The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Non-Reigning Houses > The Imperial Family of Brazil

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1  
Old 01-22-2008, 03:28 PM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 13,882
Who is the Head of the Brazilian Imperial Family?

Two branches of the Brazilian Imperial family are claiming to be the rightfull heirs of the last Emperors of Brazil, use this thread to discuss their claims. Please be respectfull of each others opinions.
__________________

__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-23-2008, 06:12 AM
Lecen's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Denver, United States
Posts: 33
It´s a fact that Dom Pedro Gastão (Don Peter Gaston) had always denied that his father´s renounce to his rights to the brazilian imperial throne were invalid and thus, he was the rightful claimant.

Truth or not, his children and the other members of his branch (the so called "Petrópolis branch") have declared themselves republicans.

You can find the source in here (in spanish): http://www.publico.es/internacional/35312

translated a few lines:

(In spanish) Francisco –51 años, economista, tatuaje de la rosa de los vientos en el brazo– es el prototipo de príncipe republicano. Sin trono. Y orgulloso de ello.

(in english) Francisco - 51 years, economist, with a tatoo of the "rosa dos ventos" (rose of winds) in his arm - it´s a prototype of a republican prince. Without a throne, but proud of this fact.

(Francisco is a son of Pedro Gastão who died some weeks ago and is a grandson of the prince whou renounced his position.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

(In spanish) Pero cuando a Francisco se le pregunta por la monarquía, lo tiene claro: “Yo soy republicano. La monarquía en Brasil no funcionaría”.

(In english) And when Francisco´s asked about monarchy, the answer is clear: "I am a republican. The monarchy in Brazil wouldn´t work."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

(In spanish) De hecho, el príncipe-sin-trono-pero-con-cervecería-y-periódico, pertenece al Ramo de Petrópolis, como son conocidos los descendientes de Pedro de Alcântara de Orleáns y Bragança (1875–1940). Un ramo progresista y republicano.

(In english) It´s true, the prince-without-a-throne-but-with-a-brewery-and-news-magazine, belongs to the Petrópolis branch, as the descendents of Pedro de Alcântara of Olréans and Braganza (1875-1940) are known. A republican and progressist branch.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(In spanish) Pedro renunció a los derechos dinásticos en 1908 para casarse con la checa Isabel de Dobrzenicz. Y abrió el camino de la saga de los príncipes sin trono: bodas con plebeyos.

(In English) Pedro renounced his dynastic rights in 1908 so that he could marry the czech Elizabeth Dobrzenicz. And he opened the way to the saga of princes without a throne: marriages with commoners.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

(In spanish) “Creo que somos republicanos porque hay que adaptarse a la realidad. Además, somos respetados porque somos una família trabajadora”, asegura a Público Pedro Carlos de Orléans e Bragança, primogénito del ramo de Petrópolis.

(In english) "I believe that we are republicans because we need to adapt ourselves to reality. Besides, we´re respected because we are a family that works a lot" as Pedro Carlos of Orléans and Braganza, eldest of the Petrópolis branch openly assures.

(Pedro Carlos is the oldest son and "heir"of Pedro Gastão)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

(In spanish) Hubo presiones y boicot general. No pudimos hacer una campaña decente. Seguimos creyendo que la Monarquía puede ejercer un papel de moderador en la sociedad”, asegura a Público Antônio João de Orleáns e Bragança, del conservador ramo de Vassouras.

(In english) There was a pression and general boycotting. We couldnt´make a decent campaign. But we still believe the Monarchy could moderate the society", openly assures Dom Antonio João of Orléans and Braganza. from the conservative Vassouras branch.

My comment: Dom Antonio is the brother and second in the line of succession to Dom Luiz, just after his brother Dom Bertrand.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

(In spanish) La diferencia con el aperturista ramo de Petrópolis es patente. “Si hoy se repitiese el plebiscito, nuestra postura sería la misma, la republicana”, afirma Pedro de Orleáns y Brangança.

