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  #141  
Old 05-02-2010, 01:52 AM
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It really boils down to the old double standard. Princes can be seen going to sports events and partying afterward or to clubs or whatever and it's the," boys will be boys", attitude. How many times have we seen Prince so and so on a well deserved night out?, per media. If a Princess does the same, it's perceived as trouble in the marriage especially if she attends with men friends.
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  #142  
Old 05-02-2010, 03:48 AM
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I cannot imagine there will be many raised eyebrows over this in Denmark.
That Marie is going to a nightclub with friends is something basically only royal watchers will even notice.
Most will simply think: Great, Marie is having fun with her friends. Good for her. And that will be it.
Unless she is dead-drunk, completely stoned, stripping while dancing on a table or attempting to grope every man in sight, this will in no way be percieved as dubious behavior.

She is surrounded by friends in a public place. She was going to a night club, where many of the group of people who aqquiant the DRF go. No doubt she would have met quite a few at that club, whom she already knew.
She was basically socialising with the same sphere of people, she is otherwise socialising with, formal and informally, when she is Copenhagen.
Should Marie start to get drunk, her friends, if they are true friends, would intervene. Should anyone try to hit on her or there should be other kinds of trouble, people would form a protective screen around her, as they have in the past with Frederik, who was a very frequent guest at all sorts of nightclubs.
The Danish jet set after all only consists of a few thousand people in total and they have a tendency to mingle with each other in the same places and as such they more or less know everybody else.

From an infidelity point of view, I'd say that a nightclub is about the safest place la Marie could go in the eyes of Joachim. Marie could hardly have a fling with anyone there without that fact being known to him within a few nanoseconds. He would have much more reason to be concerned if she went to a private party, away from the public glare. Or Marie "just going shopping with some friends".

But I have seen no hints whatsoever that Marie and Joachim's marriage should be strained, nor have I ever heard about Marie being the least bit "loose".

ADDED: According to MSN Starlounge http://msndk.starlounge.com/index.cfm?objectid=82521 Marie went out with a few of her friends. They arrived at the night club at around 23.00 and left again around 01.00, where she was escorted to her car. Presumably either to drive back to Amalienborg or being driven back. (PET usually don't accompany Marie and Joachim). At the club she met Niklas Bendtner, the boyfriend of one of her friends, Caroline Fleming. He was there with some friends as well.
She was seen dancing and having fun.

It may be a cultural thing but here in DK, there is a good deal of respect around what people do in private, even in public places. Yet. The magazines are hesitant to write too detailed about it as the readers have a tendency to react against it.
A number of years ago a government minister dragged his mistress to a public event. Editors admitted later that it was a boderline issue, but they didn't write about it. That minister's sexual exploits was considered a private matter.

In my opinion it's not only her right to go out with her friends, it's beneficial.
Now, Mrs. Muhler is not a princess but she often go out with her friends and I would feel pretty silly if I insisted on going with her to say, watch male strippers. The bottom line is of course that if she is having fun, I'm happy And she has so many opportunities to have a fling anyway, that I cannot prevent it unless I locked her up. - And so have I. Opportunities that is.

Where were Joachim? No idea, perhaps he was watching the world championship in snooker, like me, completely oblivious to the rest of the world. And la Marie could A) watch it with her husband, while yawning her jaws to shreds or B) go out with some friends.
(Or C) like my dear counterpart, text her thumb to pieces while finding a sadistic glee in commenting on the utter pointlessness of two adult men using a stick to hit coloured balls with ).
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  #143  
Old 05-02-2010, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
However, I still prefer princesses with their husbands or family, I think.
i see nothing wrong with a princess going out with her friends from time to time. otherwise, we are coming back to basics, when women were not allowed out without someone to supervise them? we are in the 21st century and it's more than normal that marie wants to go out with her friends from time to time. it's not that she parties everyday and leaves her household duties unattended. everyone needs a break, which also includes a break from the person you are with 90% of your time. this reinforces relationships.

Quote:
Seriously, the idea that a woman, princess or otherwise, can't ever go anywhere with someone who isn't their husband is extremely Victorian in its sensibility. I sincerely doubt Marie is bringing shame to the house of Laborde de Monpezat by going out with some friends, one of whom is a gay man.
indeed. this looks to me like any other girls get together drinking some wine and enjoying some company.
Quote:
You've missed the point. A nightclub at night is very different from having time with one's friends.

She has a certain place in the social hierarchy of Denmark and should remember this. She is not Marie Cavallier any more. There is a difference.

It has nothing to do with being or not being Joaquim's property. It has to do with understanding the place she now holds in Danish society. It requires a certain amount of discretion with regard to how you carry on your activities.

