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  #81  
Old 06-18-2013, 04:30 PM
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Interesting Discussion Here. It gas Been a Good Read. I got to wondering something recently, How would a country who is now a republic that use to be a Monarchy (Brazil, France for example) go about restoring their Monarchy? Like if they decided to restore the monarchy that had not been in power for Decades how would they go about restoring it? What is the process?
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  #82  
Old 06-18-2013, 06:06 PM
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I will try to explain my point of view. Nobody in Congress, no association, no club, no one really, is interested in promoting any kind of referendum. Suppose there is a pro monarchy political party. This party could at least appear on TV for free (even if their time is minimal) explaining what is parliamentarism and why they think it is a better form of government. They would appear in the newspapers discussing the subject. How can the population support something they don't know? The monarchists might have a chance in convincing other parties to support parliamentarism. It might even evolve to promote a referendum for a change from presidentialism to parlamentarism. They could try to make this discussion relevant. Nowadays, that kind of discussion is COMPLETLY IRRELAVANT for the population, elite and government.
The Imperial Family doesn't necessarily need to choose a canditate among themselves but one of them can be an Honorary President of a pro monarchy party or a strong visible supporter. Their members could also make a point running only for Congress, not for an executive position in order to show they are not after power itself but only power to promote more transparency in government and social and political improvement for the nation.
The monarchists must show their faces, their ideas and their recent achievements. They will risk being ridiculed, but hey, no pain, no gain.
Frankly, living in a limbo, floating above the population, living in the past (what is different from cherishing it) won't help them to achieve anything. Being elegant, goodlooking, refined, intellectual is wonderful, but speeches, cutting ribons, going to museums and being in events celebrating the past can only be charming, nothing more. People here in Brazil is different from people in Europe (even from our close and cherished relatives from Portugal - the same happens between North Americans and Great Britons)
What made me post that much is that when you read some posts in this thread someone might think that there is a chance of monarchy in Brazil and how the movement is growing and so on. One of my first posts on this subject said that the more time passes, the lesser is their chance. And their chance right now is almost zero.
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  #83  
Old 06-18-2013, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BritishRoyalist View Post
Interesting Discussion Here. It gas Been a Good Read. I got to wondering something recently, How would a country who is now a republic that use to be a Monarchy (Brazil, France for example) go about restoring their Monarchy? Like if they decided to restore the monarchy that had not been in power for Decades how would they go about restoring it? What is the process?
In a democratic way? Change the constitution.
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  #84  
Old 06-18-2013, 06:11 PM
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Yes in a Democratic way, Change the Constitution
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  #85  
Old 06-18-2013, 11:33 PM
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Cmbruno, are they even interested in politics or are they happy doing what they do...look good, be charming, cut ribbons, etc.?
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  #86  
Old 06-19-2013, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by cmbruno View Post
I will try to explain my point of view. Nobody in Congress, no association, no club, no one really, is interested in promoting any kind of referendum. Suppose there is a pro monarchy political party. This party could at least appear on TV for free (even if their time is minimal) explaining what is parliamentarism and why they think it is a better form of government. They would appear in the newspapers discussing the subject. How can the population support something they don't know? The monarchists might have a chance in convincing other parties to support parliamentarism. It might even evolve to promote a referendum for a change from presidentialism to parlamentarism. They could try to make this discussion relevant. Nowadays, that kind of discussion is COMPLETLY IRRELAVANT for the population, elite and government.
Sure, a pro-monarchist political party would bring more attention to the cause in the short term. But in the long term, it would do nothing for the cause. After the initial phase, when (in the best circumstances) people talked a lot about it, it appeared in the news, etc, the issue would slowly die, as do all subjects. And soon, monarchits would start to be mistaken with other politicians, which isn't exactly a good thing in a country where politicians are more often than not regarded as a bunch of corrupt people who use politics to serve themselves and not the country.