(In english) The differency between the Petrópolis and Vassouras branches are clear. "If there was another plebiscit again, our posture would be the same, that is, republican", as Pedro Carlos of Orléans and Braganza assures.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-23-2008, 04:10 PM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 13,882
Thanks for these quotes. Lecen. But does it matter for their claim that they are republican? Archduke Otto renounced his rights to the Austrian throne officially I believe but he is still egarded as head of the Austrian Imperial family (though the move caused much chagrin among his brothers). And are ALL of the petropolis branch 'republican'? I believe Manuel of Orleans-Braganca is more sympathetic to his heritage for example.

But untill they 'officially' renounce their rights to the throne, wouldn't they be the head of the Imperial House, dispite their actions? Note that in this reasoning I am already presuming that the marriage to Countess Elisabeth Dobrensky was valid under the houselaws of the Brazilian Imperial family.
__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-24-2008, 03:16 PM
Lecen's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Denver, United States
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Thanks for these quotes. Lecen. But does it matter for their claim that they are republican? Archduke Otto renounced his rights to the Austrian throne officially I believe but he is still egarded as head of the Austrian Imperial family (though the move caused much chagrin among his brothers). And are ALL of the petropolis branch 'republican'? I believe Manuel of Orleans-Braganca is more sympathetic to his heritage for example.

But untill they 'officially' renounce their rights to the throne, wouldn't they be the head of the Imperial House, dispite their actions? Note that in this reasoning I am already presuming that the marriage to Countess Elisabeth Dobrensky was valid under the houselaws of the Brazilian Imperial family.
Hello Marengo!

To understand the "dynastic dispute" in Brazil someone must first understand the history of the brazilian Imperial Family after the end of the monarchy.


1908-1922 The final years of Exile

In 1908, after years of engagement, Dom Pedro (Don Peter), eldest son and heir of Isabel (Izabella) decided to marry Countess Elisabeth Dobrensky. His mother told him that he could marry her, but he would have to renounce his position as a brazilian prince.

He did so.

So, his brother, the second son of Izabella, Dom Luís (Don Louis), became the heir, and received the title "Prince Imperial" (All the others are called just "Prince"), and also married with a princess of Bourbon-Two Sicilies.

After their marriage, Don Peter married with Countess Elisabeth Dobrensky.

The first Izabella´s grandson to born was Dom Pedro Henrique (Don Peter Henry), son of Don Louis, and he was called "Prince of Great-Pará" (the title that the son of the heir of the Emperor had the right to receive).

Four years later, Dom Pedro Gastão (Don Peter Gaston), eldest male son of Don Peter, who renounced, was born.

Things started to go bad when both Don Louis and his younger brother enlisted themselves to go fight for Great Britain in World War I. Don Louis returned home with a illness who would only get worse and worse and finally took his life in 1920. His younger brother died from a plane crash in 1918.

In 1921, Izabella died. So, Don Peter Henry, son of Don Louis became, at age 12, Head of the Imperial House of Brazil and de jure Emperor as "Dom Pedro III". His grandfather, the old Gaston, count d´Eu, took him to Brazil in 1920 (the republican government allowed the princes to returned, at last) so that the brazilian could meet the heir to the throne (Izabella didn´t go because she was already to sick) and returned there in 1922, so that the brazilians could meet their new "Emperor", but he died in the middle of the voyage.

1922-1945 - Not yet in Brazil

Don Peter Henry returned to France and there he grew up and lived with his two siblings and his mother, who was never attached to Brazil because she never lived there. But what she really wanted, was to make sure that he could marry with a princess and living in Europe, it would be easier.

Meanwhile, Don Peter, eldest son of Izabella and only son that still was alive, moved to Brazil with his family.

From 1922 to 1940, when he died, he always made it clear that it was his nephew, not him, the heir to the throne.

But to brazilian monarchists, it was just to hard to wait for an emperor that would never return (Since 1889 that no heir to the imperial throne returned to Brazil), but even so, they kept their loyalty to Don Peter Henry, a prince they never met.

Don Peter grew and later married Elizabeth, german princess of Bavaria, and had four children: Don Louis, Don Eudes, Don Bertrand and Izabella. When he finally had money to move to Brazil, in 1939, II Wolrd War started and he was kept in France until 1945, when he finally moved to Brazil.

But since 1940, Don Peter Gaston, son of Don Peter, was claiming the throne, saying that his father renounce was invalid.

