundred years ago - people still were bound by the rules of etiquette and propriety, people knew (or at least aknowledged) their place and that of their "betters" - but today we live in an otherwise irreverent society of democrats/republicans/socialists which little by little (in their respective ways) are doing away with our more traditional institutions. Taking away their power and leaving them ceremonial roles has been the first step - social pressure to reduce the ceremoniousness of the monarchies, is the second step - what is left? The monarchies of today face a precarious future, for all they have left is the support of their people: so long as they have a high enough approval rating, they should be fine (but should that ever drop... which occasionnally all dynasties have borne an "unpopular" monarch... it would be their end.
Of course, us royalists will forever be supporting the monarchies, but in a world of numbers, we perhaps are too little against the mass - could we do anything to prevent this eradication? I ask.

I ask because such a question would seem relevant in a forum in which we "aprove" or "dis-aprove" of the choices the members of these various royal families make - it is more than frivolous talk about the hats or jewels they chose to wear at a certain event - we judge every action and decition they make... most of us would agree that they are not "royal" because they decend from Gods, or have a divine right to be there, rather we recognize WE keep them were they are... some of them are ripped to shreads, and really, what fault have they to be who they are?

I know this has nothing to do with this thread (we keep it light over here in Sweden :) ) but I was looking over some other threads which are in the worst taste... it made me think and reflect - so I posted - didn't mean to - but sorta-glad I did....

So imagining the royal ladies of today in the old-royal robes? I think they would look fantastic, but sadly "not with the times" - I just wish that "the times" had still a royal tribune (carpeted and all) for our royals, but it seems that rather than us dressing to honour their presence, we've invited them to join us down here in the world of tennis-shoes and baseball-caps to seat in the plastic seats along ourselves... it comforts us that they are down at our level now - just that once you come down here, it's hard to go back up there (most people woul even prefer this never to happen) whoch means that all the beautiful ceremonies, crowns, regalia, palaces, and things which are so admirable - become mere museum-pieces = viewed by all as artifacts, but no longer enjoyed by any, personnally...

It's a paradox: if the royals move with the times and concede to give up certain things, they have a chance to remain where they are - yet by "making concessions" they are eliminating their stronghold and place...
it's a critique on the times, not the monarchy....

On a lighter note! I did find the pictures of the coronets of the various Princes and I just need to scan them and post them - if anyone is interested in vieweing them? They span from 18c to 20c.
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  #29  
Old 04-21-2006, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SaxeundGotha
It's a paradox: if the royals move with the times and concede to give up certain things, they have a chance to remain where they are - yet by "making concessions" they are eliminating their stronghold and place... it's a critique on the times, not the monarchy....
Gee....how deep! Your longer comment was so heavy, it almost dragged me down... That was obviously a result of your posting comments at four-thirty in the morning, SaxeundGotha!!! :)

I agree with you on your views. It's sad that no-one is perfect and, yes, at some stage you'll have a monarch that destroys all the good work that had been done previously (present examples seem to be the kings of Nepal and Tonga, though I haven't followed their problems closely).

However, the republicans can all say what they like but when it comes to meeting a royal or being exposed to any prestige/pomp associated with royalty, they're first in the queue! We should not look at monarchs as glorified gods but what they really are today: the representation or embodiment of their people and their (unique) cultures. [It is my interest on royalty that has taught me so much about the different cultures, ceremonies and traditions.] At all times, whether good or bad, their is someone who'll represent their country who is proud of it and its traditions, who'll feel something quite personally when disaster strikes (as we all do) and to whom the people can look in times of distress (we only need to think on the Spanish royal family after the Madrid bombings, the Swedes after the tsunami). They have their uses in a way, I believe, no president or elected leader would (which in most cases is carried out as a popularity contest in order to win the next election and, therefore, is nothing more than personal gain). They are particularly welcome, I would think, in places like Belgium where there is strife between the different peoples and can helpo cement that bond. No president of Thailand or Great Britain would have the respect of the people in the way their respective monarchs currently do.

The republicans are also quick to trash previous monarchs but in many ways it is thanks to those "tyrants" that they have a legacy they can be proud of and enjoy prosperity in today's world; one only needs to look at France for all that...you can't tell me their revered etiquette and cuisine are the result of the revolution and the one thing on EVERY tourist's itinerary is the Palace of Versailles! So, they should count their shekels....

Also, I believe the monarchy engenders a pride in the people, an incentive to improve oneself and society in general. It has been absolutely terrible to live in a part of the world where you witness, every day, the destruction of that society, that respect, that order, and life, in general, that one used to aspire to. Today, certainly in my world, it is a heartless, cruel existence where people have become animals, basically - if not in deed then certainly in motive. And all because there's nothing, nor anyone, we as a nation can look to because we're so divided and more worried about survival. And the saddest thing is that you realize the entire world will eventually go the same way, it's just a matter of time.

