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  #301  
Old 06-19-2008, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
She is 32, I believe.
I wouldn't believe. She is older.
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  #302  
Old 06-19-2008, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by PrincessDianafan View Post
How old is Carina?

Nobody really knows. Some reports state that she is in her early thrities; yet in a recent article about her they noted that she was 39 years old.

So once again, no one really knows for sure at this point.
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  #303  
Old 06-19-2008, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by PrincessDianafan View Post
So the will still hasn't been thrown out? This is the 21st century, what is taking the courts so long?
Quick question. When Prince Richard passes and Gustav inherits all that is his can he turn around and legally marry Carina? Hopefully this is going to be a long way down the road so who will be the next in line after Gustav?
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  #304  
Old 06-19-2008, 10:14 PM
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Odette, Richard never inherited the Berleburg estate - his father (the one who wrote the will) skipped his son and left it all to his unborn grandson (Gustav), which was a common thing during the time of the war, so that the family didn't have to pay two lots of death tax in the space of a few years. There is more information about the ifs and whats further back in the thread
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  #305  
Old 06-20-2008, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JessRulz View Post
Odette, Richard never inherited the Berleburg estate - his father (the one who wrote the will) skipped his son and left it all to his unborn grandson (Gustav), which was a common thing during the time of the war, so that the family didn't have to pay two lots of death tax in the space of a few years. There is more information about the ifs and whats further back in the thread
Thank you Jess. I am going to get me a hot cup of coffee and start from the beginning. I will hopefully be able to navigate through the posts about Carina's eyebrows or lack of and get to the bottom of this.
However I find it sad that Gustav's cousins can marry commoners and fashion them HRH and he cannot even get married to the one he loves.........
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  #306  
Old 06-24-2008, 04:56 PM
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The Will and Being Able to Marry

OK. The following is not a discussion about either of this couple’s career or lack thereof, weight, height or teeth.

It’s about the entire overturning-the-will situation. And this is what I find distasteful about it.

Prince Gustav was engaged before. Clearly, because his parents announced the engagement - it was on the DRF Web site - and no mention of any inheritance problems came up at that time, one presumes that the prior fiancé, Miss Elvire Pasté de Rochefort, was the “right” sort according to the will of the grandfather.

Now, it is the same will that is under consideration today. Nothing has changed to the document.

Gustav can marry Carina, any time he wishes. There is no law or no will preventing him from doing so. He is not being denied the right to his bride of choice. He chooses not to marry her, for the purposes that certainly appear to be based solely on materiality.

If it is wrong now to require that the bride of Prince Gustav be “Aryan,” as well as noble and the other requirements at the cost of these material items, it was just as wrong when Gustav was engaged to Elvire Pasté de Rochefort, in 2000. But because there were no financial penalties to the equation at that time with that choice of bride, Prince Gustav and the Berleburg family were willing to accept the money, titles, and stuff along with the conditions of that very same will.

No one spared a scruple at that time for whether the terms were offensive, illegal, fascist, or any other label. Those terms of inheritance were accepted at that time, for Prince Gustav and his presumed bride Elvire Pasté de Rochefort.

So now, it’s a new fiancé, or partner, or what-have-you. Again, nothing has changed except the choice of bride. The heir has not changed, the will has not changed, the terms of the will which govern the bride of Berleburg have not changed. However, this choice of bride causes the Gustav to lose out on money, title, property, etc.

Now, only when there will be direct affect to themselves, is suddenly there a hand-wringing and a hue-and-cry about how unfair the terms of the will are, how unjust, how unloving, and how simply dreadful it would be if Prince Gustav could not marry Ms. Axelsson, etc etc.

Well, their collective conscience appears to have only been awakened when there was financial detriment.

That’s. Awfully. Convenient.

It would have made a lot more impact if Prince Gustav had not waited until he felt his own pocket was being picked before deciding to raise a protest against the nature and terms of his grandfather’s will. The best that could be said is that there is a certain air of hollowness about the protest of the will, given the circumstances under which the family finally decided to try to have it overturned. I might even say it is the very definition of cynical, to act in this manner.

