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  #101  
Old 11-23-2007, 09:23 PM
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Are you sure it is Prince Robin who is agreeing with his fathers will? He didn´t comply with it either, as he married a woman who wasn´t a noble twice and in the latter case she was a catholic too.
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  #102  
Old 11-24-2007, 12:35 AM
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How long would it take for this to be resolved? Surely, in this day and age, the will could be reversed! I hope everything works out for Gustav.
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  #103  
Old 11-24-2007, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Are you sure it is Prince Robin who is agreeing with his fathers will? He didn´t comply with it either, as he married a woman who wasn´t a noble twice and in the latter case she was a catholic too.
I read that it was on two other boards, I do not know for a fact since nothing pertaining to the court case is published.

I thought that Prince Robin's first wife, Birgitta af Klercker, came from a Swedish Baronial family. Are the af Klerckers not noble? I know each country is different as to who is a noble or aristocrat.

Please correct me if I am incorrect. I welcome it!

Thanks
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  #104  
Old 11-24-2007, 06:48 PM
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Thanks for explaining michelle, so if Prince Robin is the one who wants to stick to the will of his father I suspect he has an alterior motive and hopes that his own son would get the whole lot (though I wonder if he will, he is married to a lady who is catholic and AFAIK not noble)? Aren´t all the Berleburg properties now on the name of Gustav, and not of Richard, so technically that would mean that Benedikte and Richard would have to move out of Castle Berleburg? ..... I gather the family isn´t too keen on holding family reunions these days .
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  #105  
Old 11-24-2007, 07:30 PM
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That's funny!

Actually, Schloss Berleburg was where Princess Vanessa zu Sayn Wittgenstein Berleburg had her reception and her wedding was held at the local church. I thought that was very nice.

I also read from those same sites, that if Gustav loses his inheritance, it will be Vanessa and Lily's father who would inherit Schloss Berleburg.

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  #106  
Old 11-24-2007, 07:50 PM
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I am not sure if Prince Otto-Ludwig (Lilly´s father) will be the one who inherits these things, there is a more senior branch but they changed their name to ´Sayn-Witgenstein-Hohenstein´ as Prince Christian-Heinrich of SWB was adopted by the last Fuerst of the SWH branch. I suppose that by the adoption Prince CH was removed from the ´line of succession´ of the SWB branch? In that case it would be Lilly´s father indeed who would inherit all. I am not sure if his eldest son could succeed him, as he married a von Winterstein, untitled nobility. But he has a second son who is unmarried and if all fails...the SWB family isn´t short of Princes, their number can compete with the ones from Liechtenstein . Note that the tax over such a transfer would be enormous and the family would probably have to auction off a lot of historical pieces to finance it all.

Anyway, let´s hope that the German court will decide that the rascist will of the late Prince Gustav is cancelled. I wonder what the exact outcome of the courtcase of the Hohenzollern brothers against their nephew Prince Georg-Friedrich was? The will of the late Prince Louis Ferdinand was basically discriminatory too, as he disinherited his elder sons who married commoners. I am not able to recall the outcome of the courtcase though.

On another note, did the late Princess Madelaine ever speak about her husbands will and her grandsons position? It would be interesting to see what she thought about it all.
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  #107  
Old 12-02-2007, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by michelleq View Post
That's funny!

Actually, Schloss Berleburg was where Princess Vanessa zu Sayn Wittgenstein Berleburg had her reception and her wedding was held at the local church. I thought that was very nice.

I also read from those same sites, that if Gustav loses his inheritance, it will be Vanessa and Lily's father who would inherit Schloss Berleburg.



Speaking of Vanessa, Gustav and Carina attended her wedding which took place on September 9, 2007. Click here, here, and here to view images of the lovely couple.

Billed Bladet ran an article about the couple, and when asked about his own marriage plans Gustav replied "... it will happen one day."
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  #108  
Old 12-02-2007, 04:59 PM
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In the latest edition of Billed Bladet, there is a interview and cover photo (supplement) with the headline, First interview with Prince Gustav's girlfriend: Carina new woman at the palace.

The article reports that Carina, who is having difficulty learning German unlike French and Spanish which she is able to speak, is happy living in Berleburg. With the blessing of Princess Benedikte and Gustav, Carina has begun her own, unofficial, patronage (as I call it), by handing out awards to kids who write the best stories in town. Which makes sense because she is known for her children's book series, Nigel.