To pretend she is a regular person, in spite of privileged status, living behind locked gates, walls, with many servants, entering a room with pomp and circumstance, being chauffered around, receiving flowers from curtsying children, all of that puts her in a different social place which she needs to remember when she is out in public.

She does hold a special rank and it is unbecoming for her to go on socializing in nightclubs with men without her prince around.

Why didn't Joaquim attend this outing - where was he?
i understand your point only in the situation that marie went out, partied, drunk too much every night. but this is not the case. initially, i dont think we will ever see that kind of behaviour in marie. she looks like a well-rounded, intelligent individual. i believe it's one of the first times we get to see her out with friends since she married. we have seen mary out and about in concerts, restaurants, shopping sprees, nights out etc with girlfriends in numerous times also.

Quote:
Marie will always remain a french middle-class young women . I miss Alexandra.
In mine opinion middle-class means without background , this has nothing to do with money!
what do you mean by "without background"? marie attended some fine schools when she was little and was raised very appropriately by her family. she studied abroad, travelled, speaks languages and seems appreciated by everyone in her new life as royal. i believe her background is certainly more than suitable.
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  #144  
Old 05-02-2010, 09:32 AM
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I appreciate the "boys will be boys" quote. That is precisely my point.

Once the precedents are set, there is no turning back. Joaquim did his fair share of going about town, to bars, private parties, indeed he was even flirting in Australia at the bar where Frederik met Mary, all of this while married to Alexandra.

The marriage may well have had deep cracks in it it while he was out having a good time with friends without his wife, but these good times certainly did nothing to improve it.

I'm not saying, or even suggesting, that Marie is trying to pick up men. I'm just stating the fact that a married woman needs to be careful about going out on the town without her husband. When she is a princess, she needs to watch points even more carefully. She needs to maintain the respect that her position in that society expects of her --- no matter how modern the Danes may be.

It's a common sense issue.

I might add that there is no need to lower the level of vocabulary or language, as some have done while expressing their opinions.
  #145  
Old 05-02-2010, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rylt11 View Post
I'm not saying, or even suggesting, that Marie is trying to pick up men. I'm just stating the fact that a married woman needs to be careful about going out on the town without her husband. When she is a princess, she needs to watch points even more carefully. She needs to maintain the respect that her position in that society expects of her --- no matter how modern the Danes may be.

It's a common sense issue.

What makes you think she hasn't maintained the respect of the Danish people? If the Danes don't care that she's out at a club with some friends.....why should you? You're coming off as though Marie has personally offended your sensibilities. She hasn't done squat to you. Or to anyone else, for that matter.


Quote:
I'm just stating the fact that a married woman needs to be careful about going out on the town without her husband.

That's not a fact, that's your opinion. Apparently YOU think women are sluts or something because you keep bringing this issue back to "Marie needs to be careful around other men", as though she's liable to rip their pants off and have sex with them on the table at the nightclub. Just because other married princesses or even her own husband, couldn't control themselves when out with other people doesn't mean Marie is going to do the same thing. Believe it or not, and I'm sure this will come as a shock to you, but most women are capable of going out with other people, including guys, and not go to bed with them. My mom and dad go out with their friends a lot on the weekends, and yeah......they go out with mixed company. My parents haven't cheated on each other this whole time, and they've been married 38 years. The fact that neither of them are royalty doesn't mean anything. The point is, they have no need to sleep with anyone else, they are faithful to each other. So my mom can go out with friends from work and my dad can do the same and there's not even a scintilla of doubt in anyone's mind what is going on.


I'm not kidding -- it's not the 1890s anymore. You need to be more progressive in your thought.
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  #146  
Old 05-02-2010, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rylt11 View Post
I appreciate the "boys will be boys" quote. That is precisely my point.

Once the precedents are set, there is no turning back. Joaquim did his fair share of going about town, to bars, private parties, indeed he was even flirting in Australia at the bar where Frederik met Mary, all of this while married to Alexandra.

The marriage may well have had deep cracks in it it while he was out having a good time with friends without his wife, but these good times certainly did nothing to improve it.

I'm not saying, or even suggesting, that Marie is trying to pick up men. I'm just stating the fact that a married woman needs to be careful about going out on the town without her husband. When she is a princess, she needs to watch points even more carefully. She needs to maintain the respect that her position in that society expects of her --- no matter how modern the Danes may be.

It's a common sense issue.

I might add that there is no need to lower the level of vocabulary or language, as some have done while expressing their opinions.
This is fascinating. I guess this is very much an issue of perception and culture perhaps?