I would have a great deal more respect for them if they simply declared that they were life partners, get married, and live as husband and wife without resorting to pretending that they find the will horrifying and are protesting it on grounds of human dignity. It’s possible to live without titles, property, money, jewels. It’s even possible to live rich, loving, and fully conscious lives without these things. I venture that most of us who post here live rich lives without a fraction of this sort of “stuff.”

Don’t get me wrong; I would love to see the will overturned. That kind of language has no place in this world. At all.

That being said: the will was just fine by the standards of the family before now, in all its exclusions.

I don’t think that the Berleburg family is protesting this will based on human rights issues. That’s merely the costuming that they have dressed it in. They are protesting this will so that Prince Gustav can “have it all.”

By not objecting to it during his earlier engagement, they gave it tacit approval. Now, they are protesting this will so that one particular man can have one particular woman – richly, splendidly, with accoutrements.

Again - Gustav can marry her, any time he wishes. . He chooses not to marry her, based on material issues - as a form of wealth management.

To me, it’s at the very least disingenuous to pretend that this is anything other than an unwillingness to sacrifice “lucre” for a principle.

Or even to sacrifice money for “true love.”

YMMV.
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  #307  
Old 06-24-2008, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
It will go to the next male heir of the Berleburg Family. Not to Alexandra's descendants.
I spent a whole week reading throughout the entire thread.
Logically ( my logic at least) speaking Gustav and Carina are having another 6-8 years to fight the will, win/lose, get married and have children. ( Carina's clock is ticking)
So what if Gustav forgoes his title as the head of the family, hands over the title and all the privilege that this brings along and marries Carina. AFTER the next in line guarantees him an income from the estate, titles for Carina and his descendants? I am sure there is a large fortune for everyone to be happy. If Gustav truly loves Carina he should be able to put all material things aside for her sake and I am sure she would be happy marrying the prince she loves with or without the titles.
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  #308  
Old 06-26-2008, 10:13 AM
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I think that's well stated, Odette

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odette View Post
I spent a whole week reading throughout the entire thread.
Logically ( my logic at least) speaking Gustav and Carina are having another 6-8 years to fight the will, win/lose, get married and have children. ( Carina's clock is ticking)
So what if Gustav forgoes his title as the head of the family, hands over the title and all the privilege that this brings along and marries Carina. AFTER the next in line guarantees him an income from the estate, titles for Carina and his descendants? I am sure there is a large fortune for everyone to be happy. If Gustav truly loves Carina he should be able to put all material things aside for her sake and I am sure she would be happy marrying the prince she loves with or without the titles.

I think that's well stated. I think it's an interesting thought that you have, that the next heir would pay a stipend to Gustav in return for stepping aside.

Does anyone know the current status of the lawsuit? Last I heard, it was still under consideration.
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  #309  
Old 06-26-2008, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
I would have a great deal more respect for them if they simply declared that they were life partners, get married, and live as husband and wife without resorting to pretending that they find the will horrifying and are protesting it on grounds of human dignity.
The thing is that the Berleburg are basically owners of forest, of real existing soil and the responsibility that comes from it. They're not owners of "virtual" money that is not affected if ownership changes. If they stop working their land, if they stop living in their castle, someone has to upkeep it if they loose it. That "someone" being the German taxpayer. As one of those I personally prefer that the land and immobiles stay in their responsibility.

So let the Berleburg's keep what they have. People are invited to cisit the historical part of the Castle, people can walk their dogs or children or themselves in the forests. So it's quite the sort of community estate of the old times, other than some properties here in the South which had to be sold and were bought by "private citizens who want to keep their privacy". The Berleburgs like many nobles keep in touch with "their people" and compared to other rich people owning land, this is nice to experience.

