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  #321  
Old 08-27-2005, 01:34 PM
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"I totally agree with you that a career woman like Maxima or Mabel would have scared Fred to death."
What are you basing this on? How do you know this?

"I do not count cutting ribbons and going to museums as hard work. Hard work is working 8-5, cooking dinner, helping with the kids homework and putting them to bed. If all I had to do was wear a pretty outfit, show up for an event, talk to people, cut ribbons etc."
I believe its many different wiews on what hard work is, and I don't think you can compare a normal 8-5 job with the job as a crown princess, as they are way different.
Also, people only see 50 % of what they are doing. There's a lot of work to be done, out of the spotlight as well.
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  #322  
Old 08-27-2005, 02:02 PM
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Freddie has always had the reputation of not being very gifted in the academic field. He is also not known as a worker. I'm sure if he had his way, he would be nothing more than a soldier(SEAL), and that is perfectly fine. Evidently, he was a very good one. Everyone should be able to do something that they have a passion for and are good at.


Yes, there is work done behind the scenes, but if Mary was doing her work behind the scenes, she would not just follow a museum director around and say "Ja ,Ja, Ja" and not be able to really converse with the staff. Then she leaves and goes back to the palace.(it is on video) Yes, that is hard work that I would take any day.

Obviously we do not agree, but I'm not going to argue. You obviously love Mary and can't find fault at all. A mature individual can criticize those that they even admire as everyone has good and bad traits.(even me) For example, I like Letizia but do have a problem with the fact that since she only had a civil marriage she was still allowed to marry Felipe.(it's as if she had never married) To me, divorce is divorce. If she had been married in church, her marriage to Felipe would never have taken place. I find this to be completely hipocritical. However, I still respect and admire her for the career that she was able to achieve.
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  #323  
Old 08-27-2005, 02:08 PM
Vicomtesse's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasl
This is only my view on the matter (and it might seem very strange to some people) but I've always thought that you must have more proof and a stronger reason before you can say or do something negative as opposed to when you say or do something positive.

By way of example (and this is not a perfect analaogy I know, but it shows the different thresholds that need to be satisfied for different things), in criminal cases, one must show that the accused is guilty beyond reasonable doubt (if there is reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the person, then person is not guilty) whereas in civil cases (non-payment of debts etc) it's only on the balance of probabilities (a person may be found guilty even if there is some doubt as to their guilt, as long as the evidence weighed together tend to indicate that theperson is guilty rather than innocent) . In the same way, I think you must have more proof to back up your argument before you can say "that person is manipulative" before a person can say "that person is warm and caring". Negative and positive views are (to me anyway) not the same thing (one is hurtful and one is supportive), and this necessitates the different treatment.

So applying the above to drawing conclusions about a person based on pictures, I would say that it's okay to draw positive impressions and say something positive about a person based on pictures, but not draw highly personal and negative views about a person based on how a person appears in photos/ clips.
Isn't this rather HYPOCRITICAL???
The burden of proof is on both sides. If you LIKE Mary or think that she's a warm and caring person then SHOW PICTURES AS EXAMPLES. Vice versa if you DON'T LIKE Mary then SHOW PICTURES AS EXAMPLES.
Why should those who have negative opinons or feelings towards an individual HAVE TO SHOW PROOF of their feelings but those who have positive feelings DO NOT???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasl

Man we're all going around in circles! :p Personally, I can't understand how some people can be bothered to waste their precious time cultivating these negative thoughts about someone that, for the most part, don't have any impact on their real life.
But don't you keep PARTICIPATING in the same circular discussion???
So YOU like Mary that is okay. Nobody says that this isn't okay.
But there are also OTHERS who DO NOT LIKE MARY and that is okay too. They should be able to say how they feel too if there are others gushing about Mary. Why should only those gushing about Mary be allowed to have their say?
Whereas those who dare to express a single negative word about Mary are said to be running around in circles or being hurtful???
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  #324  
Old 08-27-2005, 02:12 PM
Aristocracy
 
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No kidding, mature individuals should be able to have a discussion where both sides are respected. Everything we say is an opinion and nothing more. Most of us will never meet royals and it is not as if they care what we really think anyway.
Have a good day everyone!:)
  #325  
Old 08-27-2005, 03:50 PM
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I don't think we have to get upset either but all caps and bold are considered shouting on the Internet. Its too aggressive. :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by paloma
Her work history would not have come into play if she had not been following in the footsteps of Princess Alexandra who had a strong career in finance and who learned Danish in miraculous speed. Whether that is fair or not, is not the issue.
paloma, you bring up a lot of good points but if I want to judge a person, fair is an issue, regardless of what everybody else thinks. Its interesting that you bring up Alexandra - yes, she had an amazing career before her marriage but the marriage didn't last. One could almost say that as a driven career woman she was bored with the limited choices a princess has. I can sympathize with that but marriages that don't work hardly help the monarchy.

I basically want Fred and Mary to succeed in their marriage because I believe in the monarchy and he seems like a nice guy. Overall I think he made a good choice given his own temperament and responsibilities. I was a little hesitant about his bringing a commoner wife from overseas because I thought that was too much for a woman to handle at one time. New language, new country, new husband, new in-laws, being royal, being famous.