Both Joachim and Alexandra went to town when married. As far as I understand Alexandra met Martin as a part of a filming. Joachim met Marie the first time at a hunt, later on he contacted her. None of them met while in town.
As for Australia: Joachim was surrounded by his brother and other pretty close friends. He said something about Mary choosing his brother over him. That sounds like something I've said myself. I.e. a cultural thing.
Perhaps you would like to define "flirting"?

You wrote that a married woman should be careful when in town without her husband. I'm a married man, why should my wife be careful?
What or whom should she take into consideration?
Me? I trust my wife. We wouldn't have been married for thirteen years if I didn't. I trust her sound judgement and her friends to help her if need be.
Her family? They would, deservedly, knock me on the head if I wouldn't allow her to go out alone.
Our children? I don't think they will be teased at school because their mother is seen dancing with another man.
My family? They would, deservedly, knock me twice on the head if I wouldn't allow my wife to go out alone.
Our friends? - Soon to be ex-friends, because they would face the full wrath of Mrs. Muhler. - While I would be in hiding behind the couch, with the dog. No, I would back her up and in fact go ballistic if anyone questioned her moral.
Neighbours? They can gossip forever, I don't care. It would entirely be a matter between me and her.

My point is that I cannot prevent her from having an affair if she want's to. And if I didn't trust her I would be killing our marriage.
That doesn't mean I cannot become jealous. I can - fortunately. But that's an entirely different matter.

I believe people have a fling because they either deliberatly want to.
Their judgement is down, for whatever reason. Drunk for instance.
Or their marriage is on the rocks.
You cannot prevent that by forbidding your wife from going out.
Especially as there are so many other opportunities in the day to day life.

And how about me? Shouldn't I go out alone? I would be pretty mad if Mrs. Muhler forbade me to go out without her. And also hurt, doesn't she trust me?

I believe a similar thing applies to Joachim and la Marie, judging from the fact that he trust her well enough to let her go out on her own, and because he and I have a roughly similar cultural background or similar norms if you will.
  #147  
Old 05-02-2010, 01:14 PM
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I really don't see any problem with Marie enjoying a night out with some friends.
I also don't see a problem with her having a friendship with her hairstylist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rylt11
I'm just stating the fact that a married woman needs to be careful about going out on the town without her husband. When she is a princess, she needs to watch points even more carefully. She needs to maintain the respect that her position in that society expects of her --- no matter how modern the Danes may be.
I think this is quite an oldfashioned way of thinking. What's so horrible about a woman going out on the town without her husband? I know many who do so. I agree with Sister Morphine; we live in modern times.
Actually I don't think the Danes expect the Princess to stay at home with the Prince all the time or only leaving the house to go out to town with Joachim.
Imo there's no need to make mountains out of molehills.
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  #148  
Old 05-02-2010, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
She's a princess, but she's not in a damn glass cage. My word, it's the 21st century now. Either roll with the times or the times will roll over you.
I love everything that you said and especially agree with that comment above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rylt11 View Post

Once the precedents are set, there is no turning back. Joaquim did his fair share of going about town, to bars, private parties, indeed he was even flirting in Australia at the bar where Frederik met Mary, all of this while married to Alexandra.

The marriage may well have had deep cracks in it it while he was out having a good time with friends without his wife, but these good times certainly did nothing to improve it.

I'm not saying, or even suggesting, that Marie is trying to pick up men. I'm just stating the fact that a married woman needs to be careful about going out on the town without her husband. When she is a princess, she needs to watch points even more carefully. She needs to maintain the respect that her position in that society expects of her --- no matter how modern the Danes may be.

It's a common sense issue.
Joachim might've gone around the town, but so did Alexandra.
And you think because he did it when they were married, and they divorced, thats going to happen the Marie and Joachim?
You think the Danish society, wants her to stay in 24/7, come out wave, cut some ribbon, then go back to being a housewife?
Have you ever been to Denmark, do you know what there "society expects of her"? They probably don't even care that she went out without Joachim. She had a night off, the way she wanted to, Joachim had a night off doing what he wanted. I don't think you mean what society expects of her, i think you mean what you expect of her.
My common sense tells me, that Marie should be allowed to do what she likes, without her husband by her side 24/7.
Might i ask, do you also think she shouldn't be apart from her husband at official events? Or is it just when she wants to relax?


Oh and Marie has the same background that Alexandra had. IMO she has a better one.

To Muhler (sorry i forgot to quote your post when originally clicking)
Quote:
He said something about Mary choosing his brother over him. That sounds like something I've said myself. I.e. a cultural thing.
I have also read this myself, but from what i've been told personally, this was a joke, in a sense. Joachim rating himself better than his brother, and Mary should've chosen him etc.
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  #149  
Old 05-02-2010, 02:48 PM
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I certainly seem to be in the minority. Nonetheless, I truly believe that married women should not go nightclubbig with men who are not their husbands, or should inlcude the husband when going in a group of the opposite sex.