Carina says that she reads to the local children which gave her the idea for the Nigel Prize. She is also contributing to the restoration of Berleburg castle, a task which she thoroughly enjoys. For the last two summers, Carina has been a regular at Graasten castle. She notes that she loves Denmark and that the royal family have welcomed her with open arms. During the latest hunt at Fredensborg, it was reported that Gustav and Carina stayed with Frederik and Mary and the kids at Chancellery House.

One more close-up shots of Carina and Mary at the royal hunt at Fredensborg. Apparenty, the two went shopping (in Mary's red Saab) either before or after this photo was taken.
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  #109  
Old 12-05-2007, 10:30 AM
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I ask myself slowly how long this Carina-has-to-wait-until-we-have-a-solution-for-the-will-problems will go on.
I wouldn´t feel well by knowing that my boyfriend might let me go if he doesn´t inherit the money just because I´m not noble.
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  #110  
Old 12-05-2007, 08:15 PM
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It is my belief that Carina and Gustav will remain life long partner's if the Will, once the final verdict is in, is not in his favor.

One can see that they sincerely love each other. Princess Benedikte and Prince Richard along with the DRF have welcomed her into the family.

Despite the uphill battle Gustav is currently facing I do believe that no matter what happens she will still be there. One does not need a ring or piece of paper to confirm their love for each other; Gustav could remain with Carina for the rest of his life. The only major difference is that she will not be titled Princess... and is it really all that important in the end? I believe it isn't. Love is more important than the title of HH Princess Carina of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg.
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  #111  
Old 12-06-2007, 05:19 AM
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I ask myself slowly how long this Carina-has-to-wait-until-we-have-a-solution-for-the-will-problems will go on.
I wouldn´t feel well by knowing that my boyfriend might let me go if he doesn´t inherit the money just because I´m not noble.
Tha's why I cannot understand!! Why can't he just left this will thing behind and love Carina and marry her? If he really loves he should do that
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  #112  
Old 12-06-2007, 06:07 AM
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It sounds nice - if he loves her he'll just marry her and so on. But I don't think any of us knows all the implications of that will. Gustav may be prepared to dispense with his own inheritance but he may feel that he would then make a decision that would strongly affect others than just himself.

Moreover, there is not necessarily more love involved in a relationship just because people get a piece of paper that confirms it. Gustav and Carina are clearly considered de facto married by all his family and hers probably as well.

And perhaps it is Carina who does not want to force Gustav to go against the will.
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  #113  
Old 12-06-2007, 08:09 AM
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I wonder what the exact outcome of the courtcase of the Hohenzollern brothers against their nephew Prince Georg-Friedrich was? The will of the late Prince Louis Ferdinand was basically discriminatory too, as he disinherited his elder sons who married commoners. I am not able to recall the outcome of the courtcase though.
My understanding is that the German Court upheld two principles in both the Hohenzollern and Leiningen cases:

1. The division and disposition of property in a will must be in accordance with German law;
2. The internal or "House Rules" of a family are private family business. As the 'Headship of a House' and who can succeed to that position have no bearing in law, the Courts cannot determine such matters.
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  #114  
Old 12-06-2007, 10:38 AM
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My understanding is that the German Court upheld two principles in both the Hohenzollern and Leiningen cases:

1. The division and disposition of property in a will must be in accordance with German law;
2. The internal or "House Rules" of a family are private family business. As the 'Headship of a House' and who can succeed to that position have no bearing in law, the Courts cannot determine such matters.
No, these were not the points that lead to the decision in both cases to upheld the will.

German law states that whoever is the owner of something may dispose of it in the way he/she wants. He may put conditions on inheritance or dispossess relatives for whatever reasons.

But: relatives like children (according to newer legislation there is no difference anymore between illegitimate and legitimate) or a wife have according to German law a right to their "Pflichtteil" -"Duty share/legal portion".which is half of what they have a legal right to. That only covers half of your possession, you can will the other half to whoever you want.
Plus you and your heirs can agree on a contract which includes conditions.

It's a bit more difficult when it comes to the choice of bride/groom for children.
Any testator may say that because his son/daughter married a jew or AfroAmerican or whatever, he/she will be reduced to their duty share/legal portion. Because that is his right: he has a right to any reasons whatever to dispose a child and reduce it to their legal portion.

That was the case in the Hohenzollern and Leiningen-cases. The still living prince decided that he did not like the choice of wife of some of his sons (Hohenzollern) or his elder son (Leiningen) and left the control of the family trust to another child. Completely legal - the court need not evaluate the reasons of a testator's decisions, it's enough that he had the right to dispose of the estate.

