Royal Roles & Titles for the Spouses of Victoria, Carl Philip & Madeleine

[nascarlucy]

Well then rob 2008 you wouldn't be allowed to marry into their family then as you list yourself as a commoner.

 

[rob2008]

Well then rob 2008 you wouldn't be allowed to marry into their family then as you list yourself as a commoner.

I know my place (and Madeleine is very sweet).

 

[HRHofNothing]

I think that the future Duchess of Värmland and Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland should both get the Swedish princely titles because wives of princes are naturally princesses and husbands of princesses should become princes because of equal primogeniture.

Never Happen.

In this day and age all RF's are trying to control the size of the Royal House by controlling who gets a HRH. If Jonas had married Madeline, he would surely have not become an HRH and neither would have any children from the union. I think the same will hold true for Madeline's future spouse. A wife of Carl-Philip will definitely become a HRH but their children would probably have to settle for a HH (like Joachim's children in Denmark). Victoria's children will probably be the only ones with the HRH.

 

[rob2008]

I think the opposite should apply.

If daughters can now precede sons in inheritance then a further result of the feminist movement has to be that Princes of the blood should not give their status and title to spouses. If you give every spouse a title then there is no distinction and you end up with title inflation. Anyway marrying someone doesnt take skill that needs to be recognised.

 

[Esmerelda]

We now know that Madeleine's husband will be a Duke. As for Carl Philip's wife, she'll be a Princess or a Duchess (or nothing if he marries someone absolutely outrageous, a convicted murderer, say and Madeleine would also lose her title if she does that). I guess we'll have to wait till he gets engaged to see. If Jonas could keep his job, I don't see why Carl Philip's wife wouldn't be able to. She might prefer to do royal duties, of course.

As for the children, I don't know if the ducal titles are/would become hereditary. I wouldn't be that surprised if Carl Philip's children weren't Princes and Princesses since in Holland, the children of Queen Beatrix's younger sons are Counts/Countesses. They might follow the norwegian model where only Victoria's oldest child will be HRH and her other children HH (like Ingrid Alexandra and Sverre Magnus). Everyone seems to be 'downsizing'.

 

[Leslie2006]

I think Carl Philip's future wife would be a Princess as well as a Duchess. Princess X of Sweden, Duchess of Varmland - similar to that of Prince Daniel's title, it being the male equivalent of Victoria's. As for children, they would probably simply be Prince/ss X of Sweden, and the eldest, particularly the child of Victoria and Daniel would probably be given a ducal title at birth; as for the rest of them, I've no idea. For Carl Philip and Madeleine's children, they would be just Prince/ss X of Sweden.

 

[Stefan]

We now know that Madeleine's husband will be a Duke. As for Carl Philip's wife, she'll be a Princess or a Duchess (or nothing if he marries someone absolutely outrageous, a convicted murderer, say and Madeleine would also lose her title if she does that). I guess we'll have to wait till he gets engaged to see. If Jonas could keep his job, I don't see why Carl Philip's wife wouldn't be able to. She might prefer to do royal duties, of course.

As for the children, I don't know if the ducal titles are/would become hereditary. I wouldn't be that surprised if Carl Philip's children weren't Princes and Princesses since in Holland, the children of Queen Beatrix's younger sons are Counts/Countesses. They might follow the norwegian model where only Victoria's oldest child will be HRH and her other children HH (like Ingrid Alexandra and Sverre Magnus). Everyone seems to be 'downsizing'.

Most likely a future wife of Carl Philip will be HRH Princess of Seden, Duchess of Värmland. As for this ducal title he can not be inherited by any of the children as the swedish ducal titles are personal. As for children we will have to wait and see. In the past children of Princess all became HRH Prince/Princess and the sons also an ducal title. The problem is that Carl Gustaf can not create noble titles so he can not give them another new title like it was done in the Netherlands for Constantijn's and Friso's chidlren. He can only regulate the titles of the members of the Royal House.

 

[Esmerelda]

Most likely a future wife of Carl Philip will be HRH Princess of Seden, Duchess of Värmland. As for this ducal title he can not be inherited by any of the children as the swedish ducal titles are personal. As for children we will have to wait and see. In the past children of Princess all became HRH Prince/Princess and the sons also an ducal title. The problem is that Carl Gustaf can not create noble titles so he can not give them another new title like it was done in the Netherlands for Constantijn's and Friso's chidlren. He can only regulate the titles of the members of the Royal House.

