Titles of the Swedish RF and Changes 2019

[Bamboleio]

Tricky question(or maybe not)

This thought has suddenly crossed my mind,when I found the thread dedicated to the future baby of Prince Carl Philip&Princess Sofia of Sweden- what would happen,when SRF runs out of duchies?I mean the situation in which the family is extended to such degree,that there is simply no vacant duchy for another new family member?

 

[Mbruno]

This thought has suddenly crossed my mind,when I found the thread dedicated to the future baby of Prince Carl Philip&Princess Sofia of Sweden- what would happen,when SRF runs out of duchies?I mean the situation in which the family is extended to such degree,that there is simply no vacant duchy for another new family member?

A legitimate concern indeed. It never happened in the past for three main reasons:

1. Women were not in the line of succession and could not be duchesses in their own right nor could they transmit their pincely title to their children.
2. Several male princes were excluded from the line of succession for marrying commoners and lost their titles and membership of the Royal House. Their respective descendants didn't have any royal titles either.
3. Some royal princes didn't survive until adult age or didn't have any issue of their own.

The combined effect of (1)-(3) was to limit the growth in the number of princes of Sweden and royal dukes, thus keeping the number of persons who were members of the Royal House more or less stable. Since 1980, however, equal primogeniture and the removal of the equal marriage requirememt have raised the concern that the number of princes/princesses of Sweden and royal dukes/duchesses will eventually grow exponentially over the generations unless, for example, descendants of the collateral lines of the family start marrying without asking for the government's consent, in which case they and their future children would be excluded from the Royal House.


Personally, what I expect though is that, at the some point in the future, the titles of prince of Sweden and duke will eventually be limited, either by law or by practice, only to children and grandchildren of the King, or children and grandchildren of the Crown Prince, as it was done recently in Belgium.

 

[Countessmeout]

There is little chance. Mainly because unlike the UK these are for life only.

There are 25 provinces, and only 9 currently in use, ten if you include the Kings which I am not sure could be used in his life by someone else. With new baby that is 11. Even if Madeleine and Sofia have another baby, three each, that leaves twelve.

The only grandchildren whose kids will get a duchy are Estelle and Oscar. But by the time they have kids, their grandfathers will likely be freed up. That is 13 duchies. i don't see them having more than 13 kids between them.

 

[JR76]

There is little chance. Mainly because unlike the UK these are life peerages.



There are 25 provinces, and only 9 currently in use, ten if you include the Kings which I am not sure could be used in his life by someone else. With new baby that is 11. Even if Madeleine and Sofia have another baby, three each, that leaves twelve.



The only grandchildren chose kids will get a duchy are Estelle and Oscar. Bu the time they have kids, their grandfathers time will likely be freed up. That is 13 duchies. i don't see them having more than 13 kids between them.

The royal dukedoms are not peerages & has no legal status. They're more like courtesy titles and are not hereditary. Sweden has never had the system of peers as in UK, France (praire) & Spain (grandees) but instead, up until 1866, used the system of one vote per noble family in the House of knights section of the 4 tier (Peasants, Bourgeoisie, Priests, Nobility) parliament. Although some families were more prominent than others and many carried titles they were all the same in the eye of the law.

 

[Josefine]

TRH The Duchess and Duke of Västergötland (Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Daniel)
HRH The Duchess of Östergötland (Princess Estelle)
HRH the Duke of Skåne (prince Oscar)
HRH The Duke and Duchess of Värmland (Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia)
HRH The Duke of Södermanland (Prince Alexander)
HRH The Duke of X (Prince X)
HRH The Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland (Princess Madeleine)
HRH The Duchess of Gotland (Princess Leonore)
HRH the Duke of Ångermanland (prince Nicolas)

And next year an other child for Madeleine and Chris

 

[xenobia]

The available duchies - if I remember this correctly - would be:

Lappland, Norrbotten, Västerbotten, Medelpad, Västmanland, Närke, Dalsland, Dalarna, Bohuslän, Halland, Småland, Öland and Blekinge. Uppland is, as explained earlier in this thread, in some way still in use since the widow of prince Sigvard, duke of Uppland, is still alive. So I don't think the king will consider Uppland.

I think it would be perfect to make this child duke of Dalarna, his mothers home duchy.