Few monarchists supported him and none tried to bring back the monarchy for real. Don Peter Gaston, who lived in Brazil and had the money to do so (he owned palaces in Brazil and the Palace of Eu in France) never done anything to brinck back the monarchy too, but would only keep claiming the title.

1945-1981 The lost years

When Don Peter Heny moved to Brazil, all monarchist supported him, but he didn´t have any money, and soon went to live in a distant brazilian state, in the country, too far from cities. And he himself never made any real move to support or to try to bring back monarchy.

Meanwhile, his cousin, Don Peter Gaston, although he didnt´spend money or tried to create or support any monarchist movement, lived in palaces and appeared in countless parties, as a true bon vivant. And he kept claiming the throne.

1981-1993 More lost years

When Don Peter Henry died in 1981, his son, the childless and ultra-conservative, Don Louis became the Head of the Imperial Family, and his brother and also childless Don Bertrand, became his heir.

They have some... views, that do not please most of people whom met them. They hate leftists, they prefer to not talk to divorced couples and homossexuals and dont like very much of anyone who has another religion if not catholicism, etc...

Although Don peter Gaston kept claiming the throne, he didn´t get any real support, but as he lived in Petrópolis ("The Imperial City") and lived in a palace and was always appearing in parties, magazines, TV, etc., for many brazilians who didn´t know very much about monarchy, he was a prince. Meanwhile, the strong opposition to Don Louis and Don Bertrand woulny grow more and more.

Everything changed when occured a plebiscit in Brazil to choose between republic and monarchy. It was a battle that monarchist could never win, because they had no money and no support, and republican would keep telling awful lies, like "if monarchy returns, slavery will also return!", or "if monarchy returns, the king can send anyone he wants to death".

And to make things worse, Don Louis and Don Bertrand, including his family, were not allowed to promote monarchy in TV, only Don Peter Gaston and his family.

1993- Today - A New Age

After the plebiscit, new monarchists groups appeared averywhere in Brazil. All suppoprted and still supports Don Louis (mostly, because his brother, Don Antony, who is married with a princess of Ligne and has children of their own does not share his older brothers view).

Every year at least two-three monarchyst events occurs. Sometimes in Rio de Janeiro, others in São Paulo, or even in Florianópólis. This year, it will happen in Rio, São Paulo, Salvador, Recife and Alagoas (Brazil is commemorating 200 years of the portuguese Royal Family travel to that country and the monarchists are taking advantage of that fact).

Don Peter Gaston died last year. He was already living for quite a few years in Spain. All his son and daughters and grandchildren had made it clear that they didn´t care about monarchy. He has a nephew, called "Dom Joãozinho" (Little Don John), that very few monarchists support. But he himself is only a nephew and his son doesn´t care about monarchy either. Although Dom Joãozinho had sometimes made it clear that he wanted to become an Emperor, he doens´t has any group supporting him and he doens´t do anything to bring monarchy back (he, like his uncle, it´s one those kind of princes that when asked, they made it clear that they want to be Emperor, but doing something by themselves... never!).

So, what every brazilian monarchist is wating, sadly, is the day when Don Antony becomes the head of the brazilian Imperial House and his oldest son, Don Peter Louis, becomes his heir.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-08-2008, 05:08 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil
Posts: 15
There are no house rules regarding marriage. There is nothing in the Brasilian Constitution regarding marriage or renuciation. Well there is something. They must be Roman Catholics. Also, the ruling monarch must approve marriage of heirs. However, there is Nothing about the above mentioned renuciation or general marriages of princes.

All marriages of d'Orleans e Braganca princes are valid, regardless of family preference to the contrary, unless they themselves are not Catholic's. Then they are out of the running. This is in the Constitution.

It was Princess Isabel who pushed equal marriage on the family. She had no base for this. Further, this was a European concept and should not be leveled on a American/Brasilian Monarchy.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-08-2008, 06:07 PM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 13,882
Didn't Prince Pedro de Alcantara claim that his mother was highly influenced by an Austrian Archduchess (of the Teschen branch, I forgot her name) in this matter as the Archduchess had hopes that Dom Pedro would marry her daughter and when he preferred a Polish Countess she was looking for a way to get back on him?
__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-08-2008, 07:46 PM
Regina's Avatar
Serene Highness
TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 1,657
I thought the Head of Brazil Imperial Family was Dom Luiz de Orleans e Bragança.