You asked why they didn't contest that will: I'd say because that costs enormous amounts of money that will be missing when the next part of the Castle has to be restored or the next part of the forest is destroyed by bugs and has to be reforested. You have to be rich enough to afford the right kind of politcal correctness and Im afraid the Berleburgs are not that rich. And good for them that they do it now when real lives of real people are affected.
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  #310  
Old 06-26-2008, 12:44 PM
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Thoughtful response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
.

You have to be rich enough to afford the right kind of politcal correctness and Im afraid the Berleburgs are not that rich. And good for them that they do it now when real lives of real people are affected.
No, Jo, I really don't agree. One doesn't have to be rich to "afford" the "right" kind of political correctness. Just to have a conscience. And bigotry, hatred, and exclusion has always affected real lives, real people.

This will has always affected the Berleburg family as well. It just wasn't something that affected them negatively before.

They are fighting it because it has affected them negatively; perhaps they consider themselves and their money as the only people, the only cause worth fighting for; I'd like not to think so, but the pattern here pretty damning on the prima facie.

I am heartened by the fact that this young woman (well, the appellation of "young" does appear in question, but no matter :-) ) is embraced by the family, but it doesn't change my essential argument that they aren't fighting for her, they are fighting for the money & the stuff, to keep, for themselves.

Sacrificing for the one you love isn't new or radical; he can marry her if he is willing to sacrifice. The money and property stay within the Berleburg family, the titles remain, etc. The woods, the house, the land...all of these are immobile, and will be part of the landscape forever. There is just a new holder of the title, and that is whoever is next in line.

I really never asked why they didn't fight it before. They accepted it before. They just did - no questions asked.

The will-overturning attempt seems cynical, and selfish, and self-serving to me. Had he not been engaged before, to the "right" (ugh!) sort of bride, I probably would not feel the same.

But one can't dress this up as a fight against bigotry, when it fact it's a fight for money/land/title/materiality.

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  #311  
Old 06-27-2008, 01:50 PM
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And Carina seems very willing to wait....for the lifestyle and everything that goes with it.
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  #312  
Old 06-27-2008, 02:17 PM
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Thank you for posting your comments, NaP.

However, I must say that this case isn't as black and white as some may believe. There is much more to this Will drama than the public may know, and it seems to me that Carina does not want Gustav to give up everything in order to marry her (which I understand.) If she is happy with being the official life companion (with a huge ruby and diamond ring on her wedding finger) and the official Lady of the Schloss then so be it, and who cares about the whole "clock ticking" baby thing. I wish the couple happiness... married or not.

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  #313  
Old 06-27-2008, 09:32 PM
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GT if the whole idea is about preserving the inheritance and keeping in Gustav's control what it entails, then the idea of living happily ever after and who cares about the clock ticking, goes against the whole fight they have.
If Carina and Gustav are happy to stay in this situation forever, good for them but the whole idea is the preservation of the fortune and its transfer to their heirs. If there will be no heirs because neither one of them cares then why they do not forgo of the ties and responsibilities and live a normal life?
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  #314  
Old 06-27-2008, 09:37 PM
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GT if the whole idea is about preserving the inheritance and keeping in Gustav's control what it entails, then the idea of living happily ever after and who cares about the clock ticking, goes against the whole fight they have.
True. But if that should happen, then oh well.

On the flipside, what happens if she becomes pregnant (baby clock ticking) outside of marriage hence as the official life companion... does that go against the whole issue? Will the child be passed over? Off the top of my head, I'm not sure, but I doubt it. They can still have kids together even if they are not married. So let them be.
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  #315  
Old 06-27-2008, 10:00 PM
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I believe it was Jo of Palentine who said earlier in the thread that by German law, if Gustav and Carina were to have a child out of wedlock, Gustav could adopt the baby and then the baby would become heir/ess to the Berleburg estate, hence securing the future of the family/estate
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  #316  
Old 06-28-2008, 07:26 AM
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I believe it was Jo of Palentine who said earlier in the thread that by German law, if Gustav and Carina were to have a child out of wedlock, Gustav could adopt the baby and then the baby would become heir/ess to the Berleburg estate, hence securing the future of the family/estate
Voila'.....Could someone call them up and let them know we solved their problems?
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  #317  
Old 06-28-2008, 07:50 AM
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Pfft... yeah right.
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  #318  
Old 06-29-2008, 08:35 PM
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A bit mysterious, more details, please

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Originally Posted by GlitteringTiaras View Post
Thank you for posting your comments, NaP.

