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  #61  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:04 AM
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Very nice to hear that more young people are supporting the monarchy. The same is happening here in Portugal. There is this idea of monarchists being nostalgic old men but it is so wrong. More and more I meet young people in favour of a monarchy here in Portugal. It's indeed a breath of fresh air and a unique opportunity to break old prejudices people have against the monarchy, many of them who are even thaught in schools.
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Old 06-17-2013, 02:16 PM
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Any link with the news in English about these last events?
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Old 06-17-2013, 02:51 PM
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I think I would have a lot more faith in the accuracy of the poll if it was done by an independent polling organization with no ties to the monarchist movement. The IBI is not exactly unbiased and it is afterall in their best interest to arrive at the largest possible pro monarchy number.
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Old 06-17-2013, 05:24 PM
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What you're saying is right, NGalitzine. The problem is to find an independent polling organization with resources enough to carry a study with a very large random sample, so as to eliminate the bias. Such a poll would cost much money, that likely only State institutions can pay and that would obviously be biased to the republican side, because of political pressures. Not to talk that it's in their interest to keep alive the idea that monarchists are just a bunch of old nostalgic men with no importance at all. Monarchists have no money so they can only run small polls where the sample is not exactly random and thus is biased.
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Old 06-17-2013, 07:47 PM
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The monarchists need a charismatic and "popular" leader ASAP. Brazil isn't England. The Imperial family is too much formal for Brazilian mass taste. They should get organized and get a good media person, try to start a party (not 3 or 4 different ones) and make an alliance with a strong party to promote parliamentarism. One of the royals should even consider running for a public office. Do I think Brazil will ever be a monarchy again? No way, Jose! But at least they would be doing something for their cause. Nowadays the active monarchists seem to be a bunch of pompous elitists living outside reality. Please, pay attention that I said "seem to be", not that "they are" - I really don't know them, and frankly my fellow posters, they don't raise my interest at all (hey, I avoided to paraphrase Rett Butler).
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Old 06-17-2013, 07:58 PM
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Some young Monarchists with HRH Prince Antônio of Brazil and HIRH Prince Bertrand, Prince Imperial of Brazil, during the Mass in Honour of the the Head of the Imperial House.

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...51665296_n.jpg

Also, at least two Monarchists organizations in Rio de Janeiro are taking part in some of the protests in Rio.
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  #67  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:02 PM
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S

Also, at least two Monarchists organizations in Rio de Janeiro are taking part in some of the protests in Rio.
Way to go, monarchists!
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Old 06-17-2013, 08:05 PM
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Way to go, monarchists!
Our country is changing.
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  #69  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:22 PM
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The monarchists need a charismatic and "popular" leader ASAP. Brazil isn't England. The Imperial family is too much formal for Brazilian mass taste. They should get organized and get a good media person, try to start a party (not 3 or 4 different ones) and make an alliance with a strong party to promote parlamentarism. One of the royals should even consider running for a public office. Do I think Brazil will ever be a monarchy again? No way, Jose! But at least they would be doing something for their cause. Nowadays the active monarchists seem to be a bunch of pompous elitists living outside reality. Please, pay attention that I said "seem to be", not that "they are" - I really don't know them, and frankly my fellow posters, they don't raise my interest at all (hey, I avoided to paraphrase Rett Butler).
I, believe, your assessment is quite accurate. You are Brazilian and I suspect you know the real deal. Thank you. Just because you are displeased with one thing , doesn't mean you are going to return to the 18th Century. Brazilian Royals are non-entities on the world stage. You are right, if they entered a political arena, one might know who they are. Over formal royalty, today, is an anachronism.
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:24 PM
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I, believe, your assessment is quite accurate. You are Brazilian and I suspect you know the real deal. Thank you. Just because you are displeased with one thing , doesn't mean you are going to return to the 18th Century. Brazilian Royals are non-entities on the world stage. You are right, if they entered a political arena, one might know who they are. Over formal royalty, today, is an anachronism.
I get that you live in a republic and are a republican (in terms of government types, not necessarily the American party), but I can't help but feel that your stance on monarchies is a bit disrespectful to those of us here who are monarchists and live in countries with constitutional monarchies.

While 18th century, absolute monarchies are largely anachronistic with modern society (Brazil ceased to be a monarchy in the 19th century, by the way), constitutional monarchies are not. In fact, the most recent Democracy Index puts a lot of constitutional monarchies in the top spots (I believe 4 of the top 5 are all constitutional monarchies). Maintaining a constitutional monarchy is not in contradiction with having a modern or democratic country.

I don't think being overly formal is a detriment to currently reigning monarchies. The British monarchy is very formal, yet it's still going rather strong. It's a monarchy that is founded upon it's traditions, and a big part of why it continues to be is because it has managed to find a balance between modernity and tradition, a struggle that it must continue constantly. You can't change too much because if you do so you expose the monarchy too much, but you can't go I changing because if you do so the people will revolt.