 

[Stefan]

The available duchies - if I remember this correctly - would be:

Lappland, Norrbotten, Västerbotten, Medelpad, Västmanland, Närke, Dalsland, Dalarna, Bohuslän, Halland, Småland, Öland and Blekinge. Uppland is, as explained earlier in this thread, in some way still in use since the widow of prince Sigvard, duke of Uppland, is still alive. So I don't think the king will consider Uppland.

I think it would be perfect to make this child duke of Dalarna, his mothers home duchy.

But when Estelle was born Princess Kristine Bernadotte, the widow of Prince Carl was still alive. And Prince Carl had been Duke of Östergötland. I think it would be nice to use a Duchy which had either never had a Duke or one which had not been used since a long time

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Indeed very interesting. In my opinion could we ad some dukedoms to the list that are not available:
- Jämtland (King Carl XVI Gustaf is was awarded this dukedom on this birth, but are not using it since he became King. In fact he is still Duke of Jämtland, even if I think some would disagree.)
[...]

Yes, King Carl XVI Gustaf maintains his dukedom of Jämtland, even though there were previous kings of Sweden who saw their dukedoms as merged with the crown.

HM King Carl XVI Gustaf - Sveriges Kungahus

 

[Josefine]

So the king can be added to the list as duke of Jämtland but not Silvia

 

[LadyFinn]

But when Estelle was born Princess Kristine Bernadotte, the widow of Prince Carl was still alive. And Prince Carl had been Duke of Östergötland. I think it would be nice to use a Duchy which had either never had a Duke or one which had not been used since a long time

But the Swedish royal family was never very close to Princess Kristine. Countess Marianne attends all the family events and is very close to the royal family. Countess Marianne has during the years worked a lot with matters which mean a lot to the royal family, among them dyslexia. She is the Honorary Chairman of The Swedish Dyslexia Foundation and The Swedish Dyslexia Association. Carl Philip is the patron of Sigvard & Marianne Bernadotte Research Foundation for Children's Eye Care and Marianne & Sigvard Bernadotte Arts Fund.

 

[Countessmeout]

I don't think Upland will be used. But not because any perceived belief that Kristine was not as close as Mariane. Kristine was close to both the norweigan and Swedish families, though closer to Norway.

The difference is their husband. Carl never, as far as I am aware, contested the loss of his title. Sigvard on the other hand fought for the return of his title and place in the family for years. The effects of such we have seen including not wearing his former tiara in Sweden. I see them waiting time, even if Mariane passes, before reusing the title. Plenty of other titles free.

Considering Sofia and her family, Dalarna would seem a good choice.

 

[Josefine]

HM The King (Duke of Jämtland)
TRH The Duchess and Duke of Västergötland (Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Daniel)
HRH The Duchess of Östergötland (Princess Estelle)
HRH the Duke of Skåne (prince Oscar)
HRH The Duke and Duchess of Värmland (Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia)
HRH The Duke of Södermanland (Prince Alexander)
HRH The Duke of Dalarna (Prince Gabriel)
HRH The Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland (Princess Madeleine)
HRH The Duchess of Gotland (Princess Leonore)
HRH the Duke of Ångermanland (prince Nicolas)

And next year an other child for Madeleine and Chris

 

[xenobia]

We're running out of duchies soon, if they continue to have children...

 

[Mbruno]

We're running out of duchies soon, if they continue to have children...

The problem is actually the next generation, i.e. if all of King Carl Gustaf's great-grandchildren also became princes or princesses with a duchy. I imagine they have to limit the awarding of the title at some point, but it remains to be seen how it will be done.

On a separate question, how is Dalarna prinounced in Swedish ?

 

[xenobia]

My guess is that the next generation of children won't have titles, except for Estelle and perhaps Oscars future children. The king/queen can't hand out other titles (count/countess and similar styles), so that means prince/princess or nothing.

I'm not good at writing phonetics, but I think that Dalarna is pronounced quite similar in swedish and english. I don't know if this link works outside of Sweden, but if it does, you can hear the king announce the duchy of Dalarna around 30 sec into the clip.
Prinsen ska heta: Gabriel Carl Walther - Nyheter (Ekot) | Sveriges Radio

 

[Mbruno]

My guess is that the next generation of children won't have titles, except for Estelle and perhaps Oscars future children. The king/queen can't hand out other titles (count/countess and similar styles), so that means prince/princess or nothing.