I wonder about the influence the cultural differences had on the marriage of Alexandra and Joachim. The Danes speak English so well and they seem so pleasant that you could almost mistake them for Americans or Brits but I think there is a lot that goes on under the surface there that a foreigner may not pick up on readily.

But on the whole I think the crown prince couple are doing pretty well. Fred at least looks more relaxed, like he is more sure of himself and that's a good thing.
  #326  
Old 08-27-2005, 03:54 PM
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You are correct, he definitely seems to have found someone who fits his temperament. I do hope that this marriage works as one failed marriage in the Danish royal family is enough.
  #327  
Old 08-27-2005, 04:16 PM
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yeah, and I think you're right, paloma, I work in HR too and job hopping is not looked on too favorably.

I don't think Fred and Mary would do well in a highly competitive business world which makes them very similar to a lot of Rockefellers, Vanderbilts etc. who inherited their wealth and position.
  #328  
Old 08-27-2005, 04:17 PM
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by paloma

Yes, there is work done behind the scenes, but if Mary was doing her work behind the scenes, she would not just follow a museum director around and say "Ja ,Ja, Ja" and not be able to really converse with the staff. Then she leaves and goes back to the palace.(it is on video) Yes, that is hard work that I would take any day.
I think Mary's museum visit must have lasted longer than the 2 minutes of the Video. I also heard Mary speaking Danish.

Is it fair to criticise Mary's hard work simply based on the 2 minutes video since the video couldn't possibly be of the whole Mary's museum visit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  #329  
Old 08-27-2005, 04:22 PM
Thi Thi is offline
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by paloma

As for Mary, I don't buy the fact that she did not know that Fred was a prince. I think that she had every intention of marrying well, as I don't think that WORK is a strong suit of hers. Her resume is rather thin for someone her age. Her social climbing is just way to obvious to me. Mette-Marit is not educated and does not have a strong work history, but she never took a deportment class and never acted or pretended to be something she was not. JMO. I think that Mary had no direction and Fred provided an out to real world responsibilities: rent, long term job etc. Yes, she has to work now by going to engagements and cutting ribbons etc. but with all of the princess perks, she does not mind!:)
I was wondering what do you mean she has "every intention of marrying well" ? I just want you to clarify that so that I dont jump to conclusion to what you mean. Also don't we all want to marry well? I dont think anyone here can honestly say dont... but hey I can be wrong..... and also, why do you think she has no direction in life? (ps if you dont want to answer this, it is fine) :)
Have a nice day
  #330  
Old 08-27-2005, 04:27 PM
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Yes, her visit lasted more than two minutes and your opinion is different than mine and still respected and appreciated here!:)
Many of us don't take this stuff to seriously. It is an escape from the mundane issues and tasks that we have to face on a daily basis.

I think that there are many people who would take Mary more seriously if she were not what seems to be fashion and publicity obssessed. They have marketed her to be a model instead of a hard working wife of a crown prince. She is seen as fluff by many. They think that the publicity is good for marketing the Danish monarchy. However, beware, because with good pr comes bad pr and it does come at sometime.

I like Letizia and Maxima, but Mathilde of Belgium is everything that a crown princess should be....educated, dutiful and most of all, DISCREET!
  #331  
Old 08-27-2005, 04:28 PM
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"Obviously we do not agree, but I'm not going to argue. You obviously love Mary and can't find fault at all. A mature individual can criticize those that they even admire as everyone has good and bad traits."

Paloma:
Thank you for your answer.
That's Ok, I don't want to argue either! I like Mary, but of course I see her faults, she's not perfect, no one is- she's a very normal woman with a very special role.
Ava.
  #332  
Old 08-27-2005, 04:34 PM
Thi Thi is offline
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Mary is not discreet??
  #333  
Old 08-27-2005, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
I don't believe that she didn't know he was a prince either but I don't hold it against her for wanting to marry well. If she had been a prince-hunter, she would have hardly stayed in Australia. For her social climbing to be obvious to me, she would have had to have done some social climbing in Australia before she met the CP and I haven't heard of anything.

She may have lacked direction before she met Fred but it looks like he lacked some direction too. Not all women are cut out to be high powered career woman and I think someone like that would have scared Fred away anyway.

In that case, if someone lacks direction and marriage can give them a direction and sense of purpose I'm all for it. If he happens to be a crown prince and they can make the marriage work, so much the better.

In fact I'm better impressed that Mary has tried to take a deportment class and learned the ropes of the job. Although here the membership is very supportive of Mette-Marit and Haakon (and I definitely like Haakon) there are so many reports in Norway that the monarchy won't outlast Harald because of his children's choices of spouses. I'm glad Mary is taking the job seriously.
Just a small point - she only ever said that she didn't know he was a prince within 30 minutes of meeting him... and then after half an hour, she did know because one of her friends told her. So the "not knowing he wa a prince" should only be applied to this first 30 minutes. You will also note that Beatrice Tarnawski (the so called friend who, I must admit, was the reason for Fred meeting Mary) didn't even know when she met the royals that evening that they were royals, let alone the acquaintances who decided to come along at the last minute (Mary's flat mate is was a friend of Beatrice's).