Men should have the courtesy and consideration to refrain from going out on the town with women when their wives aren't present.

Of course, no one is going to have sex in the middle of the nightclub as some woman claims. However, it is best to avoid problems than create them. Once the precedent is set, no matter how innocent it all starts out, there is no turning back, and, at some point, trouble can start. Granted, trouble can start anywhere, at any time.

I just don't think it's a good idea. Go to a dinner in mixed company, do something else, but going out drinking and dancing at night can lead to problems, no matter how innocent and benign it starts off.

Let's agree to disagree on this.
  #150  
Old 05-02-2010, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rylt11 View Post
I certainly seem to be in the minority. Nonetheless, I truly believe that married women should not go nightclubbig with men who are not their husbands, or should inlcude the husband when going in a group of the opposite sex.

Men should have the courtesy and consideration to refrain from going out on the town with women when their wives aren't present.

Of course, no one is going to have sex in the middle of the nightclub as some woman claims. However, it is best to avoid problems than create them. Once the precedent is set, no matter how innocent it all starts out, there is no turning back, and, at some point, trouble can start. Granted, trouble can start anywhere, at any time.

I just don't think it's a good idea. Go to a dinner in mixed company, do something else, but going out drinking and dancing at night can lead to problems, no matter how innocent and benign it starts off.

Let's agree to disagree on this.
That we certainly are.

I presume that includes business dinners?
Conferences?
Company parties/outings?
Stagnights/hennights as well?

That's an awful lot of social events you have to decline.

Statistically speaking the most likely place to start an affair is at or in connection with work. What would you suggest should be done about that?

I believe mutual trust is preferable to staying away from temptations.
If you do not trust yourself and your spouse then, believe me, it will kill your marriage, one way or another, just as surely as any affair.

But you are right, let's agree on disagreeing.
  #151  
Old 05-02-2010, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by rylt11 View Post
Nonetheless, I truly believe that married women should not go nightclubbig with men who are not their husbands, or should inlcude the husband when going in a group of the opposite sex.

Men should have the courtesy and consideration to refrain from going out on the town with women when their wives aren't present.
Why can't a woman who has a mixed group of friends go out with them without her husband? What is it you think will happen if a woman goes out with a bunch of friends, some of whom are men?

You are basically saying women cannot control their hormones and that if they are around other men without their husband, they are liable to sleep with them. Same goes for the husbands -- that if they are with a group of friends and their wife is not amongst them, they are liable to sleep with any woman who passes by.

I'm not even married and I'm insulted by that idea. Maybe you don't believe that a married person can be friends with the opposite sex and have no desire whatsoever to sleep with anyone OTHER than their spouse, but perhaps you need enlightening on that issue. Just because a person is married doesn't mean every time they choose to leave the house or go do something, their spouse must accompany them. People ARE allowed to socialize with friends and not have the Mr. or Mrs. hanging around too. Just because Marie went out without Joachim or Joachim might go out without Marie doesn't mean that either of them are screwing around or that they want to screw around or that they're thinking of screwing around or that they're doing anything that might lead someone ELSE to believe they're screwing around. The idea that going out to a club without their spouse can "lead to problems" is simply paranoid. It will only "lead to problems" if you're planning on having an affair. If you're not, and have no desire to have an affair, then there is zero problems.

Sweet sassy molassy.
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  #152  
Old 05-02-2010, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rylt11 View Post
I certainly seem to be in the minority. Nonetheless, I truly believe that married women should not go nightclubbig with men who are not their husbands, or should inlcude the husband when going in a group of the opposite sex.

Men should have the courtesy and consideration to refrain from going out on the town with women when their wives aren't present.

Of course, no one is going to have sex in the middle of the nightclub as some woman claims. However, it is best to avoid problems than create them. Once the precedent is set, no matter how innocent it all starts out, there is no turning back, and, at some point, trouble can start. Granted, trouble can start anywhere, at any time.

I just don't think it's a good idea. Go to a dinner in mixed company, do something else, but going out drinking and dancing at night can lead to problems, no matter how innocent and benign it starts off.

Let's agree to disagree on this.
In the minority, i think your the only one dear.
Once the precedent is set? So if Marie goes out, the precedent is sat that she MIGHT have an affair?
Thats paranoia and ridiculous.
Why should they not go out without each other?
What is the problem?
They are in a stable married loving relationship as far as we can tell, i'm sure no "Problems" are going to start.