He gave his children ducal titles didn't he? Or were they from the government?

 

[Stefan]

He gave his children ducal titles didn't he? Or were they from the government?

Yes the King gave these one to hem. These are the only on he is allowed to give and they are personal and can not be inherited.

 

[janb]

Yes trhe King gave these one to hem. These are the only on ehe is allowed to give and they are personal and can not be inherited.

And can only be given to members of the Royal House. Ducal titles in Sweden are just for the Royal House and are no longer heridary*.

*They used to be but the first tries (in the 13th and 16th century) all ended with only one of the old kings son's surviving, his brothers sons dead, in exile or in custody of the new king (and without ducal title) and the country in a less than pristine condition (like after a Civil war). So Sweden no longer make the Ducal titles hereditary it also stopped giving out actual Dukedoms (iow Dukedoms where the Duke\Duchess actually hold some kind of power).

 

[Furienna]

Hmm... That is true. I've never heard of a Swedish prince or princess inheriting a ducal title. Instead, all princes have been given a ducal title of his own at birth. (Princesses only were granted this starting with Victoria and Madeleine, the current king's daughters).

 

[Josefine]

Its fun to real the se old threads what members thought then and how it is now

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Prins Carl Philip och Prins Daniel på Idrottsgalan - Sveriges Kungahus

Prins Carl Philip och Prins Daniel på Idrottsgalan

Prins Carl Philips prisutdelning sändes från Kungliga slottet och Prins Daniels från Haga slott. Foto: Victor Ericsson och Sara Friberg/Kungl. Hovstaterna

Måndagen den 18 januari medverkade Prins Carl Philip och Prins Daniel vid Idrottsgalan.​

It has always been nonsensical in terms of European orders of precedence that Prince Daniel has continually had to give way to Prince Carl Philip. But following the announcement in 2019 that Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine's official assignments would decrease in the future and the focus would shift to the King Couple and Crown Princess Couple, it has become even more absurd that it the King still insists on "Prince Carl Philip and Prince Daniel" rather than "Prince Daniel and Prince Carl Philip".

King Juan Carlos I of Spain was said to be in a similar position of not getting along with the spouse of his heir. But, as far as I know, King Juan Carlos put his supposed feelings to the side and awarded the then-Princess of Asturias the precedence that was due to her as the wife of the heir to the throne. Unlike Prince Daniel, Princess Letizia never was relegated to walking or standing behind Infanta Elena, awarded lower honors than Infanta Elena, or had her name placed after Infanta Elena's in official guestlists and communiqués.

The King would do well to reflect and look to the example of his former Spanish colleague.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The Swedish Committee of the Constitution also sees that the flag days only apply to the birthday and name day of the Head of state and heir to the throne. This would, in turn, mean that, for example, Prince Daniel can not get a raised flag when he turns years.

https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/kungligt/ku-vill-begransa-anslaget-till-den-vaxande-kungafamiljen/

I don't know about the specific issue of flag days, but there is an obvious difference between Silvia and Daniel in the sense that Silvia is the Queen of Sweden (Sveriges Drottning) and styled Majesty, whereas Daniel, even when Victoria is Queen, will probably be only a Prince and a Royal Highness (at best, he will be given a title of Prince Consort like Prince Henrik of Denmark).

That is not a peculiarity of Sweden, but applies to all European kingdoms in their unequal treatment of make and female spouses of monarchs.

the point with the proposed new Swedish law regulating the use, both official and private, of flags is that when the next monarch ascends to the throne the flag days will be limited to the monarch and the heir only. It has nothing to do with Daniel personally, his status, his gender or his titles.

But why did Parliament not attain the same decrease in the number of royal flag days through limiting them to the monarch and the monarch's spouse only? In European royal protocol, the spouse of the monarch traditionally outranks the heir.

If it has nothing to do with Daniel, then I am unclear on why the law is not planned to have effect immediately, but rather have its effects postponed until Daniel rather than Silvia will be the consort who is affected.