However, I must say that this case isn't as black and white as some may believe. There is much more to this Will drama than the public may know... married or not.


GT - what details have we missed? As moderator of this forum, I presume that in making this statement, that you have additional information that you wish to share. I for one would be delighted to hear what "much more" there is. It's quite an interesting case study in all ways.

I certainly made no attempt to characterize this as a simple matter. As I believe I wrote back in post #204 on 4/7/2008:

If he chooses to make this woman his life partner, then there may be a price to be paid for that. Clearly, he doesn't think he should have to pay any price at all. Few things are that simple.If he chooses to make this woman his life partner, then there may be a price to be paid for that. Clearly, he doesn't think he should have to pay any price at all. Few things are that simple.

Was there an earlier attempt to overturn the will, perhaps, not based in pecuniary needs? Were there other legal maneuvers done between engagements? Prior to the original engagement?

Thank you in advance for this information, I'm certain that you did not mean to be cryptic.

Yes, it has been mentioned that having a child is also perfectly within the rights of the couple. It would be interesting to see how long this case drags through the courts, and at what stage in the stakes the couple might resort to that as their "best" option for wealth management and family planning.
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  #319  
Old 06-29-2008, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
what details have we missed? As moderator of this forum, I presume that in making this statement, that you have additional information that you wish to share. I for one would be delighted to hear what "much more" there is. It's quite an interesting case study in all ways.
There was an article awhile back in which it stated that there was more to the situation than the public knows about. When I find the piece I'll post it for all to read for themselves.

Quote:
Was there an earlier attempt to overturn the will, perhaps, not based in pecuniary needs?
No idea.


Quote:
Were there other legal maneuvers done between engagements?
Don't know.

Quote:
Prior to the original engagement?
Not sure.


Quote:
Thank you in advance for this information, I'm certain that you did not mean to be cryptic.
No problem and not at all. I pretty know the same information (which I post when I find it or if someone else does) as the small select few who are interested in this case and the couple on a whole.

What it all boils down to, in my opinion, if Carina is happy with being the official life companion and the Lady of the Schloss for the rest of her life, then so be it. I just find it bizarre that some insist that she should leave him if they aren't married by now. Strange. I guess I'm not like other women who believe that in order to have a life with someone they desperately need to be married. All marriage is a signed piece of paper. I know couples, gay and straight, who have been together for years without being married and they are perfectly happy. Why do people need to get married? Why? Most marriages end in divorce these days anyway. Save yourself the financial headache and keep seperate accounts...

Look, the situation with Gustav and Carina doesn't look good. The case has been dragging on and on for years now, and it seems that the two, without publically stating it, realize that the best thing is for them to be life partners. I know Gustav has said that he will marry her one day ("It will happen."), but when... not anytime soon as long as that one dude is still in the way.

I hope that made some sense.
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Old 06-30-2008, 08:36 AM
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Well, we can certainly agree on that

I am also of the opinion that if they want to live together and raise a family, then it's fine, with or without marriage. While I don't hold that marriage is simply a "piece of paper," I personally know many couples who have maintained strong relationships without being able to marry, for decades.

It seems, though, that marriage is the ideal for this couple - else why go through the efforts & expense of trying to overturn the will? I would suggest that it is their ardent desire to wed - and maintain the property - that has led to the suit and to this fascinating discussion.

By the way....who did we decide was the "next heir" of the Berleburg? Given that Alexandra's children do not represent the next heir, who will inherit after Gustav, should he and Carina fail to, er, reproduce?
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