I'm shocked that there are people that still think like this.
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  #153  
Old 05-02-2010, 04:06 PM
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Yeah, to me saying that once you go out with a group of friends, without your spouse, it's like the roller coaster is going off the tracks, doesn't speak highly to a person's ability to control themselves.

That's a poor indictment on the character of humanity, really.
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  #154  
Old 05-02-2010, 05:18 PM
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We've only seen photos of her entering the club with women and her gay hairdresser. Again, I don't think he's going to steal her away from Joachim. It's nothing but pure speculation that she was dancing with men and drinking.

In my opinion, I think it is a bit disrespectful of Marie to say that her behavior was unseemly. We have no evidence that it was. Wait until she goes out every night of the week and is photographed stumbling out of the clubs at 3 AM-then the unseemly remarks would be in order.
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  #155  
Old 05-02-2010, 06:01 PM
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However, men who tend to go out to clubs at night with their male friends, leaving their wives behind, can get used to the idea and sooner or later start forgetting that they are married. Women are less likely to do that,
Okay...
I didn't know that I, or for that matter my sex in general, is that primitive.


Would you believe me if I assure you that I'm unlikely to forget that I'm married? In nightclubs or elsewhere.
I am actually able to look at other women, without wanting to cheat on my wife. Okay, should Nigella Lawson dance around the bed in the buff I might for a brief second forget I'm married - until Mrs. Muhler clubbed her down.
I'm not sure which nightclubs you have visited, but it sounds like they were located in Sodoma and Gomorra.

There are temptations everywhere and the biggest temptations are not in nightclubs. They are in your daily life.

Well, gotta go. Need to eat a few bananas and swing in a branch or two before going to bed.
  #156  
Old 05-02-2010, 06:25 PM
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Does Marie get her royal perks 24/7? Yes, she does. She should also be mindful of what she is doing 24/7. She, and anyone else in a position which is regarded separate from the rest (this can include politicians as well, and we know about all of those recent behaviors).

The other point I'd like to make is that we really don't know whether the royal family approves or not. No one who makes comments has direct access to their remarks among themselves, so let's not assume that everything is fine.

If Marie and Joaquim, or Frederik and Mary, or Camilla and Charles, or whatever couple you'd like to mention have a solid marriage and all is well, that is fine.

I still think it is unbecoming for a princess to be seen going nightclubbing with members of the opposite sex without her spouse. That is the point I'm trying to make. It doesn't matter what the year is, it is an unbecoming thing to do.

It smacks of a child who is petulant and will do what she wants.
  #157  
Old 05-02-2010, 06:33 PM
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No, we don't know what the royal family thinks, but since we have seen Mary, Frederik, Joachim, and now Marie out with their friends at clubs and various venues, I think it is safe to assume that it is not against the rules/expectations of the Queen. If it was something that the Queen did not approve of, we can safely bet that the princesses/princes would not be doing it.

It may appear to be unseemly in your eyes, but to most of us here it is not (and apparently not unseemly to many Danes). All that matters is what Joachim, Marie, the royal family and the people of Denmark think. Since we continue to see the various family members out without their respective spouses, we can say that the royal family doesn't seem to mind; and if the Danes seemed to mind, we would see a backlash against the monarchy. This is a modern family, in a modern country, with a modern culture (thank goodness).
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  #158  
Old 05-03-2010, 04:35 AM
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I have deleted a few posts talking about how this can lead to an affair. Please lets not get into that since we have no proof what one thinks. Lets just stay on topic and discuss Marie's nighout and not what will/may happen.

Thank you
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Old 05-03-2010, 05:52 AM
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Have been away for a few days and now read this thread with interest. Rylt11, you are of course entitled to your view, but pheeewww are they ever out of sync with the reality and every day life of princess Marie! You talk about the Danes' respect for Marie and her behaviour in public. If she started behaving the way you seem to prefer married women to behave, I bet she would be losing our respect. The 30s/40s/50s are a long time away, we prefer to keep it that way.

You mention ex-princess Alexandra favourably compared to Marie. Have you checked out her social calendar for the years she was married to Joachim? She did not avoid mixed company either even when Joachim was not around. For which we thank her of course since we do not favour public figures which are completely out of tune with the society they live in.
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  #160  
Old 05-03-2010, 08:55 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , New Zealand
Posts: 688
I have read a few reports of the Queen and the Prince Consort going out to parties one without the other and private parties I might add where things can get out of hand. Yet, they are still happily married 40-odd years later. As for Joachim and Alexandra who said their marriage break up was in part due to them going out separately. The problems could have started in the home and them going out was to have a break from one another.
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