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Originally Posted by cmbruno View Post
The monarchists must show their faces, their ideas and their recent achievements. They will risk being ridiculed, but hey, no pain, no gain.
Frankly, living in a limbo, floating above the population, living in the past (what is different from cherishing it) won't help them to achieve anything. Being elegant, goodlooking, refined, intellectual is wonderful, but speeches, cutting ribons, going to museums and being in events celebrating the past can only be charming, nothing more. People here in Brazil is different from people in Europe (even from our close and cherished relatives from Portugal - the same happens between North Americans and Great Britons)
Just to clarify that I don't suggest the Emperial Family to keep doing what they are doing and neither to be charming, cutting ribons and going to museums. It's clear something different has to be done, they have to have a more hands-on approach, to make themselves more known, they have to engage in social networks, promote meetings with people that are not only the usual monarchits, maybe launch a campaign in TV or in newspapers, etc etc. Endless choices. I just think that a political party shouldn't be one of those choices.
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  #87  
Old 06-19-2013, 11:20 AM
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Dear AfricanAUSSIE, I really don't know, because I have never read anything about any of their thoughts on political issues or causes they support other than parliamentarism and monarchy a long time ago during the referendum in Brazil.
I have read two books written by members of the Imperial family about their ancestors and themselves. One of the princes of the Petropolis branch (that branch is not the dinastic one) was a pilot during the second world war.
Maybe another Brazilian member of the forum might give us some input. Anyway, I don't usually go to their sites to search for information on them. I can only inform about what I read or see on maintrain media.
I have thought about Ish and Juliette's position, both of them very well balanced - a royal family should be above political parties and keep their tradition as well. Not distancing myself very much of what i previously stated, they should at least strongly support causes they believe.
See Prince Charles for instance, championing environmental and green causes. In the beginning some newspapers even made fun of him but he proved himself right over and over again.
There are so many issues on social, educational and health grounds that they could support openly and make a difference.
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  #88  
Old 06-19-2013, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
No member of the Imperial Family should run for a public office.
I couldn't agree more.

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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
In this moment it is important that more Brazilians know HRH Prince Raphael. He will be the symbol of Monarchy in the future.
That will happens. Since his brother's death, in 2009, Prince Rafael has appearing more and more, it's a question of time.

Also, we have to remember that he assume his current role fairly recently, and only at the age of 23.

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Originally Posted by BritishRoyalist View Post
Interesting Discussion Here. It gas Been a Good Read. I got to wondering something recently, How would a country who is now a republic that use to be a Monarchy (Brazil, France for example) go about restoring their Monarchy? Like if they decided to restore the monarchy that had not been in power for Decades how would they go about restoring it? What is the process?
The only way to restore the Monarchy is by a referendum.

In 1963, the Militaries offered the Throne to Prince Pedro Henrique (1909-1981), then Head of the Imperial House, but he refused to become Emperor by means of a coup d'état.

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Originally Posted by AfricanAUSSIE View Post
Cmbruno, are they even interested in politics or are they happy doing what they do...look good, be charming, cut ribbons, etc.?
The Imperial Family wants much more than this.

The problem is that they don't receive media coverage.

Prince Luiz is an old man with serious health problems, but he always recieves journalists and other people at his home, his adress is available on internet, anyone can stop for a visit. Princes Bertrand and Antônio travels the entire country, attending meetings and other events.

Prince Antônio is always visiting schools and universities, he even visited a detention center (accompanied by Prince Rafael). Princess Cristina works with charities for mentally disabled children. Sometimes, the Goverment invetes Prince Antônio and Princess Cristina to represent the Imperial Family at official events.

Prince Rafael is starting to work for the Imperial Family, but he also has his work for Ambev. And we have to undestand his situation: the poor guy only become a direct heir to the Throne at the age of 24, after his brother's death.

Princess Amélia is now living and working in London, so she's not representing the Imperial Family anymore (I hope she return married with a Prince). Princess Maria Gabriela only finished college last year, but she has already accompanied her father to an official event, and was the highest ranking female royal at last year Monarchical Meeting.