I'm not good at writing phonetics, but I think that Dalarna is pronounced quite similar in swedish and english. I don't know if this link works outside of Sweden, but if it does, you can hear the king announce the duchy of Dalarna around 30 sec into the clip.
Prinsen ska heta: Gabriel Carl Walther - Nyheter (Ekot) | Sveriges Radio

Thanks. If I heard it correctly, the 'r' is mute, which is how it would be in British English I guess, but not in American English. The first 'a' in 'Da' sounds like the 'o' in 'boy', is that right ?

 

[JR76]

Thanks. If I heard it correctly, the 'r' is mute, which is how it would be in British English I guess, but not in American English. The first 'a' in 'Da' sounds like the 'o' in 'boy', is that right ?

In my south Swedish accent its pronounced something like D-a(a like in are)-l-a(like last -a in Gaga)-rrn-a (last -a in again).

 

[Countessmeout]

We're running out of duchies soon, if they continue to have children...

Not likely. There are 25 provinces and only 11 in use, 12 when Madeleine gives birth. Even if Cp and Madeleine have another each, would leave 11 free. twelve when the king passes. Plenty left for kids of Estelle and Oscar.

 

[An Ard Ri]

There's a relevant thread in the British Forum : Questions about British Styles and Titles where all non Swedish related posts will be thus moved and lets keep this thread on topic


http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/questions-about-british-styles-and-titles-258.html

 

[Josefine]

HM The King (Duke of Jämtland)
TRH The Duchess and Duke of Västergötland (Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Daniel)
HRH The Duchess of Östergötland (Princess Estelle)
HRH the Duke of Skåne (prince Oscar)
HRH The Duke and Duchess of Värmland (Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia)
HRH The Duke of Södermanland (Prince Alexander)
HRH The Duke of Dalarna (Prince Gabriel)
HRH The Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland (Princess Madeleine)
HRH The Duchess of Gotland (Princess Leonore)
HRH the Duke of Ångermanland (Prince Nicolas)
HRH The Duchess of Blekinge (Princess Adrienne)

 

[Mbruno]

HM The King (Duke of Jämtland)
TRH The Duchess and Duke of Västergötland (Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Daniel)
HRH The Duchess of Östergötland (Princess Estelle)
HRH the Duke of Skåne (prince Oscar)
HRH The Duke and Duchess of Värmland (Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia)
HRH The Duke of Södermanland (Prince Alexander)
HRH The Duke of Dalarna (Prince Gabriel)
HRH The Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland (Princess Madeleine)
HRH The Duchess of Gotland (Princess Leonore)
HRH the Duke of Ångermanland (Prince Nicolas)
HRH The Duchess of Blekinge (Princess Adrienne)

I am having fun learning how to pronounce those Swedish names ! I guess I have figured out the vowel system now, but the different pronunciations of the letter 'g' still confuse me. Also, I find it very hard to know which syllable is stressed in Swedish words.

 

[Biri]

Just for curiosity: Which of Swedish provinces do not currently have a Duke?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Just for curiosity: Which of Swedish provinces do not currently have a Duke?

Bohuslän, Dalsland, Halland, Härjedalen, Lappland, Medelpad, Norrbotten, Närke, Småland, Uppland, Västerbotten, Västmanland, and Öland.

The only grandchildren whose kids will get a duchy are Estelle and Oscar.

It may be, but the court hasn't issued any statements regarding the titles of Carl Philip and Madeleine's grandchildren.

What are princess astrid's children's titles
HI&RH or HRH?

Astrid of Belgium's children are titled HRH.
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

 

[Mbruno]

I apologize if that sounds like a dumb question, but how does one say "you" (or equivalent) in Swedish when addressing a Swedish royal ?



On a related, but different question, how would one say "you" to Mr Christopher O'Neill ?


Thank you for your reply.

 

[Kingen]

I apologize if that sounds like a dumb question, but how does one say "you" (or equivalent) in Swedish when addressing a Swedish royal ?



On a related, but different question, how would one say "you" to Mr Christopher O'Neill ?


Thank you for your reply.

Not a stupid questions at all, actually there are many options to choose from in how the Swedish royal is adressed.

Many would just say "du" (you) and few would say "Ni" (You), the use of "Ni" in Swedish was almost removed in the 1960's.

Another option, which many would do, is to address the royal with their title, "Kungen" (the King), "Drottningen"(the Queen) etc. It sounds a bit complicated, but it avoids the royals to be addressed "du". For example:

"Skulle Kungen kunna berätta om x?" Could the King tell us about x?
"Vad anser Kronprinsessan om x?" What does the Crown Princess think about x?