As an aside: interesting that the prince of Leiningen lost the wife immediately after he lost the case.... She moved on to richer meadowns on marrying the Aga Khan... I think she is divorced now for a second time.-

As for the Berleburg-case:
that is different. Because the old prince wanted his grandson (still unborn) to inherit. He did not want to disinherit him. He only made a condition. But conditions have to meet the German laws.

If an heir has it in its own power to fulfill them, they are valid. Eg. the testator asks his potential heir to change his job and take over the management of the inheritance otherwise he'll loose the inheritance. It's up to the heir to comply or not. But the stipulation is valid.

But there are conditions that are "contra bonos mores" - they are immoral and thus void.

The "aryan"-stipulation could well be void as this is clearly "contra bonos mores". Still, the actual wording of the will is important to decide how to deal with the actual stipulation.

Alas, in Germany you need to have valid legal reasons to get a copy of a will. So as long as the Berleburg's don't publish the actual will, there is no way to get to read it till the case is being discussed in legal circles (then there is a "scientific interest" in it.)

So we have to wait and see. But one thing is sure: the outcome of the Hohenzollern and Leiningen cases have nothing to do with the outcome of the Berleburg-case as the legal questions are very much different.
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  #115  
Old 12-06-2007, 10:50 AM
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i think it's a shame they aren't able to marry yet, disgraceful as a matter of fact. carina is a sweet, lovely woman perhaps she's secure in his love and acceptance into the family and doesn't want him to give up his heritage for her. she's loved and accepted as his partner and thats wonderful, maybe thats enough and she doesn't want to be the reason so many lives would be changed. i wish them all the happiness and this stupid will business cleared up soon.
if the german decision is saying "a family matter" not a courts, does that leave gustav back at square one? a will unable to be broken?
thanks for your insights in the german case jo of palatine
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  #116  
Old 12-06-2007, 01:02 PM
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i think it's a shame they aren't able to marry yet, disgraceful as a matter of fact. carina is a sweet, lovely woman perhaps she's secure in his love and acceptance into the family and doesn't want him to give up his heritage for her. she's loved and accepted as his partner and thats wonderful, maybe thats enough and she doesn't want to be the reason so many lives would be changed. i wish them all the happiness and this stupid will business cleared up soon.
if the german decision is saying "a family matter" not a courts, does that leave gustav back at square one? a will unable to be broken?
thanks for your insights in the german case jo of palatine
Without knowing the text of the will it's not possible to say anything really, but yes, if the court doesn't decide that the condition is invalid, then it's valid and Gustav looses all on marrying.

There would have been another way if the family were unified against the will. It happened in another princely house (Oettingen-Wallerstein)that the old prince did not want his son to become his heir and left all to the baby son of his son, naming three noble men (including the prince of Fuerstenberg) as executors of the will. These three then after the death of the old prince named the new prince, the disinherited son as manager for his baby son and when the hereditary prince turned 18, he signed the control of the family fortune over to his father. It worked because the three executors thought it was injust to skip the son, that the family fortune needed management and that the heir should decide himself when he was grown-up. It seems he at least trusted his father!

But for the Berleburg to simply ignore the condition, they need to present a unified front with no other potential heir alarming the courts and of course the executors must act against the will as well and not take Gustav in case of his marriage against the stipulations to court which they would do either because they would want to do their duty or for fear the next heir
could sue them for neglecting their job. Maybe it took so long till now because they were trying to negociate such a internal dismissal of the stipulation of the will and only went public when they realised they had to contest the will at court. I don't know but it would explain why it takes so long.
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  #117  
Old 12-06-2007, 02:15 PM
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disputed wills can bring out the worst in people, so perhaps a family decision isn't in the cards. it's sad two nice people can't get married and have a family over something an old man did in the last century, without turning alot of lives upside down. as my niece is fond of saying "that stinks" lol
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  #118  
Old 12-06-2007, 03:50 PM
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I don´t believe that Berleburg House respects rules. It´s a non reigning House. I Think Gustav has to decide If He wants to marry.
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  #119  
Old 12-06-2007, 05:52 PM
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I don´t believe that Berleburg House respects rules. It´s a non reigning House. I Think Gustav has to decide If He wants to marry.
Of course they all have to abide to German laws - they are German citizens, after all. And if the next heir claims that Gustav's marriage violates the terms of the will under which he inherited, then he may go to court and ask for a verdict. If this other heir wins, then he gets a title allowing him to disown Gustav. It's as easy as that.
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  #120  
Old 12-07-2007, 05:20 AM
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If this other heir wins, then he gets a title allowing him to disown Gustav. It's as easy as that.

There is other Heir of the Berleburg House?
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