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  #121  
Old 12-07-2007, 06:51 AM
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There is other Heir of the Berleburg House?
Of course there is as there is further family.

Let's assume the old prince stated in his will that Richard, his firstborn should be skipped and that his firstborn son should inherit. Then he put down that Nazi-condition saying that in case the firstborn son of Richard should marry the wrong women, then he should loose the inheritance.

If he stated it that way it would mean that the condition about the marriage is not valid for all potential heirs but only for the firstborn son. Or if the wording is that the condition is valid for all potential heirs, then we have to look further. Robin, Richard's brother, is married to a lady of non-noble descent. But he was married to a lady in his first marriage who came AFAIK from a Swedish noble family. Thus the son from this marriage would be heir as long as he is unmarried or married to the right kind of woman. If he marries a commoner, the next in line is to be searched who fullfills the condition.

But once an heir has married the right lady and stayed married to her till his death or did marry more than once but always to a lady fulfilling the condition or did not marry at all - this heir becomes in the moment of his death in the legal sense the owner of the fortune. So if he states in his will that the Berleburg fortune should be inherited by his legal heir, then it's without the condition of the old prince.

Okay, it's complicated. But that's inheritance laws for you.

In case the court case fails and the will is recognized as valid,
Gustav and Carina could live together, even get a son and Gustav could under current German law legitimize this child on adoption. Then this boy would be the next prince of Berleburg. As Gustav wouldn't be married till he died, he in the moment of his death would become the rightful owner of the Berleburg fortune and could leave it without conditions to his son and give some money to Carina as well. But she would always be plain Ms. Axelsson. But I guess if this is important for the Berleburg, queen Margarete or (at a later date) king Frederick would ennoble her just like they did with Alexandra.
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  #122  
Old 12-07-2007, 07:41 AM
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Thank you for the interest explication. Certenly it´s very difficul to explaint!

But I have a question, let me explaint it well...
In case the court case fails and the will is recognized as valid, Pince Gustav can to renounce to his inheritance and marri with Carina? and in that case, who would be the Heir?
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  #123  
Old 12-07-2007, 08:52 AM
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Thank you for the interest explication. Certenly it´s very difficul to explaint!

But I have a question, let me explaint it well...
In case the court case fails and the will is recognized as valid, Pince Gustav can to renounce to his inheritance and marri with Carina? and in that case, who would be the Heir?
That is an information only the Berleburgs have so far as the will was never published AFAIK. But it's surely a quite difficult document, as it involved the fact that prince Richard either renounced his rights to the legal portion part to the Berleburg fortune (Vollerbe) or was forced to do it on facing disinheritance in case he didn't do it but became only Nutzniesser (the one who profits from the estate). That had tax reasons, I'm assured and the danger of the war had to do with it as a lot of estates were broken up by inheritance taxes during WWI when the heirs died one after the other and for each death tax had to be payed. So it made sense to leave the estate as the old prince did and for the family to wait till prince Richard came of legal age in order to have the old prince declared dead (he was missing in action in WWII).

It's only now that the question of marriage for Gustav arises and as long as we have no idea how the will is actually worded, we can't say who will be the heir after Gustav. Maybe Richard himself. Maybe Robin or even Robin's son.
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  #124  
Old 12-07-2007, 10:50 AM
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the insights on things i could never have a clue about are one of the things i cherish about this board. thanks so much jo of palatine, it's great to have explained part of what this mess is all about. (thanks especially since you don't have the will to read or interpret)

so to my understanding gustav and carina can have children and as long as they are not married? (their child? or adopted child? (no girls?) or SON can be heir in the will AFTER gustav dies. but if they marry it goes to the man/or son that married a noble, which would be richards first wife (gosh my head is spinning) ie: robin.
basically gustavs birthright for a piece of paper to appease a racist will from the last century (don't get me started about no girls allowed rule)

i like carina she seems a lovely woman and i certainly don't think any less of the fact they aren't married. I'm thrilled she seems loved and accepted by the family and it's clear they consider her part of the DRF which imo means more than any legal document (great idea the queen giving her a title, for those pesky seating charts). btw if the queen gave carina a title, would that make her noble and allow a marriage? looks like a loophole to me

court cases are long, expensive and always ugly, if lawyers haven't figured out a loophole, let it go- don't get married, be happy, have a wonderful life - i'm a hopeless romantic and nothing kills romance like getting married. imo they'll make beautiful babies and there can never be too many cute babies to awwww over.
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  #125  
Old 12-07-2007, 11:07 AM
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btw if the queen gave carina a title, would that make her noble and allow a marriage? looks like a loophole to me
Yes, Carina could convert to protestantism (if she isn't already one) and be ennobled by the queen but that wouldn't make her into an Aryan, as she has Mexican (latino?) blood. That's the reasonn why I think the whole stipulation is rascistic, contra bonos mores and thus illegal. But then again, it depends on the actual wording.
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  #126  
Old 12-07-2007, 11:31 AM
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DISGUSTING- so if gustav had fallen in love with princess christina of spain they couldn't have married ie: latin blood. i mean thats just stupid when you think of all the dynastic marriages between the french, spanish, english, german, italian, greek etc royal houses over the centuries can you even find a "pure aryan" if you wanted too. lawyers love this kind of thing, the billing hours for research alone is probably millions. thanks again for your insight:)
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  #127  
Old 12-07-2007, 11:38 AM
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Cool

what the hell is "pure aryan" anyway? it is disgusting that now in the 21st century wills like that could be upheld.
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  #128  
Old 12-07-2007, 12:22 PM
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it's also disgusting that two world wars didn't settle the issue once and for all. dna aside all blood looks, clots and bleeds the same, .
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  #129  
Old 12-07-2007, 02:27 PM
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it is disgusting that now in the 21st century wills like that could be upheld.
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it's also disgusting that two world wars didn't settle the issue once and for all. dna aside all blood looks, clots and bleeds the same, .