I think many Swedes would address Christopher O'Neill with "du", in line with his decision to decline a title.

 

[Mbruno]

Not a stupid questions at all, actually there are many options to choose from in how the Swedish royal is adressed.

Many would just say "du" (you) and few would say "Ni" (You), the use of "Ni" in Swedish was almost removed in the 1960's.

Another option, which many would do, is to address the royal with their title, "Kungen" (the King), "Drottningen"(the Queen) etc. It sounds a bit complicated, but it avoids the royals to be addressed "du". For example:

"Skulle Kungen kunna berätta om x?" Could the King tell us about x?
"Vad anser Kronprinsessan om x?" What does the Crown Princess think about x?

I think many Swedes would address Christopher O'Neill with "du", in line with his decision to decline a title.

Thank you very much, Kingen. Your reply was very helpful.


I have just one more question: when the indirect third-person form of address is used (e.g. "the King"), are third-person possessive pronouns used too ? I mean, would you say


Would the King like his cup of coffee now ?


or


Would the King like your cup of coffee now ?





Thanks again.




EDIT: If "the King" were replaced with "Your Majesty", would that change the possessive pronoun too ?

 

[Somebody]

Not being a speaker of Swedish I cannot answer the question with certainty but we did and sometimes still do something similar in our family when addressing our (much older) uncles and aunts. The formal 'u' seems to distant and the informal 'jij' not respectful enough, so the sentence (translated) 'Would aunt X like a/her cup of coffee?' (I'd try to avoid the possessive but if needed it would be her) would come completely natural to me (while my husband still isn't used to it - he would use the formal you instead).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

It's said in the official interview that Chris will not apply for the swedish citizenship. So he will stay british/amarican. And if I remember right titles are not possible / won't be recognized officially in any way in the american everyday life. So is it even possible to give him an official title / male version of Madeleines title (the title of a completely different country) if he doesn't want to change his citizenship?

When reading Tom Clancys Patriot games were Jack is offered a knighthood for saving the Prince of Wales the question came up if he could accept that and still be US citizen. Why do I bring this up? Well, IF Madeleine and Chris get married, can Chris be Duke of Gavleborg without give up his citizenship?

Article 1, Section 9 of the US Constitution states: "No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State." So Chris, not being a public official, can legally hold the title of Duke. He probably wouldn't be addressed as such in the United States though. I think it's more a question if he can be a member of the Swedish Royal Family and hold dual citizenship

Wouldn't Chris have to relinquish his U.S. citizenship to take a title? I know the American actress Jamie Lee Curtis' husband, Christopher Guest, is a British baron so she is a baroness by marriage but not in her own right. I know that the U.S. Constitution prevents members of the government from accepting titles, but I don't know what the law is regarding regular citizens.

In the British royal family, the Duchess of Sussex, who has remained an American, was legally recognized as Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Sussex on her son's official birth registry and is addressed as Duchess of Sussex even in the United States. That seems to definitively answer these questions.

 

[Kataryn]

Astrid of Belgium's children are titled HRH.
Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Let's say that the HRH titles are official Royal titles and that the king of Belgium uses them here, as reported by the Moniteur Belge. But out of courtesy the HI&RH-titles are used as well, so the children of an archduke of Austria should have them as well. Times have changed a lot and thus Amedeo and his siblings hold Belgian Royal titles and styles, but the historic titles and styles should be remembered as well, IMHO. (If you use those at all!)

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Let's say that the HRH titles are official Royal titles and that the king of Belgium uses them here, as reported by the Moniteur Belge. But out of courtesy the HI&RH-titles are used as well, so the children of an archduke of Austria should have them as well. Times have changed a lot and thus Amedeo and his siblings hold Belgian Royal titles and styles, but the historic titles and styles should be remembered as well, IMHO. (If you use those at all!)

(Edited, as I believe I misinterpreted your post at first reading.)

I have never found a case of the king or any of the family using HI&RH after being granted the title of Prince or Princess of Belgium, but they do use Archduke or Archduchess of Austria-Este as a subsidiary title and Princess Anna Astrid, who is only a Princess and not a Princess of Belgium, uses the HI&RH. (The 2015 decree limited the HRH to Princes and Princesses of Belgium.)

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...elgian-royal-family-38975-15.html#post2117594