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  #441  
Old 06-12-2009, 07:12 PM
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Well ... what a strange situation Prince Guastav and Ms. Axelsson have found themselves in ... By the way, I have fully been unaware of the will. It is hard for me to pass a judgment on the matter due to the difficulty to determine who is more responsible for not urging to make the union official.
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  #442  
Old 06-12-2009, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgl
I don't know how German law works in relation to this issue (maybe one of our German members could explain?), but it sounds like it is still a valid clause, and that is what is causing the problem. I think the courts are trying to figure out whether it could be overturned or not.
I found it difficult to understand all the question related to the issue of the will, particularly the question whether a will like that contradicts German Law or Human Rights. However, after reading this thread (from the beginning), I found answers to most of my questions.

I suggest you to read the following posts by people, who have explained the matter far better than I ever could:

Post 1, Post 2, Post 3, Post 4, Post 5, Post 6, Post 7, Post 8, Post 9, Post 10, Post 11, Post 12, Post 13, Post 14, Post 15
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  #443  
Old 06-12-2009, 07:24 PM
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That is one will !!!
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"To watch the sun sink behind a flower clad hill.
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And, subtle shadows of bamboo on bamboo." Zeami Motokiyo
  #444  
Old 06-12-2009, 07:46 PM
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Jo of Palatine brings up an excellent point in post 15, and NotAPretender brings up an excellent point in post 14. Perhaps they simply choose not to marry. Either way, it is their decision on what to do about this situation, regardless of what the court decides. I do think that it is great that Carina has been so warmly accepted into the family, and perhaps that is enough for her. I guess that we won't know until they either announce the court's decision, or announce an engagement. All that matters is that they truly love each other (not for material reasons), and that they are happy together.
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  #445  
Old 06-13-2009, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido View Post
Yes, Mary and Maxima did wear tiaras when their engagement was officially announced and their wedding was sure 100%. In the case of Carina, nothing is sure. Gustav can marry her at any time if he is willing to renounce his rights. But they consider money and title more important than their love.

I totally agree. If they love each other they should marry anyway, will or no will.
The especially should if they want to start a family.
This proves to me that their social standing is more important for them, at least for him.
In this day and age, where crownprinces have fought against their parents, the establishment, politics and public opinion so that they could marry with the love of their lives, if find it a bit sad that this minor royal (prince Gustav) is letting a stupid will determining his way of life...
If I were her I would feel insulted, but appearantly she is ok with this situation.
I understand that maintaining a certain position can be really important in such a family, but if it would have such a big impact on my life I would make decisions based on how I feel towards a person and not base my decision on what I would/could lose because of a will.
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  #446  
Old 06-13-2009, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsel77 View Post
I found it difficult to understand all the question related to the issue of the will, particularly the question whether a will like that contradicts German Law or Human Rights. However, after reading this thread (from the beginning), I found answers to most of my questions.

I suggest you to read the following posts by people, who have explained the matter far better than I ever could:

Post 1, Post 2, Post 3, Post 4, Post 5, Post 6, Post 7, Post 8, Post 9, Post 10, Post 11, Post 12, Post 13, Post 14, Post 15
thank you very much Marsel77, these posts are very useful. It is clear now that to judge better the situation we should know something more on the precise terms of the unpublished will: I am particularly intersted in what would happen to prince Richard's rights (the ones of beneficiate of the estate) if Gustav renounce his rights.
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  #447  
Old 06-15-2009, 10:00 AM
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She is not married to G.

Then in what way is she allowed to wear a tiara???

The tiara, I think, is destined for members of the RF.

doesn' it???
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  #448  
Old 06-15-2009, 12:00 PM
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I think that your questions have been answered by post #424 and 430 in this thread.
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To wander on in a huge forest without thought of return. To stand upon the shore and gaze after a boat that disappears behind distant islands. To contemplate the flight of wild geese seen and lost among the clouds.
And, subtle shadows of bamboo on bamboo." Zeami Motokiyo
  #449  
Old 06-15-2009, 01:27 PM
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Tiaras are usually associated with royalty or nobility, but that does not mean it is a noble privilege to wear one. If you are invited to a white-tie-event and you happen to have a tiara, you may wear it. Check out the pictures from the gallery: http://msndk.starlounge.com/index.cfm?objectid=55349&imagenr=1
There are a lot of women wearing tiaras, and not all come with an aristocratic title (as far as I can tell).