He is the eldest of the twelve children of H.I.R.H. Prince D. Pedro Henrique, Head of the Imperial House of Brazil and of H.R.H. Princess Maria of Bavaria.

Let's see: by his paternal family, the Prince descends directly from the Emperors of Brazil, from the Kings of Portugal (House of Bragança) and from the Kings of France (Houses of Orleans and Bourbon).
By his maternal family, the Prince is a descendant from the Kings of Bavaria(House of Wittelsbach). I think Dom Luiz's mother, Princess Maria, is still alive. She is known as the Princess Mother of Brazil.

As D. Luiz is single, the next in the Line of Succession to the Throne is his brother, Prince D. Bertrand, who is unmarried too. D. Antonio Joãois the third in the Line. This one is married since 1981, to Princess Christine of Ligne (from a Belgian Princely Family).

Petrópolis, (Rio de Janeiro), is still under the "crown" of D. Pedro I descendants. On every imobiliary transaction, it is charged a tax of 2.5% of the final value. This tax is called "Laudêmio" and it reverts to the Orleans e Bragança Family. This happens because the lands that nowadays compose the city belonged to D. Pedro. The lands were donated with the condition that his descendants would get this financial benefit.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-09-2008, 01:37 PM
Lecen's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Denver, United States
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by imperiale View Post
There are no house rules regarding marriage. There is nothing in the Brasilian Constitution regarding marriage or renuciation. Well there is something. They must be Roman Catholics. Also, the ruling monarch must approve marriage of heirs. However, there is Nothing about the above mentioned renuciation or general marriages of princes.

All marriages of d'Orleans e Braganca princes are valid, regardless of family preference to the contrary, unless they themselves are not Catholic's. Then they are out of the running. This is in the Constitution.

It was Princess Isabel who pushed equal marriage on the family. She had no base for this. Further, this was a European concept and should not be leveled on a American/Brasilian Monarchy.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.

-------------------- About Petrópolis Branch -----------------------------

I would like to let it clear to everyone that the reason that the Petrópolis branch it´s not dynastic it is only because they´re were born as commoners. Just that.

I explain.

Dom Pedro de Alcântara, eldest son of princess Isabella (then, Empress de jure of Brazil) married to Elizabeth when he was NOT a prince anymore.

He renounced before his marriage. His children were not born from a morganatic marriage.

I´ll make it even more simple: let´s say that Dom Pedro de Alcântara had not married Elizabeth in 1909. For some reason, they broke up. And then in 1910 he married a Habsburg princess.

Even then, his children wouldn´t be brazilian princes, because his father wasn´t one.

--------------------------- About dynastic marriage ----------------------

It´s true that in the brazilian constitution of 1824 there are no articles talking about dynastc marriage. But I will repeat once more: Dom Pedro marriage to Elizabeth was NOT a morganatic one. He renounced his rights as a prince BEFORE his marriage.

But, even son, the brazilian Imperial House was born out of the union between the House of Braganza and the House of Habsburg, both europeans. So, the brazilain Imperial House´s customs are product of both these european´s houses.

This is why Dom Pedro I was not allowed, even knowing that he was an Emperor, to marry his lover, Domitila de Castro, the Marquiss of Santos. He went so far as to search for a royal ancestral in his lover´s genealogy but he didnt´find any. That´s why he married Amelia of Leuchtenberg, who was an imperial french princess by her father´s side and a bavarian royal princess by her mother´s side.

------------------------ About Dom Luiz -------------------------------

Both the Braganzas and the Orleans are in male line part of the Capetian Dynast. So, Dom Luiz is a descendent of the Braganzas, Habsburgs, Bourbons, Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Saxony, Savoy, Komnenos, Oldemburg, Hannover, Plantagenet, etc, etc....
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-11-2008, 08:17 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil
Posts: 15
Brasilian Emperor

I find this interesting and obviously written by someone familar with his subject.