"Disgusting" as it may be in this day and age, one must remember the time, place, context, and situation of when this Will was first assembled.
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  #130  
Old 12-07-2007, 04:17 PM
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Since the discussion became so serious, here is something that might lighten the mood. I tried to find Carina's books on amazon. I found just one, for reading level ages 4-8, called Nigel, about a dragon (obviously called Nigel) who lives in London's Hyde Park. It's only $4.25 for members who want to buy it for the kids. It has two impressive reviews.

If Gustav and Carina lose all the Berleburg goodies in consequence of their marriage, I think they would be most welcome to make a home here in Carina's native California. I would not complain. Yes, it would be sad, but there are many great things in life besides titles and heirlooms. No one needs to have a castle to enjoy life. I don't have a castle (unless you count the "Chewster castle" of my imagination) and enjoy my life everyday.
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  #131  
Old 12-07-2007, 04:23 PM
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DISGUSTING- so if gustav had fallen in love with princess christina of spain they couldn't have married ie: latin blood. i mean thats just stupid when you think of all the dynastic marriages between the french, spanish, english, german, italian, greek etc royal houses over the centuries can you even find a "pure aryan" if you wanted too. lawyers love this kind of thing, the billing hours for research alone is probably millions. thanks again for your insight:)
Well, the thing about THAT is that even Infanta Cristina isn't completely Spanish. Queen Sofia is part Greek, part German, but realistically, she is pretty much all German through her ancestry. Even her Greek, Russian and Danish ancestors were ultimately not at all Danish, Greek or Russian, but from German families. As for Juan Carlos, he is more Spanish, but he has Italian and German and British (once again though, through Queen Ena, the Battenbergs and Princess Beatrice were still German) heritage. So Cristina, even though she is a Spanish princess could possibly still be in the running
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  #132  
Old 12-07-2007, 11:48 PM
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How is this for a solution?

Couldn't Gustav and Carina marry in the United States, yet not marry in Germany? Then, Gustav would still be "unmarried" as far as Germany is concerned, but married in the U.S.?

Does this makes sense?
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  #133  
Old 12-08-2007, 02:16 AM
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Well, yes, they could do that........... but why? Why marry at all? If they are able to live like a married couple anyway, live together, and his family treats her as they would treat his wife, having her at special events, etc. then what is the reason to alter the situation? They have what they need, to be together and accepted by their families and friends........
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  #134  
Old 12-08-2007, 12:37 PM
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Well, Georg Friedrich and Gustav are in a similar situation: Gustav because of his grandfather´s will and Georg will get in big trouble with his uncles if he doesn´t marry a noble woman......
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  #135  
Old 12-08-2007, 01:44 PM
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How is this for a solution?

Couldn't Gustav and Carina marry in the United States, yet not marry in Germany? Then, Gustav would still be "unmarried" as far as Germany is concerned, but married in the U.S.?

Does this makes sense?
US-marriages are acknowledged in Germany.
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  #136  
Old 12-08-2007, 02:19 PM
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I feel so bad for these poor princes. Back when these monarchies were still around, I could see why it mattered, but in this day and age, it's a shame that they cannot marry their loves because of old family law.
Well, they can marry non-royal women of course, but they will lose some properties and their place as head of a house.
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  #137  
Old 12-08-2007, 02:32 PM
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It's not that they cannot get married. They can. He would lose his home, his money, his heritage etc. His children, if they have any, would not get anything either. That is a huge compromise. They may live together, but under the eyes of the law, they are not a legitimate man and wife. Any children would not be legitimate. Gustav would put his children out of their heritage and in a similar situation like he is now.
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  #138  
Old 12-08-2007, 02:56 PM
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Well, they can marry non-royal women of course, but they will lose some properties and their place as head of a house.
I feel so awful for these princes. While their relatives in the reigning royal houses can feel free to marry commoners without having to give up their rights, they ironically can't. You would think it would be the OTHER way around!

IMO, I feel if you love someone enough, having the money and property and social standing wouldn't be important. Call me a a hopeless romantic but I certainly wouldn't put my life on hold to fight over a will that denies me the right to marry my true love. To heck with it I say!
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  #139  
Old 12-08-2007, 04:45 PM
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It's not that they cannot get married. They can. He would lose his home, his money, his heritage etc. His children, if they have any, would not get anything either. That is a huge compromise. They may live together, but under the eyes of the law, they are not a legitimate man and wife. Any children would not be legitimate. Gustav would put his children out of their heritage and in a similar situation like he is now.
Please let me stae again that Gustav in today's Germany can acknowledge any child he has fathered and give this child the heritage any child born to a marriage has as well. That is not a problem any more.
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  #140  
Old 12-08-2007, 04:53 PM
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Well, whatever they do........ shoot, Carina is simply gorgeous. Breathtakingly beautiful, and so exotic. I wonder if she ever pinches herself to remind herself it's not a fantastic dream, being in love with this cool prince and living in a castle and being practically best friends with the coolest Crown Prince couple on the planet......
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