In addition, the remark from Hans Ekström MP that "we ought to think about whether it is reasonable for the birthday and name day of the boy from Ockelbo to become flag days" seems to have a classist slant. Perhaps I am misconstruing Mr. Ekström, but on what other basis is it less reasonable for "a boy from Ockelbo" than a "girl from São Paulo and Heidelberg" to have her birthday become a flag day?

 

[MARG]

Classist indeed. Just when you think Daniel has done more than enough as the Crown Princess' husband and has, not unlike Prince Philip of the UK, carved out a niche for himself serving and representing not only the Royal Family, but the Country itself, along comes a classist snob wanting to "put him in his place" and that he is from Ocklebo means he is lesser person, a peasant no less.

With a statement such as that, anyone voting with him nails their ugly colours to the mast and one day Victoria will be Queen . . . and she and Daniel are a very obvious team, a very loving and overtly supportive co-dependant Crown Princely couple. If that little snot thinks to lower Daniel's position I don't fancy his chances.

 

[Mbruno]

In addition, the remark from Hans Ekström MP that "we ought to think about whether it is reasonable for the birthday and name day of the boy from Ockelbo to become flag days" seems to have a classist slant. Perhaps I am misconstruing Mr. Ekström, but on what other basis is it less reasonable for "a boy from Ockelbo" than a "girl from São Paulo and Heidelberg" to have her birthday become a flag day?

What party does Mr. Ekström belong to? I imagine he must be far right.

 

[JR76]

But why did Parliament not attain the same decrease in the number of royal flag days through limiting them to the monarch and the monarch's spouse only? In European royal protocol, the spouse of the monarch traditionally outranks the heir.

If it has nothing to do with Daniel, then I am unclear on why the law is not planned to have effect immediately, but rather have its effects postponed until Daniel rather than Silvia will be the consort who is affected.

In addition, the remark from Hans Ekström MP that "we ought to think about whether it is reasonable for the birthday and name day of the boy from Ockelbo to become flag days" seems to have a classist slant. Perhaps I am misconstruing Mr. Ekström, but on what other basis is it less reasonable for "a boy from Ockelbo" than a "girl from São Paulo and Heidelberg" to have her birthday become a flag day?

Most likely because the spouse of the monarch has no constitutional role. Regarding the change of the Flag law I think that they wait to enforce it out of respect for the Queen and to not step on the King's toes. It's worth noting that this is only one part in a big reform regarding the use of the Swedish flag and the use of flags on public buildings and places.

What party does Mr. Ekström belong to? I imagine he must be far right.

Hans Ekström is a Social democrat. What he says about "the boy from Ockelbo" does not sound classist at all in Swedish. On the contrary the description is almost endearing.

 

[Mbruno]

Hans Ekström is a Social democrat. What he says about "the boy from Ockelbo" does not sound classist at all in Swedish. On the contrary the description is almost endearing.

I guess there is a cultural misunderstanding going on here then. In other countries, e.g. in the US, it would sound very classist and snobbish to say that. In fact, a politician would probably get in trouble with the press if he/she said something similar.



I also confess I'm surprised Mr. Elskström is a Social Democrat. Again, probably a cultural misunderstanding on my part.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Regarding the change of the Flag law I think that they wait to enforce it out of respect for the Queen and to not step on the King's toes.

I can understand that. But if enforcing the changed law for Silvia would be considered disrespectful to her and/or the King, it raises the question of why the MPs do not have the same concerns about disrespecting Daniel and/or the Crown Princess.

What he says about "the boy from Ockelbo" does not sound classist at all in Swedish. On the contrary the description is almost endearing.

Thanks for clarifying Mr. Ekström's tone. Being an English speaker, my reaction was the same as that of Mbruno (and not only in the US, as he mentioned, but even in the monarchist UK, I suspect it would not sound endearing to Britons if a British MP referred to "the girl from Berkshire" while he argued that the Duchess of Cambridge should not be entitled to the same ceremonial treatment as previous consorts), so it seems this is one of those expressions which is lost in translation or cultural difference.

 

[JR76]

I can understand that. But if enforcing the changed law for Silvia would be considered disrespectful to her and/or the King, it raises the question of why the MPs do not have the same concerns about disrespecting Daniel and/or the Crown Princess.