And seriously, who could you blame Mary for not knowing he was a prince in the first 30 minutes? Everything was just so exciting and there was this palpable buzz during the Sydney Olypmics - you had no idea if the person in front of you was an athlete, a diplomat etc.

Again about Mary not wanting to work - apart from the time she spent overseas, she has always worked since her graduation. Perhaps people are against her changing jobs (and this is not the same as not having a work ethic, because as I've said before, she has always worked), but she has always said that she was a bit restless after her mother's death. Who could blame her? She went back to work too quickly after her mother's death, realised she just couldn't let her dreams pass her by, and went backpacking. I think though that she was still a bit restless (but note, there was never a time when she was not working), and then Fred came along... :)
  #334  
Old 08-27-2005, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasl
And seriously, who could you blame Mary for not knowing he was a prince in the first 30 minutes?
No I don't blame her - I think its a non issue. Same with the jobhopping. In certain cases it looks bad but I don't think its relevant in Mary's case because she and Fred seem well suited and she's trying hard.
  #335  
Old 08-27-2005, 05:07 PM
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I never said that Mary was not discreet. I was referring to HRH Mathilde of Belgium.
  #336  
Old 08-27-2005, 07:49 PM
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A few more photos from this event from newscom:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandDuchess
Today Crown Princess Mary attended the special school, the Geelsgård school's, 50th jubilee celebrations. Pictures from Polfoto.
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  #337  
Old 08-27-2005, 10:10 PM
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Mary works a lot...where is Frederik?
  #338  
Old 08-27-2005, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anita
I don't agree . It is not because you're reserved that you look necessarily not nice . Princess Letizia is the perfect example for that : she looks as reserved as Mary BUT, to me, she DOES look nice and has some kindness in her face's expressions . Whereas Mary does not have this kindness . But, again, it's only MY impressions .:)

I wasn't saying that her looking reserved means that you look necessarily not nice. If we are going by facial expressions then, they too can be misleading. As a poster pointed out, people can look one way, but can feel another way. Just because someone looks a certain way does not determine their character, or necessarily reflect the way they may be feeling. I can't think of how many times some people at some point not approached me because they looked at me, and assumed that I was mean, or angry when in fact, most of the time, it was the opposite. Just because I don't smile alot, people automatically assumed the worst. Appearances, as we know, can be deceiving. Impressions can be wrong. So, if we are going by photos, not necessarily knowing her personally, I'm going to stick with what I believe...that is Mary just as any other CP is as nice and warm as she can possibly be. However, I respect your opinion, but I tend to disagree.:)
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  #339  
Old 08-27-2005, 11:42 PM
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Mary hasn't done anything bad has she? To make a few people think she is cold and doesnt love her husband, she must have done something really out there. Or maybe its just people who wish it was them instead of Mary. :)

I would love to see some of Mary's critics take over her position for a while and see how they do it, and see how they would deal with people determining who they are based on their photos. And also, if they think they know how its done, go and show her how to do it. I wonder what they will say then?

I dont mean to be rude but im sick of people talking about people who they dont even know and saying they should be like this or like that, when they have never even been in her position! How can people tell her shes doing it wrong etc when they dont know what its like to be in her postion.

I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but surely there is a limit. For example, if i dont like Letizia (which whom i do actually like) i wont go to her message board and write about her faults. Its just basic respect
  #340  
Old 08-28-2005, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda Hsu
I think Mary's museum visit must have lasted longer than the 2 minutes of the Video. I also heard Mary speaking Danish.

Is it fair to criticise Mary's hard work simply based on the 2 minutes video since the video couldn't possibly be of the whole Mary's museum visit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Would it be more fair to praise her with the same infos?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paloma
No kidding, mature individuals should be able to have a discussion where both sides are respected. Everything we say is an opinion and nothing more. Most of us will never meet royals and it is not as if they care what we really think anyway.
Have a good day everyone!:)
Tut tut tut... this is apparently the «my way or the highway» tread. Well not «my way» because I did the forbidden thing and sinfully explained why some might not see this crown princess as the very best thing to happen to earth since sliced bread. I should probably write that I regret from the bottom of my heart having writing that comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Australian
Mary hasn't done anything bad has she? To make a few people think she is cold and doesnt love her husband, she must have done something really out there. Or maybe its just people who wish it was them instead of Mary. :)
No, I never wished it was me instead of Mary. My answer might differ if Sarah remarries Andrew though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Australian
I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but surely there is a limit. For example, if i dont like Letizia (which whom i do actually like) i wont go to her message board and write about her faults. Its just basic respect
From where I'm from, basic respect includes hearing or reading an opinion different than mine without fuming or arguing 'til death.
This last outburst started when someone innocently answered a direct question demanding whether or not people who didn't like the crown princess in the beginning of her relationship had now changed their mind and why. They were viciously attacked by some fans. Basic respect wouldn't include vicious attack, at least where I'm from.

Are we gonna have fun or not the next time she shows up at a fashion show HI HA!
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