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  #61  
Old 03-26-2017, 10:10 AM
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Tricky question(or maybe not)

This thought has suddenly crossed my mind,when I found the thread dedicated to the future baby of Prince Carl Philip&Princess Sofia of Sweden- what would happen,when SRF runs out of duchies?I mean the situation in which the family is extended to such degree,that there is simply no vacant duchy for another new family member?
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  #62  
Old 03-26-2017, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bamboleio View Post
This thought has suddenly crossed my mind,when I found the thread dedicated to the future baby of Prince Carl Philip&Princess Sofia of Sweden- what would happen,when SRF runs out of duchies?I mean the situation in which the family is extended to such degree,that there is simply no vacant duchy for another new family member?
A legitimate concern indeed. It never happened in the past for three main reasons:

  1. Women were not in the line of succession and could not be duchesses in their own right nor could they transmit their pincely title to their children.
  2. Several male princes were excluded from the line of succession for marrying commoners and lost their titles and membership of the Royal House. Their respective descendants didn't have any royal titles either.
  3. Some royal princes didn't survive until adult age or didn't have any issue of their own.
The combined effect of (1)-(3) was to limit the growth in the number of princes of Sweden and royal dukes, thus keeping the number of persons who were members of the Royal House more or less stable. Since 1980, however, equal primogeniture and the removal of the equal marriage requirememt have raised the concern that the number of princes/princesses of Sweden and royal dukes/duchesses will eventually grow exponentially over the generations unless, for example, descendants of the collateral lines of the family start marrying without asking for the government's consent, in which case they and their future children would be excluded from the Royal House.


Personally, what I expect though is that, at the some point in the future, the titles of prince of Sweden and duke will eventually be limited, either by law or by practice, only to children and grandchildren of the King, or children and grandchildren of the Crown Prince, as it was done recently in Belgium.
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  #63  
Old 03-26-2017, 12:34 PM
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There is little chance. Mainly because unlike the UK these are for life only.

There are 25 provinces, and only 9 currently in use, ten if you include the Kings which I am not sure could be used in his life by someone else. With new baby that is 11. Even if Madeleine and Sofia have another baby, three each, that leaves twelve.

The only grandchildren whose kids will get a duchy are Estelle and Oscar. But by the time they have kids, their grandfathers will likely be freed up. That is 13 duchies. i don't see them having more than 13 kids between them.
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  #64  
Old 03-26-2017, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
There is little chance. Mainly because unlike the UK these are life peerages.



There are 25 provinces, and only 9 currently in use, ten if you include the Kings which I am not sure could be used in his life by someone else. With new baby that is 11. Even if Madeleine and Sofia have another baby, three each, that leaves twelve.



The only grandchildren chose kids will get a duchy are Estelle and Oscar. Bu the time they have kids, their grandfathers time will likely be freed up. That is 13 duchies. i don't see them having more than 13 kids between them.


The royal dukedoms are not peerages & has no legal status. They're more like courtesy titles and are not hereditary. Sweden has never had the system of peers as in UK, France (praire) & Spain (grandees) but instead, up until 1866, used the system of one vote per noble family in the House of knights section of the 4 tier (Peasants, Bourgeoisie, Priests, Nobility) parliament. Although some families were more prominent than others and many carried titles they were all the same in the eye of the law.
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  #65  
Old 09-01-2017, 04:15 AM
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TRH The Duchess and Duke of Västergötland (Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Daniel)
HRH The Duchess of Östergötland (Princess Estelle)
HRH the Duke of Skåne (prince Oscar)
HRH The Duke and Duchess of Värmland (Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia)
HRH The Duke of Södermanland (Prince Alexander)
HRH The Duke of X (Prince X)
HRH The Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland (Princess Madeleine)
HRH The Duchess of Gotland (Princess Leonore)
HRH the Duke of Ångermanland (prince Nicolas)

And next year an other child for Madeleine and Chris
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  #66  
Old 09-01-2017, 06:36 AM
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The available duchies - if I remember this correctly - would be:

Lappland, Norrbotten, Västerbotten, Medelpad, Västmanland, Närke, Dalsland, Dalarna, Bohuslän, Halland, Småland, Öland and Blekinge. Uppland is, as explained earlier in this thread, in some way still in use since the widow of prince Sigvard, duke of Uppland, is still alive. So I don't think the king will consider Uppland.

I think it would be perfect to make this child duke of Dalarna, his mothers home duchy.
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  #67  
Old 09-01-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
The available duchies - if I remember this correctly - would be:

Lappland, Norrbotten, Västerbotten, Medelpad, Västmanland, Närke, Dalsland, Dalarna, Bohuslän, Halland, Småland, Öland and Blekinge. Uppland is, as explained earlier in this thread, in some way still in use since the widow of prince Sigvard, duke of Uppland, is still alive. So I don't think the king will consider Uppland.

I think it would be perfect to make this child duke of Dalarna, his mothers home duchy.
But when Estelle was born Princess Kristine Bernadotte, the widow of Prince Carl was still alive. And Prince Carl had been Duke of Östergötland. I think it would be nice to use a Duchy which had either never had a Duke or one which had not been used since a long time
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  #68  
Old 09-01-2017, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kingen View Post
Indeed very interesting. In my opinion could we ad some dukedoms to the list that are not available:
- Jämtland (King Carl XVI Gustaf is was awarded this dukedom on this birth, but are not using it since he became King. In fact he is still Duke of Jämtland, even if I think some would disagree.)
[...]
Yes, King Carl XVI Gustaf maintains his dukedom of Jämtland, even though there were previous kings of Sweden who saw their dukedoms as merged with the crown.