The change has to start somewhere and removing the privilege from the Queen who's had a flag day in her honour for almost 50 years is, at least to me, much more disrespectful than to not give it to someone who's never had the privilege before. I personally don't see why it's necessary to remove the privilege for the spouse of the monarch at all but I am in general behind the reform of the flag regulations.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The Government's Proposition on the revised Order System snd the Public Flag Days was today handed over to the Riksdag. The MPs have until May 4th to write motions before it is handled in the Constitional Committe and after that in the Chamber.

No major (or none) changes from what we already know:
https://riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-la...rnt-offentligt-beloningssystem-och-de_H903232

So the Royal Court (in other words, the King) requested that Queen Silvia's birthday continue to be marked as a public flag day during the reign of Queen Victoria, even though Prince Daniel's birthday will not be a flag day during Queen Victoria's reign under the new regulations. However, the Government disagreed with the Royal Court's proposal because it views it as "inconsistent" to honor the birthday of (dowager) Queen Silvia but not the birthday of the reigning monarch's spouse.

I fully agree with the Government, but it surprises me that they did not simply agree to the Royal Court's proposal, as it seems the Government normally gives the King free rein except in matters involving public financing.

The change has to start somewhere and removing the privilege from the Queen who's had a flag day in her honour for almost 50 years is, at least to me, much more disrespectful than to not give it to someone who's never had the privilege before. I personally don't see why it's necessary to remove the privilege for the spouse of the monarch at all but I am in general behind the reform of the flag regulations.

You are right, of course. I suppose I just feel it is a bit of a missed opportunity that as a consequence of Daniel being the first consort affected by the reform, no consort of a reigning Queen, male consort, Swedish consort or middle-class consort will ever receive the same honor as the "traditional" consorts of the past, when the same reduction in flag days could have been achieved by eliminating the birthday of the crown prince/ss, who would still receive her or his flag day when she or he succeeded as monarch.

I also wonder whether the parliamentary committee would have made the same decision if Carl Philip and Sofia had been Crown Prince and Crown Princess.

 

[Somebody]

Indeed somewhat surprised that the government didn't just go along with the king's non-sensical approach: "my wife should always have a flag day but my daughter's husband can do without"... And yes, he might have requested something different for his son's wife had he been the future king...

I personally don't see why the monarch's spouse cannot have a flag day but to have the former spouse but not the current makes no sense at all. What would be the problem to have a flag day for previous, current and future monarch and spouses? That's at a maximum 6 but more likely 4 most of the time.

 

[JR76]

Indeed somewhat surprised that the government didn't just go along with the king's non-sensical approach: "my wife should always have a flag day but my daughter's husband can do without"... And yes, he might have requested something different for his son's wife had he been the future king...

I personally don't see why the monarch's spouse cannot have a flag day but to have the former spouse but not the current makes no sense at all. What would be the problem to have a flag day for previous, current and future monarch and spouses? That's at a maximum 6 but more likely 4 most of the time.

So the Royal Court (in other words, the King) requested that Queen Silvia's birthday continue to be marked as a public flag day during the reign of Queen Victoria, even though Prince Daniel's birthday will not be a flag day during Queen Victoria's reign under the new regulations. However, the Government disagreed with the Royal Court's proposal because it views it as "inconsistent" to honor the birthday of (dowager) Queen Silvia but not the birthday of the reigning monarch's spouse.

I fully agree with the Government, but it surprises me that they did not simply agree to the Royal Court's proposal, as it seems the Government normally gives the King free rein except in matters involving public financing.




You are right, of course. I suppose I just feel it is a bit of a missed opportunity that as a consequence of Daniel being the first consort affected by the reform, no consort of a reigning Queen, male consort, Swedish consort or middle-class consort will ever receive the same honor as the "traditional" consorts of the past, when the same reduction in flag days could have been achieved by eliminating the birthday of the crown prince/ss, who would still receive her or his flag day when she or he succeeded as monarch.

I also wonder whether the parliamentary committee would have made the same decision if Carl Philip and Sofia had been Crown Prince and Crown Princess.