Sorry if I sound so down but I hope you understand why I think Monarchy gets the thumbs up and republicans their heads off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaxeundGotha
On a lighter note! I did find the pictures of the coronets of the various Princes and I just need to scan them and post them - if anyone is interested in vieweing them? They span from 18c to 20c.
Well, what you waiting for?

I got so side-tracked with my previous comment that I forgot to ask why shouldn't the ladies of today wear "old robes"??? We forget that royalty, like all things, adapts and changes as the times require, so I think we could have seen some interesting adaptations in that regard. Also, after having watched the video of that Solemn Opening of Parliament, I have come to the conclusion that the real reason for abolishing the ceremony at the palace is that the old politicians got fed up of trapsing that great distance through the snowy conditions!

I didn't know what people meant by feeling terrible about killing a thread...my apologies.
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  #30  
Old 01-27-2013, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by fraxales View Post
I agree with you - the speculation IS fun: almost like detective work...

I'm not sure who Princess Maria was (post #8), nor the "pretty princess" (#2) , was but were they not also "of the blood" (immediate family of the king)? The one in post #2: it's unusual to see someone dressed like that, bearing flowers. Was that not, perhaps, her wedding? (I know the black sounds absurd...)

The royal courts of Europe adhered to (still do, really, though probably not "to the letter" these days) accepted rules of protocol (whether written or not) and the use of tiara was certainly reserved for married princesses. I think it still is - that is why it was highly unusual for Maxima to have worn a tiara at Haakon's wedding in Oslo and the reason Mary did not wear one for that state visit (think it was the Grand Duke of Luxembourg?) was because she was engaged but not married. (Margrethe could easily have tossed her one, otherwise...)

[On post #16, I wonder if the Princesses would have worn a tiara had they been married, if it was something only reserved for Sybilla because she was "Crown Princess" (not sure if at that time) or even if the girls would have participated to that degree had they already married? Just very interesting...]

Coming back to the use of veils, it is interesting to note that women who meet the pope (certailnly at the Vatican) are required to wear black, veil - only Catholic queens are allowed to wear white but veil is still mandatory. Also, the dress code for the ladies attending Queen Elizabeth's coronation was white, with tiara. If you didn't possess one, you were required to wear a veil.
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  #31  
Old 02-01-2013, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by fraxales View Post
I am no Swede (tho I wouldn't mind!) but I would hazard a guess and say the moment King Gustav VI Adolf died - I believe it was around that time that they "reformed" the monarchy and the King, essentially, became a figurehead (probably because they felt Carl XVI Gustav was too young?).]
The change of the opening of the Swedish parliament happened in 1975, two years after the death of king Gustav VI Adolf, but it had nothing to do with his death or that king Carl Gustaf being considered "too young", the reforms would have taken place even if the old king had been alive. There were several changes made in the "Riksdagsordningen" of 1974, the law that rules how the Swedish parliament functions, as well as the introduction of a new "Regeringsform"of 1974, one of four constitution laws in Sweden. One reason why a reform of the old Riksdagsordning was necessary was that Sweden had gone from a two chamber parliament to a one chamber parliament in 1971. One of the changes made was that the opening of the parliament was moved from January to September.

The last Swedish royal lady wearing the old court dress was princess Christina in January 1974, you can see her at 35 minutes into this film from the opening of the parliament: Riksdagens högtidliga öppnande 1974 | SVT Play
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  #32  
Old 02-01-2013, 02:50 PM
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Thank you for posting that link,I for one much prefer the old court dress and rituals compared to the modern version which has been stripped of so much old rituals and traditions!
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  #33  
Old 02-01-2013, 02:55 PM
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I think that's too bad that the Swedish Opening of Parliament changed. From the video posted, it looked like it was such a regal ceremony.

I agree, An Ard Ri.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:14 PM
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I think that's too bad that the Swedish Opening of Parliament changed. From the video posted, it looked like it was such a regal ceremony.

I agree, An Ard Ri.
The old Opening of the parliament was a great show, but more suitable for a absolute monarchy, not so much for a representative democracy.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:33 PM
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I guess with any topic here,opinions will vary.I look at such old footage with historical nostalgia,but thankfully the Swedish Monarchy has still preserved some pomp and majesty.
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  #36  
Old 02-01-2013, 03:46 PM
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Well, I do understand people have different views on this kind of thing. I like the way The Queen opens Parliament in her State Robes and wearing The Imperial State Crown. I just think it's good to see a piece of old history in todays modern world.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:49 PM
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The old Opening of the parliament was a great show, but more suitable for a absolute monarchy, not so much for a representative democracy.
I agree with you, totally.
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