Princess Isabel has worked for the Red Cross (she served as the President of the Brazilian Red Cross), and she's still envolved with many charities.

And we also have the Princess of Ligne, who is envolved with charities, but in Belgium.

The Imperial Family does a lot of things, but they don't receive any coverage.
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  #89  
Old 06-19-2013, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
The only way to restore the Monarchy is by a referendum.
A referendum to change the Constitution.
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  #90  
Old 06-19-2013, 01:29 PM
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I understand, Brazilian Empire. They have all been living decent and productive lives but it is not enough to inspire people to fight for a Constitutional monarchy.
You said "The Imperial Family wants much more than this." What to they want? They don't receive media coverage, so maybe you could enlighten us. It would be very helpful.
And yes, Julliiet, I understood that you have agreed with a more hands on approach but disagreed with a political party or running for an election. I just want to point out that a political involvement would give them media coverage for no money. And I also understood that the costs of such an involvement may turn out to be worse than financial ones.

Monarchy in Brazil is just a romantic idea right now and it will continue to be so if nothing different is done. A hands on approach from the Imperial family is necessary. Suggestions from different people in this forum have been given; the way it should be done is for the Imperial family to decide.

I think I have said more than enough and tried hard to be unbiased, being a non-monarchist in the case of Brazil. So, I rest my case.

Finally, I would like to thank everybody here for their excellent inputs.
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  #91  
Old 06-19-2013, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cmbruno View Post
You said "The Imperial Family wants much more than this." What to they want? They don't receive media coverage, so maybe you could enlighten us. It would be very helpful.
Yes, I can say what the Imperial Family wants to do.

http://www.monarquia.org.br/PDFs/propostas.pdf

That's what the Restoration will do for Brazil, I'll provide a translation later.
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  #92  
Old 06-21-2013, 06:53 AM
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Are the current members independently wealthy? Are they "middle class"? How do they make a living?

I am not seeing monarchy happening in Brazil. I kind of see Brazil as too non traditional to take that up. An up and coming country, abuzz with untapped energy and pizzazz.

The current demonstrations also make me think that this issue is far, far from the general population's minds right now.
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  #93  
Old 06-21-2013, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by AfricanAUSSIE View Post
Are the current members independently wealthy? Are they "middle class"? How do they make a living?

The Imperial Family is middle class.

Prince Luiz, Head of the Imperial House, is graduated in Chemistry by the University of Munich and in French by the University of Paris.

Prince Bertrand, Prince Imperial of Brazil, is a lawyer. He and Prince Luiz never worked, because they devoted their lives to the Monarchist Movement, always travelling arount the country, to promote Monarchism, presiding over meeting and giving interviews. The two Princes lives in a rented house in São Paulo. They receive donations from Monarchists (including my father and my grandfather).

Prince Antônio, the third in the Line of Succession, worked as Engineer, but he's now retired. His Royal Highness is also an accomplished watercolorist.

Princess Cristina (neé Princess of Ligne), wife of Prince Antônio, is a housewife. But Her Royal Highness also works with charities supporting mentally disabled children.

Prince Rafael, fourth in the Line of Succession, is a engineer of production, he works for AmBev, a big company here in Brazil.

Princess Amélia, fifth in the Line, is an architect. Her Royal Highness lives and works in London.

Princess Maria Gabriela, the sixth in Line, has recently graduated from University, where she studied Social Comunication.

Prince Antônio and Princess Cristina lives in Rio de Janeiro, with two of their children (Prince Rafael and Princess Maria Gabriela). They also have a house in Petrópolis.

Princess Isabel, who is sister of the Head of the Imperial House, woked as a social worker. Her Royal Highness also served as President of the Brazilian Red Cross. She lives in a apartament in Rio de Janeiro. Since her mother's death, in 2011, Her Royal Highness, who is unmarried and childless, lives alone.