This has nothing to do with Daniel being a man, middle-class (his mother-in-law was also middle-class) nor is it an attempt by the King to have a dig at him. The Court in general agrees with the reduction of flag days, but wanted an exemption made for the Queen for life. Personally I'm behind the reform which aims to streamline flag days to days with democratic and constitutional significance and some religious holidays but would have wanted to see spouse of the monarch honoured with a flag day while their spouse is on the throne. That said, I understand that only the monarch and the heir has a constitutional role.
What does surprise me a lot is that the Gustav Adolf day on November 6 is retained as a flag day. The day is not a holiday, but commemorates the day King Gustav II Adolf fell in the Battle of Lützen in 1632.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

It would be nice for Prince Daniel to have a flag day to signify all the respect he deserves for all of his efforts and dedication he puts forth in his princely duties. Has any news reporter brought up the idea of Daniel being known as King Daniel when Victoria becomes the Queen Regnant?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

This has nothing to do with Daniel being a man, middle-class (his mother-in-law was also middle-class) nor is it an attempt by the King to have a dig at him.

In the section mentioning Daniel being the future first male and first middle-class consort of a monarch (in modern times) I was discussing my own hopes, not what the Parliament or King may have been attempting. Or were you answering my subsequent question "I also wonder whether the parliamentary committee would have made the same decision if Carl Philip and Sofia had been Crown Prince and Crown Princess"? Am I correct to assume you believe the answer is "yes"?

Regarding "his mother-in-law was also middle-class": I have read in the Swedish media about the doubts concerning the supposed lack of sophistication of Daniel's background, but nothing like it for Silvia, so my impression is that for many Swedes Silvia is considered to belong to a different class than Daniel.

What does surprise me a lot is that the Gustav Adolf day on November 6 is retained as a flag day. The day is not a holiday, but commemorates the day King Gustav II Adolf fell in the Battle of Lützen in 1632.

Interesting, since part of the reasoning offered for eliminating royal name days as flag days is that with celebration of name days on the wane, members of the public may lack understanding of the significance of royal name days. Does the average member of the public have a deep understanding of the Battle of Lützen?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Nice that Prince Daniel went to sit by his wife's side after Pss Estelle left. I never understood why they keep putting him on the 2nd row. No other RF does that to the spouse of the heir.

Obviously the King wants that Victoria and Estelle sit with him and queen Silvia in the first row, because they sat that way last year too.
https://www.sollidensessions.se/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/sollidensessions3-768x512.jpg

I was aware that Prince Daniel has always been seated in the second row at the Nobel Prize ceremony, even during the period when the Crown Princess sat in the front row, but I hadn't realized he was relegated to the second row even at his own wife's birthday concerts. (Edited to add: That is incorrect as the quoted posts do not refer to the birthday concert. See Stefan's correction below.)

Surely this arrangement cannot continue into the next reign?

 

[Stefan]

I was aware that Prince Daniel has always been seated in the second row at the Nobel Prize ceremony, even during the period when the Crown Princess sat in the front row, but I hadn't realized he was relegated to the second row even at his own wife's birthday concerts.

but he isn't seated in the second row at his wife's birthday concert, as can be seen in this pic from this year's Concert
https://www.imago-images.de/bild/st/0162836568/w.jpg

 

[Tatiana Maria]

but he isn't seated in the second row at his wife's birthday concert, as can be seen in this pic from this year's Concert
https://www.imago-images.de/bild/st/0162836568/w.jpg

Apologies, I confused the Solliden summer concert with the birthday concert at Solliden. Thank you for correcting me. I withdraw the part of my comment referring to the birthday concert and leave it at the comment about the past Nobel ceremonies.

 

[Silverpot]

1. Regarding "his mother-in-law was also middle-class": I have read in the Swedish media about the doubts concerning the supposed lack of sophistication of Daniel's background, but nothing like it for Silvia, so my impression is that for many Swedes Silvia is considered to belong to a different class than Daniel.



2. Interesting, since part of the reasoning offered for eliminating royal name days as flag days is that with celebration of name days on the wane, members of the public may lack understanding of the significance of royal name days. Does the average member of the public have a deep understanding of the Battle of Lützen?

1. I don't think it's normal for Swedes to think in terms of class. Silvia has been Queen for almost fifty years by now so she has earned a unique status. Not many people, if any, are holding Daniel's background against him. We're a solidly middle class society.


2. I don't get the impression that the young generation has a "deep understanding" about anything, but at least we get a special Gustaf Adolf pastry on that day

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Could Christopher O'Neill have taken the title of Duke of Halsingland and Gastrikland without taking the title of Prince Christopher of Sweden?