The problem that the Brazilian Imperial Family has, along with other non-reigning royal houses, is that they can't evolve as easily while maintaining their legacy - and their legacy and the prospect of one day having a restoration is very important to many members of these families and their supporters. They can't easily change their succession laws because they're not supported by legislature and instantly called into doubt (look at the attempts of changing the succession made by Michael of Romania). Unfortunately this means that a good number of non-reigning powers continue to operate using Salic or Semi-Salic law and dynastic marriages.

It doesn't mean that they or the institution they represent is incompatible with ruling in the 21st century, it means that if they get restored changes have to happen (which, shockingly, would likely be encompassed in the changes). We have seen countries undergo restorations, we have even seen countries that didn't have a monarchy elect to adopt one. That means that however unlikely it is for a restoration to occur, it is possible - especially in countries where the royal family continues to have a political presence. I don't think it's likely that Brazil or any of the monarchies that were deposed by 1918 are likely to be restored anytime soon (especially if the polling for Brazil is only 21%), but I could see it happening in a nation that deposed its monarchy in the interwar or, especially, the post-World War 2 era.
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:45 PM
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IIt doesn't mean that they or the institution they represent is incompatible with ruling in the 21st century, it means that if they get restored changes have to happen (which, shockingly, would likely be encompassed in the changes). We have seen countries undergo restorations, we have even seen countries that didn't have a monarchy elect to adopt one. That means that however unlikely it is for a restoration to occur, it is possible - especially in countries where the royal family continues to have a political presence. I don't think it's likely that Brazil or any of the monarchies that were deposed by 1918 are likely to be restored anytime soon (especially if the polling for Brazil is only 21%), but I could see it happening in a nation that deposed its monarchy in the interwar or, especially, the post-World War 2 era.
Please refresh my memory. In which country without a monarchic tradition did the people vote to adopt a monarchy and presumably elect a king?
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  #72  
Old 06-17-2013, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Please refresh my memory. In which country without a monarchic tradition did the people vote to adopt a monarchy and presumably elect a king?
Sorry, by elect I didn't mean vote I meant chose. Poor choice of words.

Greece chose to bring in a monarchy. Norway also attempted to establish a monarchy when it tried for independence from Denmark, and succeeded in establishing one when it gained independence from Sweden. The Dutch Republic evolved into a monarchy, and after the defeat of Napoleon the Dutch invited William I to head the government, which he then turned into a monarchy.
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  #73  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:13 PM
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I don't think being overly formal is a detriment to currently reigning monarchies. The British monarchy is very formal, yet it's still going rather strong. It's a monarchy that is founded upon it's traditions, and a big part of why it continues to be is because it has managed to find a balance between modernity and tradition, a struggle that it must continue constantly. You can't change too much because if you do so you expose the monarchy too much, but you can't go I changing because if you do so the people will revolt.
.
I agree with you here about most of European nations in relation to tradition. But Brazil is a different story. Brazil is a melting pot of different ethinicites and most of them are from countries that do not have a monarchy nowadays: Portugal, Italy, German, Poland, and so on. Of course native Brazilians were divided in too many tribes and Africans that came to Brazil were also from many different ethnicities. From the end of the XVII century till last mid century the major cultural influence was French (which inspired many movements pro independence from Portugal and later pro Republic) and after that North American. People that came (and come) to the New World were not happy with their previous way of living and wanted to try something new!
I am not against tradition, I think it is desirable but the truth is Brazil is not a traditional nation and it will not become one in a near future. Culture comes after one's belly is full. Deprived people don't have memory - at least long memory. Just recently Brazil is becoming fairer in income distribution so it will take us a while. On the other hand, there has always been a part of the population that is highly educated and cosmopolitan. As a matter of fact, much more cosmopolitan than the majority of some first world countries.
So tradition, however dignifying it may be, don't stand a chance against a more hands on approach with less pomp and circunstance from wanna be Emperors in Brazil.
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  #74  
Old 06-18-2013, 04:06 AM
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No member of the Imperial Family should run for a public office.
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  #75  
Old 06-18-2013, 09:56 AM
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I get that you live in a republic and are a republican (in terms of government types, not necessarily the American party), but I can't help but feel that your stance on monarchies is a bit disrespectful to those of us here who are monarchists and live in countries with constitutional monarchies.