I would think that the reason Dom Pedro I could not marry Domitila was she was considered an adventuress and totally disliked by the Brasilians. It had nothing really to do with her lack of royal blood.

It is a little deceptive to say that Dom Pedro renounced his rights as a prince. He never said, nor did anyone at the time not consider him, a prince. He was the son of imperial blood far less diluted than those today.

Yes, the prince who lives in Sao Paulo, Dom Luiz, is a descendent of many great European houses. What this has to do with a qualification to be an Brasilian Emperor is beyond me! This is Brasil on the American continent. We have no need for foreign conventions. This prince has never worked a day in his life. What kind of example is this to all those Brasilians who work so hard to get by. Why does he not live in Rio de Janeiro or Petropolis which are traditional habitats of Brasilian imperials?

The real point, I think, is that if the Brasilians ever vote for the restoration of constitutional monarchy (and I think they should) they will also choose for themselves who this emperor is to be. They will not be impressed by bloodlines or by those who do not labor in the field as they have to do. I suspect they will choose someone far more earthy than some of the present candidates.

This the 21st Century. As many of the senior princes as possible should gather and declare that all princely marriages should be, as they are, considered valid so long as they follow the Roman Catholic rules for a valid marriage. Even if they do not do so changes nothing. It has only been a choice on the part of some princes to marry equally. How can anyone say that if a Brasilian prince marries a Brasilian "commoner" he can not be a Brasilian Emperor. I do not think the Brasilian people feel this way. In fact I bet if they really understood this they would be out raged.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-11-2008, 08:30 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil
Posts: 15
I always rely on the Brasilian Imperial Constitution for my research and views. Where is this "Official and Valid" (my quotation marks) house rules. I think they do not exist except in wishful minds. Perhaps I am wrong?!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-12-2008, 09:06 AM
Regina's Avatar
Serene Highness
TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 1,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by imperiale View Post
This prince has never worked a day in his life. What kind of example is this to all those Brasilians who work so hard to get by. Why does he not live in Rio de Janeiro or Petropolis which are traditional habitats of Brasilian imperials?
A Crown Prince is not elected. It doesnt matter if he has a career or if he cares for work or not. He can be a lazy person and he still is the Crown Prince. That's the reason I am not 100% a monarchy supporter. I couldnt get over the fact that "my" Crown Prince was a lazy and stupid person, while his brother (or cousin, etc) was a smart, educated and talented one. But if a country chooses to keep a monarchy, then they have to accept the risk.

Quote:
The real point, I think, is that if the Brasilians ever vote for the restoration of constitutional monarchy (and I think they should) they will also choose for themselves who this emperor is to be. They will not be impressed by bloodlines or by those who do not labor in the field as they have to do. I suspect they will choose someone far more earthy than some of the present candidates.
Well, but then what's the point of a monarchy in Brazil? If people want an elected emperor then a monarchy should not be restored, imo. The elected emperor could be a very earthy man, but his son could be completely different. Would the people want to choose his heir too?
Your post is very interesting, imperiale. Everything related with Brazil, interests me. Tell me, why do you think Brazilians are not interested on bloodlines? Here in Portugal, people love family genealogy and family trees. I thought Brazilians were like that too.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-12-2008, 09:35 AM
Lecen's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Denver, United States
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by imperiale View Post
I find this interesting and obviously written by someone familar with his subject.
Yes. You´re right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imperiale View Post
I would think that the reason Dom Pedro I could not marry Domitila was she was considered an adventuress and totally disliked by the Brasilians. It had nothing really to do with her lack of royal blood.
"Many were impressed in the court by that time because some were after anykind of proofs of royal ancestry of Domitila de Castro and any connection of her with Inês de Castro (famous wife of Dom Pedro I, King of Portugal) and she started using Inês´s coat of arms. The situation bothered Metternich, that in march 26th of 1837 wrote to Mareschal:

It´s inadmissible that the emperor may marry with ms. Santos"


[...]