Imo lending a tiara to Carina is a very nice sign of support for Gustav and Carina. It shows that the family accepts her as the women by Gustav’s site.
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  #450  
Old 06-15-2009, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Tilia C. View Post
Imo lending a tiara to Carina is a very nice sign of support for Gustav and Carina. It shows that the family accepts her as the women by Gustav’s site.
I agree with you. She is practically Gustav's wife so why shouldn't she be allowed to wear a tiara.
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  #451  
Old 06-15-2009, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lumutqueen View Post
I agree with you. She is practically Gustav's wife so why shouldn't she be allowed to wear a tiara.

Just because Carina is NOT Gustav's wife. They have never been married.
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  #452  
Old 06-15-2009, 04:01 PM
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There is no law that's forbidding an unmarried woman to borrow a tiara. Nor is it forbidden for a commoner to wear one. If Princess Benedikte does't mind Carina wearing her tiara, and if the royal family of Denmark doesn't mind her wearing it on the gala, everything is fine to me.
And if other royal families handle such things differently, that is perfectly ok, but not a law that has to be kept by everybody.
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  #453  
Old 06-15-2009, 05:32 PM
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Princess Benedikte was the one who agreed to lend her tiara to Carina. Nobody forced her to lend the tiara. It was her decision. If she is okay with Carina wearing her tiara, and the Danish Royal Family doesn't seem to mind, then it really isn't a big deal. To my knowledge, there is no established protocol for the wearing of tiaras in Denmark.
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  #454  
Old 06-15-2009, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik-Jan77 View Post
She tries to look like a princess, but she is NOT.
Somehow it appears strange to me that a woman who is not a princess or from any other nobility wears a tiara.
It is my personal opinion but I find it a bit tacky.
IF she marries prince Gustav, THEN she can wear a tiara.
Call me old-fashioned, but if she can wear a tiara, my sister can too...
I have to say that I agree with you. It rubbed me the wrong way. I don't know why--it didn't bother me when she wore it to Marie's wedding, but now it seems that she's trying too hard??
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  #455  
Old 06-15-2009, 06:29 PM
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Is there any time frame for the will to be challenged are they actually doing it?? Just curious.
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  #456  
Old 06-15-2009, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BurberryBrit View Post
I have to say that I agree with you. It rubbed me the wrong way. I don't know why--it didn't bother me when she wore it to Marie's wedding, but now it seems that she's trying too hard??
I believe that I stated something along the same train of thought earlier in this thread; she seems to relish being "A Princess" yet she isn't. It will be very interesting to see how this turns out.
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  #457  
Old 07-14-2009, 02:14 PM
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The couple has been trying to overturn the will since 2006, according to several articles that I have seen.

I'd caution those who search for information about this couple that there is a lot of spin and disinformation about them. In one blog, it is stated that Axelsson does not know how to speak English; she was born, raised, and attended high school in Santa Clara, California - English is her first language. For a long time, her age was a movable feast - anywhere from 32 to 36, but never her actual age of 39 (at the time); it was not until a member here actually found her birth records at California's Vital Statistics, and published them here, that the correct info ended up in the press and the couple sheepishly admitted to her age.

Tiaras are a symbol of wealth; my family owns one that dates to the 1830's, although the wealth that gave us that piece was expropriated by the Soviets in 1945. A tiara is merely a piece of jewelry, denoting nothing but an ability to have one's hair adorned by expensive gems. The lending of the tiara by the family to Axelsson does denote a certain acceptance, and I think that is what the objection is to, here; by wearing a piece of jewelry associated with a noble family of which she is not an official member, it has all the appearance of, shall we say, desperation, the more-than-whiff of "I am SO a member, so THERE!"

If I were Carina, I'd decline to wear such things again until my position was solidified. It's all a game of fairy-tale pretend; no matter how much it's glossified, this aging ex-model is a paramour.

The will was established for wealth preservation. And preserve his wealth, Gustav is doing - preserving it for himself. The next heir should be, if not already be, preparing to step into the role. If the will is overturned (unlikely, as it violates no Human Rights provisions) and Gustav marries Carina, the chances of a child being born are, according to accepted tables, very low. After the age of 40, 90% of a woman's eggs are genetically abnormal, resulting in higher rates of birth defects and spontaneous miscarriage. First children in one's forties are even more rare. So the next heir should be ready to step in. If the will is upheld, then that is really going to be the test of the "true love" of this pair, then, isn't it? He has to marry her and lose all his precious stuff, or not marry her into perpetuity. Pretty bad spot for her to be in, no matter what. So, if she wants to wear a tiara now and again to make up for that, fine.

I don't read all that awfully much into a ring and a kind word from a kind lady. Fergie had a diamond and ruby ring from Andrew, and it didn't mean a lot to her; I've been engaged twice without marrying either of those gentlemen, each time with a ring and acceptance by the future in-laws.