HM King Carl XVI Gustaf - Sveriges Kungahus
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  #69  
Old 09-01-2017, 10:39 AM
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So the king can be added to the list as duke of Jämtland but not Silvia
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  #70  
Old 09-01-2017, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But when Estelle was born Princess Kristine Bernadotte, the widow of Prince Carl was still alive. And Prince Carl had been Duke of Östergötland. I think it would be nice to use a Duchy which had either never had a Duke or one which had not been used since a long time
But the Swedish royal family was never very close to Princess Kristine. Countess Marianne attends all the family events and is very close to the royal family. Countess Marianne has during the years worked a lot with matters which mean a lot to the royal family, among them dyslexia. She is the Honorary Chairman of The Swedish Dyslexia Foundation and The Swedish Dyslexia Association. Carl Philip is the patron of Sigvard & Marianne Bernadotte Research Foundation for Children's Eye Care and Marianne & Sigvard Bernadotte Arts Fund.
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  #71  
Old 09-01-2017, 02:15 PM
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I don't think Upland will be used. But not because any perceived belief that Kristine was not as close as Mariane. Kristine was close to both the norweigan and Swedish families, though closer to Norway.

The difference is their husband. Carl never, as far as I am aware, contested the loss of his title. Sigvard on the other hand fought for the return of his title and place in the family for years. The effects of such we have seen including not wearing his former tiara in Sweden. I see them waiting time, even if Mariane passes, before reusing the title. Plenty of other titles free.

Considering Sofia and her family, Dalarna would seem a good choice.
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  #72  
Old 09-04-2017, 06:37 AM
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HM The King (Duke of Jämtland)
TRH The Duchess and Duke of Västergötland (Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Daniel)
HRH The Duchess of Östergötland (Princess Estelle)
HRH the Duke of Skåne (prince Oscar)
HRH The Duke and Duchess of Värmland (Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia)
HRH The Duke of Södermanland (Prince Alexander)
HRH The Duke of Dalarna (Prince Gabriel)
HRH The Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland (Princess Madeleine)
HRH The Duchess of Gotland (Princess Leonore)
HRH the Duke of Ångermanland (prince Nicolas)

And next year an other child for Madeleine and Chris
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  #73  
Old 09-04-2017, 06:43 AM
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We're running out of duchies soon, if they continue to have children... :)
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  #74  
Old 09-04-2017, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
We're running out of duchies soon, if they continue to have children... :)
The problem is actually the next generation, i.e. if all of King Carl Gustaf's great-grandchildren also became princes or princesses with a duchy. I imagine they have to limit the awarding of the title at some point, but it remains to be seen how it will be done.

On a separate question, how is Dalarna prinounced in Swedish ?
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  #75  
Old 09-04-2017, 07:07 AM
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My guess is that the next generation of children won't have titles, except for Estelle and perhaps Oscars future children. The king/queen can't hand out other titles (count/countess and similar styles), so that means prince/princess or nothing.

I'm not good at writing phonetics, but I think that Dalarna is pronounced quite similar in swedish and english. I don't know if this link works outside of Sweden, but if it does, you can hear the king announce the duchy of Dalarna around 30 sec into the clip.
Prinsen ska heta: Gabriel Carl Walther - Nyheter (Ekot) | Sveriges Radio
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  #76  
Old 09-04-2017, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
My guess is that the next generation of children won't have titles, except for Estelle and perhaps Oscars future children. The king/queen can't hand out other titles (count/countess and similar styles), so that means prince/princess or nothing.

I'm not good at writing phonetics, but I think that Dalarna is pronounced quite similar in swedish and english. I don't know if this link works outside of Sweden, but if it does, you can hear the king announce the duchy of Dalarna around 30 sec into the clip.
Prinsen ska heta: Gabriel Carl Walther - Nyheter (Ekot) | Sveriges Radio
Thanks. If I heard it correctly, the 'r' is mute, which is how it would be in British English I guess, but not in American English. The first 'a' in 'Da' sounds like the 'o' in 'boy', is that right ?
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  #77  
Old 09-04-2017, 11:02 AM
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Thanks. If I heard it correctly, the 'r' is mute, which is how it would be in British English I guess, but not in American English. The first 'a' in 'Da' sounds like the 'o' in 'boy', is that right ?
In my south Swedish accent its pronounced something like D-a(a like in are)-l-a(like last -a in Gaga)-rrn-a (last -a in again).
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  #78  
Old 09-04-2017, 11:38 AM
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We're running out of duchies soon, if they continue to have children... :)
Not likely. There are 25 provinces and only 11 in use, 12 when Madeleine gives birth. Even if Cp and Madeleine have another each, would leave 11 free. twelve when the king passes. Plenty left for kids of Estelle and Oscar.
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  #79  
Old 09-04-2017, 02:54 PM
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There's a relevant thread in the British Forum : Questions about British Styles and Titles where all non Swedish related posts will be thus moved and lets keep this thread on topic


Questions about British Styles and Titles
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  #80  
Old 03-12-2018, 10:28 AM
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HM The King (Duke of Jämtland)
TRH The Duchess and Duke of Västergötland (Crown Princess Victoria and Prince Daniel)
HRH The Duchess of Östergötland (Princess Estelle)
HRH the Duke of Skåne (prince Oscar)
HRH The Duke and Duchess of Värmland (Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia)
HRH The Duke of Södermanland (Prince Alexander)
HRH The Duke of Dalarna (Prince Gabriel)
HRH The Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland (Princess Madeleine)
HRH The Duchess of Gotland (Princess Leonore)
HRH the Duke of Ångermanland (Prince Nicolas)
HRH The Duchess of Blekinge (Princess Adrienne)
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