"Dom Pedro´s decision of searching in european´s courts a new wife in 1827, when even the austrian embassador thought that Domitila would become the new empress, it took a severe blow to their relationship (Dom Pedro and Domitila)"

Source: Lustosa, Isabel - D. Pedro I, 2007, Companhia das Letras

Quote:
Originally Posted by imperiale View Post
It is a little deceptive to say that Dom Pedro renounced his rights as a prince. He never said, nor did anyone at the time not consider him, a prince. He was the son of imperial blood far less diluted than those today.
Eu o Principe Dom Pedro de Alcantara Luiz Philippe Maria Gastão Miguel Gabriel Raphael Gonzaga de Orleans e Bragança, tendo maduramente reflectido, resolvi renunciar ao direito que pela Constituição do Imperio do Brazil promulgada a 25 de Março de 1824 me compete à Corôa do mesmo Paiz. Declaro pois que por minha muito livre e espontanea vontade d'elle desisto pela presente e renuncio, não só por mim, como por todos e cada um dos meus descendentes, a todo e qualquer direito que a dita Constituição nos confere á Corôa e Throno Brazileiros, o qual passará ás linhas que se seguirem á minha conforme a ordem de successão estabelecida pelo Art. 117. Perante Deus prometto por mim e meus descendentes manter a presente declaração.

Cannes 30 de Outubro de 1908

assinado: Pedro de Alcântara de Orleans e Bragança


"I renounced my rights for myself and all my descendents to the brazilian imperial throne"

Could he be more clear than that?

I don´t know if you know, but Don Juan Carlos I, king os Spain has older uncles which renounced their places as spanish princes. The same happened with the older uncles of Dom Duarte, duke of Braganza and pretender to the defunct portuguese throne.

And neither are they, or are their children princes. So, please. stop.

The only exception that I know it happened with Edward VIII of UK. He should have lost all his titles and become a commoner, and most thought that that was what should´ve happened. But his brother and now King, George VI, prefered to keep him as a prince.

When you step out of the line of succession, you lose everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imperiale View Post
Yes, the prince who lives in Sao Paulo, Dom Luiz, is a descendent of many great European houses. What this has to do with a qualification to be an Brasilian Emperor is beyond me! This is Brasil on the American continent. We have no need for foreign conventions. This prince has never worked a day in his life. What kind of example is this to all those Brasilians who work so hard to get by. Why does he not live in Rio de Janeiro or Petropolis which are traditional habitats of Brasilian imperials?
Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

First, Dom Luiz is severed disabled. When a child, he had polio. He walks almost every time in a wheelchair. Didn´t you know that?

And in Chapter 4 (Of the succession of the Empire) of the brazilian constitution of 1824, it says:

"Art. 117 Sua descendência legítima sucederá no trono, segundo a ordem regular de primogenitura e representação, preferindo sempre a linha anterior as posteriores, na mesma linha, o grau mais próximo ao mais remoto, no mesmo grau, o sexo masculino ao feminino, no mesmo sexo, a pessoa mais velha a mais moça."

Dom Luiz is the older son of Dom Pedro Henrique, direct heir of Izabella.

So, brazilians speak portuguese, wich is a foreign languase... does it mean we should start speaking tupi?

Quote:
Originally Posted by imperiale View Post
The real point, I think, is that if the Brasilians ever vote for the restoration of constitutional monarchy (and I think they should) they will also choose for themselves who this emperor is to be. They will not be impressed by bloodlines or by those who do not labor in the field as they have to do. I suspect they will choose someone far more earthy than some of the present candidates.
Of course they will choose anyone they like. And then it will be called "Republic" and not a Monarchy.

Ow... they already do that and Brazil it is already a republic! Great, now you can be happy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by imperiale View Post
This the 21st Century. As many of the senior princes as possible should gather and declare that all princely marriages should be, as they are, considered valid so long as they follow the Roman Catholic rules for a valid marriage. Even if they do not do so changes nothing. It has only been a choice on the part of some princes to marry equally. How can anyone say that if a Brasilian prince marries a Brasilian "commoner" he can not be a Brasilian Emperor. I do not think the Brasilian people feel this way. In fact I bet if they really understood this they would be out raged.
It´s called "customs". You know, when thre isn´t a law regarding something, people follow the usual custom. That´s why UK doens´t have a written constitution.

And the brazilian custom is to marry royals. Dom Antonio married Christine of Lige, that is in the line of succession to the Luxemburg throne (she´s half Bourbon), Dom Pedro Henrique married Elizabeth of Bavaria, Izabella married Gaston d´Orleans, Dom Pedro II married Teresa of Bourbon, etc...