If I were her, I'd make darned sure I'd hired my own counsel regarding an appropriate settlement if the relationship fails for any reason. She's staked a lot on very little, and has no legal standing whatsoever. Gustav could wipe out in a car accident, and the house and stuff go to his next heir immediately - nothing and no place to live for her. The will could be overturned, they marry, and have no heirs. Gustav predeceases her, and again, nothing and no place to live for her, as the entirety is entailed. The will could be upheld, Gustav decide that having the stuff is just as important as it always was, and Carina is gone, in favor of a bride who meets the criteria.

No, this has gone from being a teeny slice of a maybe fairy-tale, to a grubby grasp of material posessions and greedy desire to have it all without sacrifice. The grandfather's will was never intended, I'm sure, to force such a choice. But in the end, it's about money. Title is part of it, but money is the fullest expression of it.

Hobsian choice, eh?
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  #458  
Old 07-14-2009, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotAPretender
The couple has been trying to overturn the will since 2006, according to several articles that I have seen.
Gustav and Carina announced their decision to overturn the will in 2007, however it is well possible they had made inquires earlier.


Quote:
<...> The next heir should be, if not already be, preparing to step into the role.
If Prince Gustav isn’t able to obtain annulment for the will or if he has no legitimate Heirs, the next in the line (who meets all the requirements of the current will) is the first-born son of Prince Robin, Prince Richard’s brother. Prince Robin was married to a noblewoman in his first marriage, so if his eldest son, born from that marriage, does nothing to contradict the terms of the will, he is theoretically the next Heir.

Quote:
<...>If the will is overturned (unlikely, as it violates no Human Rights provisions)... <...>
The more I learn of the terms of the will, less likely invalidation seems. As it has been pointed out, the will does not actually forbid them to marry, it just stipulates that should a marriage that contradicts the terms of the will take place, Prince Gustav will have to surrender the hereditary rights and privileges coming with it.
German law is very specific that a person is fully entitled to leave their legal possessions to anyone they wish. Unless Gustav’s lawyers are able to prove that his grandfather was heavily influenced (preferably against his will or better judgement) by the political atmosphere of the time (which is very unlikely, in my opinion and could only be used to void the “Aryan” clause), I don’t see how they can nullify the will.
Another chance to invalidate the will is to use the argument (brought by German Highest federal Court in a ruling for a similar Leiningen case) that there is need of a ruling against an existing person, not any person in general. This is explained a lot clearer in these posts: post 1, post 2.

The terms of the will as such are hardly more excessive than the discrimination against Catholics in the British Succession Laws (Sophia Naturalization Act). If a court were to rule in favour of invalidating the will, than it would be a strong precedent for similar discriminative laws in all other Royal Families, starting from the need to seek the Monarch’s permission, or equal primogeniture.


Quote:
<...>and Gustav marries Carina, the chances of a child being born are, according to accepted tables, very low. After the age of 40, 90% of a woman's eggs are genetically abnormal, resulting in higher rates of birth defects and spontaneous miscarriage. First children in one's forties are even more rare. So the next heir should be ready to step in. If the will is upheld, then that is really going to be the test of the "true love" of this pair, then, isn't it? He has to marry her and lose all his precious stuff, or not marry her into perpetuity. Pretty bad spot for her to be in, no matter what. So, if she wants to wear a tiara now and again to make up for that, fine.

I think there is nothing that prevents Gustav and Carina from having children whenever they wish, even before their (possible) marriage: even if Gustav fathers any children out of wedlock, he will just have to acknowledge and legally adopt them and his eldest son will be his Heir, whether Gustav was married to his mother or not. German Law allows that and if the situation with the will doesn’t get clearer, I believe such outcome is increasingly likely. Another alternative is a marriage in Church without public law marriage. Carina will be Princess Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, their children will be legitimate and will have inheritance rights, as has been explained in this post.



I have also found an answer to an earlier question by one of the members (I apologize for not remembering the specific post where the question was asked): could one of the conditions of the will, specifically, the clause about the prospective bride’s nobility, be bypassed if Carina is ‘ennobled’ by Queen Margrethe? The answer is unfortunately no; the will is very specific on the issue and requires at least four generations of nobility.
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  #459  
Old 07-14-2009, 04:15 PM
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Just a note of correction, NAP:

It was Netty Lestria from the Nobiliana Forums who researched and found, on the California State Records, Carina's detailed information including her age. It was then posted here on TRF's days later then picked up by the press.

In addition, we don't know if she attended high school in Santa Clara (somewhere in Santa Cruz is more likeky since it has been confirmed via her bio from her Literary agent, that she grew up there) per se. However, we do know she was born in Santa Clara County.
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  #460  
Old 07-14-2009, 04:28 PM
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so the press was allowed to take it from here and publish? how did she and the family react to that?
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