Princess Eleonora, younger sister of the Head of the Imperial House, is married to the Prince of Ligne. Her Royal Highness lives in Belgium, with her family. She has a quite important role envolving charities.
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  #94  
Old 06-21-2013, 11:15 PM
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Thank you very much BrazilianEmpire, a very thorough response. Middle class to be sure and getting on with life.

I wonder, will you and your family be "knitted" if they are ever restored?
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  #95  
Old 06-22-2013, 11:58 AM
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I wonder, will you and your family be "knitted" if they are ever restored?
Well, I come from a very traditional family. My parents come from families who were part of the Imperial Aristocracy.

We support the Imperial Family since the Independence. Help the Imperial House is something we do simply because of loyalty.
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  #96  
Old 06-22-2013, 12:12 PM
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And I'm sure, or at least hope, the Imperial Family appreciates their loyal followers.
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  #97  
Old 06-22-2013, 04:41 PM
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And I'm sure, or at least hope, the Imperial Family appreciates their loyal followers.
Oh, they are very grateful toward us, the Monarchists, and they really appreciate our efforts.

Prince Bertrand once said to me that he feels very moved by all the support the Imperial Family receives, especially by young people.
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  #98  
Old 06-22-2013, 10:53 PM
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Well, I come from a very traditional family. My parents come from families who were part of the Imperial Aristocracy.

We support the Imperial Family since the Independence. Help the Imperial House is something we do simply because of loyalty.
Well now that is very interesting. My mother is from families who were part of the Portuguese Royal houses (we have 2 coat of arms) and we were brought up in very strict and socially confined environment with all those lovely rules of who you can associate with, how and when. How to behave, sit, dress and so on. When we, by sheer accident, came upon Australia, we (myself and sibling) found a sense of freedom like no other. The shekels were well and truly removed and we haven't looked back. My mother, of course, did not find the change to her favour but my father found the experience to be a great adventure. He was not from royal blood but was a highly educated and genteel man. He was a diplomat for the Portuguese government.

How interesting that you are a supporter of monarchy and I am not. I have always struggled with the idea of being privileged for no apparent reason but for an accident of birth. Although I find the history very interesting I don't accept that one should "rule" or be of influence unless one earns that position and the respect of the people by servitude, works, commitment and ability.

It could be argued that many of our leaders are truly undeserving, but at least, in a democratic society, we can kick them out! No so with the royals. Just look at William of England. Does that look like a man who wants the job?

Having said that, I fully understand and respect your commitment and support of your Imperial family. They are very fortunate to have you on board. I admire your commitment and dedication BrazilianEmpire.
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  #99  
Old 06-22-2013, 11:10 PM
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Having said that, I fully understand and respect your commitment and support of your Imperial family. They are very fortunate to have you on board. I admire your commitment and dedication BrazilianEmpire.
Oh, there was no way to be different. I was raised in a extremely Monarchist environment.

We have a picture of the Head of the Imperial House hanged on living room wall, mom taught me how to bow by the age of four, and she taught my two sisters how to curtsy at the same age.

I'm used to meet with Princes and Princesses since an early age, and I know very well how to behave in front of them.

The Brazilian aristocracy is very united, even a hundred years after the fall of the Monarchy.
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Old 06-23-2013, 01:50 AM
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Oh, there was no way to be different. I was raised in a extremely Monarchist environment.

We have a picture of the Head of the Imperial House hanged on living room wall, mom taught me how to bow by the age of four, and she taught my two sisters how to curtsy at the same age.

I'm used to meet with Princes and Princesses since an early age, and I know very well how to behave in front of them.

The Brazilian aristocracy is very united, even a hundred years after the fall of the Monarchy.
Wow! That is dedication, commitment and unity indeed! All I had to go through was the deportment lessons since I was very, very little. And all that social who is who staff.

Our lot was not united, quite the opposite. You have aroused my interest in the Brazilian Imperial family. I shall have to google them now...thanks a lot!
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