Who are you to tell what they should or not do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by imperiale View Post
I always rely on the Brasilian Imperial Constitution for my research and views. Where is this "Official and Valid" (my quotation marks) house rules. I think they do not exist except in wishful minds. Perhaps I am wrong?!
Yes you are. And no, you don´t rely on the brazilian constitution of 1824 or you would have known about art. 117 is wrought before.

House rules are based on customs. That´s how it is with the british, the germans, the french, etc...

Why don´t you just say "I want Dom Joãozinho as an emperor" and stop trying to find something wrong in the Vassouras branch?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-12-2008, 10:04 AM
Lecen's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Denver, United States
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina View Post
A Crown Prince is not elected. It doesnt matter if he has a career or if he cares for work or not. He can be a lazy person and he still is the Crown Prince. That's the reason I am not 100% a monarchy supporter. I couldnt get over the fact that "my" Crown Prince was a lazy and stupid person, while his brother (or cousin, etc) was a smart, educated and talented one. But if a country chooses to keep a monarchy, then they have to accept the risk.
As I said in my last post, Dom Luiz is severed disable person because he had polio.

The next in line is Dom Bertrand, and he was a lawyer but now is retired, as he has more than 65 years old.

After that, comes Dom Antonio, that has two jobs and is an engineering.

And last one is Dom Pedro Luiz, son of Dom Antonio, that now is living in Belgium working in a bank (the main reason he´s there is to find a suitable spouse to him).

When Dom Pedro Henriue came to Brazil in 1945, he bough a small farm and he and his children (Dom Luiz, Dom Bertrand and Dom Antonio) worked as farmers.

The same can´t be told about the Petrópolis branch, that lives in a Palace (The Great-Pará Palace) and receive per year more than $600.000 as taxes from the Petrópolis city. Recently, Dom Pedro Carlos, son of Dom Gastão (that died in 2007) sold an historical object for more than $250.000. He is planning to sell the Great Pará Palace for more than $ 7 million.

Now please, can someone tell me what do they do with all that money?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-12-2008, 01:12 PM
Regina's Avatar
Serene Highness
TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 1,657
Quote:

Eu o Principe Dom Pedro de Alcantara Luiz Philippe Maria Gastão Miguel Gabriel Raphael Gonzaga de Orleans e Bragança, tendo maduramente reflectido, resolvi renunciar ao direito que pela Constituição do Imperio do Brazil promulgada a 25 de Março de 1824 me compete à Corôa do mesmo Paiz. Declaro pois que por minha muito livre e espontanea vontade d'elle desisto pela presente e renuncio, não só por mim, como por todos e cada um dos meus descendentes, a todo e qualquer direito que a dita Constituição nos confere á Corôa e Throno Brazileiros, o qual passará ás linhas que se seguirem á minha conforme a ordem de successão estabelecida pelo Art. 117. Perante Deus prometto por mim e meus descendentes manter a presente declaração.

Cannes 30 de Outubro de 1908

assinado: Pedro de Alcântara de Orleans e Bragança

"I renounced my rights for myself and all my descendents to the brazilian imperial throne"

Could he be more clear than that?
You're right. Dom Pedro renounced his rights. Dom Pedro wanted to marry Countess Elisabeth Dobrzensky. His mother Isabel, Princess Imperial of Brazil, didn't considerate the Countess as enough royal. As a result, he renounced his rights to the throne of Brazil. Simple as that.

A few years before his death, Dom Pedro de Alcântara told a Brazilian newspaper "My resignation was not valid for many reasons: besides, it was not a hereditary resignation" (The Imperial Family of Brazil; Bodstein, Astrid ; 2006).
But the truth is that he renounced to the Throne. After your renounce, there is nothing you can do against it.


Quote:
Of course they will choose anyone they like. And then it will be called "Republic" and not a Monarchy.

Ow... they already do that and Brazil it is already a republic! Great, now you can be happy!
I am not Brazilian, but, IMO, if Brazil wants an elected monarch (this sounds so weird!), then it should stay a republic with Lula (or another one) as Imperor...
Monachies are based on Tradition and Blood, it has been like that for centuries.

Quote:
And the brazilian custom is to marry royals. Dom Antonio married Christine of Lige, that is in the line of succession to the Luxemburg throne (she´s half Bourbon), Dom Pedro Henrique married Elizabeth of Bavaria, Izabella married Gaston d´Orleans, Dom Pedro II married Teresa of Bourbon, etc...

Who are you to tell what they should or not do?
In Europe, Crown Princes marry ladies who have no drop of noble blood. IMO, european monarchies won't last much, because after the initial enthusiasm for a commoner as future queen, the monarchy will loose its superiority at people's eyes. So, I really hope Brazilian royals don't loose their custom of marring royals. How weird it would be to see a Vera Fischer or a Claudia Raia as Princess Imperial
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-19-2008, 07:36 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Curitiba, Brazil
Posts: 2
The Chief of Imperial Brazilian House

Dom Pedro Carlos De Orleans E BraganÇa.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-21-2008, 10:07 AM
Lecen's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Denver, United States
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfknauer View Post
Dom Pedro Carlos De Orleans E BraganÇa.
The republican?

It´s interesting to see that brazilians supports a person who doens´t believe in monarchy.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-21-2008, 10:13 AM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 13,882
Well, to be the head of a house doesn't mean that you have to be in favour of the monarchy. AD Otto accepted the Austrian republic at one point (much to the dismay of his brothers) and the head of the Monegrin royal house also says he favours a republic.
__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-21-2008, 11:41 AM
Lecen's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Denver, United States
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Well, to be the head of a house doesn't mean that you have to be in favour of the monarchy. AD Otto accepted the Austrian republic at one point (much to the dismay of his brothers) and the head of the Monegrin royal house also says he favours a republic.
Does that mean that the elder uncles of dom Duarte, duke of Braganza and of don Juan Carlos I, king of Spain are the legitimate heirs to the portuguese and spanish crown?

They all renounced their rights to marry lower-rank women just like in Brazil.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-22-2008, 11:02 AM
Regina's Avatar
Serene Highness
TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 1,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecen View Post
Does that mean that the elder uncles of dom Duarte, duke of Braganza and of don Juan Carlos I, king of Spain are the legitimate heirs to the portuguese and spanish crown?

They all renounced their rights to marry lower-rank women just like in Brazil.
I believe when they renounce their rights, they are voluntarilyrenouncing the throne for themselves and their descendants.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-07-2008, 07:38 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil
Posts: 15
"And last one is Dom Pedro Luiz, son of Dom Antonio, that now is living in Belgium working in a bank (the main reason he´s there is to find a suitable spouse to him)". LECEN 2-12-2008


So this Prince of Brasil is not interested in marrying a Brasilian woman? Is his family pushing this? I do not mind if he marries royalty but I do mind that he will not accept a Brasilian. I hope this is all untrue. He seems like a fine young man. He seems more normal than the odd couple in Sao Paulo. What ever he does I think we all wish him well.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
brazilian imperial family, claimants, petropolis, succession, vassouras


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Imperial Family of China Devin Other Non-Reigning Houses and Historical Monarchies 193 04-10-2014 09:07 AM
The Bonaparte Imperial Family Warren The Imperial House of Bonaparte 118 01-29-2014 04:05 PM
Brazilian Imperial Palaces, residences etc Marengo The Imperial Family of Brazil 22 05-30-2013 05:28 PM
Imperial Family of Ethiopia CrownPrinceLorenzo Other Non-Reigning Houses and Historical Monarchies 41 06-14-2012 02:33 PM
Japan Imperial Family Warren Royal Genealogy 3 08-20-2006 12:10 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth birthday bourbon-parma camilla charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria danish royals engagement fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume hohenzollern infanta elena king abdullah king abdullah ii king albert ii king carl xvi gustav king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander norway picture thread pom pregnancy prince albert prince albert ii prince constantijn prince felipe prince felix prince frederik prince henrik prince joachim princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess haya princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess marie princess mary princess maxima princess of orange queen elizabeth ii queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia state visit wedding willem-alexander william


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:36 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]