While 18th century, absolute monarchies are largely anachronistic with modern society (Brazil ceased to be a monarchy in the 19th century, by the way), constitutional monarchies are not. In fact, the most recent Democracy Index puts a lot of constitutional monarchies in the top spots (I believe 4 of the top 5 are all constitutional monarchies). Maintaining a constitutional monarchy is not in contradiction with having a modern or democratic country.
Great post, Ish. Unfortunately, many people in republican countries like Brazil and Portugal thing the same way as Countess, having the same prejudices about the monarchy.
I don't think monarchies will be restored in these countries any time soon but we monarchists still have a great deal of work to do in order to "clean" the monarchy's image and erase many of the prejudices against it that persist in most people's minds.
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  #76  
Old 06-18-2013, 10:04 AM
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No member of the Imperial Family should run for a public office.
I tend to agree with this.

Here in Portugal there is a monarchic party (PPM=Partido Popular Monárquico). It elected briefly 2 or 3 members for the parliament but because its members were running in another party list. This coalition ceased some years ago. Apart from this experience they never elected anyone.
Some time ago, I think when the Republic celebrated its 100th anniversary, there was a debate Monarchy vs. Republic in the television, and this fact was raised against the monarchy: "Look, you have a party that barely no one votes for, which means people don't want a monarchy!". Of course, that's not true. There are many monarchists (like me) who vote for other parties (we now have, for example, 2 ministers in the government that are monarchists). The choice republic vs monarchy is independent from your political choices. Both left and right can support the monarchy, just looks at countries like England, the Netherlands, etc. The Monarch, and indeed, the concept of monarchy, have to be above politics and above the decision of who's going to govern us. I think the monarchy would have to gain if it distanced itself from politics instead of getting closer to it by running to an office.
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  #77  
Old 06-18-2013, 10:16 AM
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I tend to agree with this.

Both left and right can support the monarchy, just looks at countries like England, the Netherlands, etc. The Monarch, and indeed, the concept of monarchy, have to be above politics and above the decision of who's going to govern us. I think the monarchy would have to gain if it distanced itself from politics instead of getting closer to it by running to an office.
All of your points are valid for countries which have a head of state and a head of government. In countries like Brazil they do not apply. We only have a president. So, if monarchists want to stand a chance they have to fight for major changes in our constitution first. Unless monarchists are hoping for a revolution in order to skip all the democratic steps to build a constitutional monarchy.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:20 PM
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In this moment it is important that more Brazilians know HRH Prince Raphael. He will be the symbol of Monarchy in the future.
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:20 PM
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So tradition, however dignifying it may be, don't stand a chance against a more hands on approach with less pomp and circunstance from wanna bes Emperors in Brazil.
I agree with a lot of what you've said here. I think if the Brazilian Imperial Family wishes to be restored it needs to find a more hands on approach. However, at the same time it still needs to maintain that legacy and tradition - it needs to balance the two, just like any reigning house, but for them it's an even more difficult balancing act. They're essentially walking on a very thin tightrope.

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Originally Posted by julliette View Post

I tend to agree with this.

Here in Portugal there is a monarchic party (PPM=Partido Popular Monárquico). It elected briefly 2 or 3 members for the parliament but because its members were running in another party list. This coalition ceased some years ago. Apart from this experience they never elected anyone.
Some time ago, I think when the Republic celebrated its 100th anniversary, there was a debate Monarchy vs. Republic in the television, and this fact was raised against the monarchy: "Look, you have a party that barely no one votes for, which means people don't want a monarchy!". Of course, that's not true. There are many monarchists (like me) who vote for other parties (we now have, for example, 2 ministers in the government that are monarchists). The choice republic vs monarchy is independent from your political choices. Both left and right can support the monarchy, just looks at countries like England, the Netherlands, etc. The Monarch, and indeed, the concept of monarchy, have to be above politics and above the decision of who's going to govern us. I think the monarchy would have to gain if it distanced itself from politics instead of getting closer to it by running to an office.
The monarch does have to be above political allegiance - the monarch has to be able to appear neutral - but at the same time the monarchy has to appear to be politically relevant. I don't think being involved in politics in terms of having a political party or running for office will help the monarchist cause, but neither will staying out of politics entirely. Once again, it's a balancing act.

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Originally Posted by cmbruno View Post

All of your points are valid for countries which have a head of state and a head of government. In countries like Brazil they do not apply. We only have a president. So, if monarchists want to stand a chance they have to fight for major changes in our constitution first. Unless monarchists are hoping for a revolution in order to skip all the democratic steps to build a constitutional monarchy.
I agree here. If monarchists want to make a change they have to fight for one on a political level. Furthermore, they have to fight to make the monarchy seem relevant within Brazil.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:12 PM
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Of course, they have to show they're politically relevant but having a political party and running for elections would mean that when elections come they'll have to debate things that are more of the executive power of the government and not so much of a possible King or Emperor. And that could hurt them more than benefit them, IMO, because it will make people who don't share their views about these topics not vote for them. Monarchists are already connected with the image of very conservative, right wing people, which doesn't help them in a having a more diversified basis of support. Running for elections wouldn't help them. The decision between monarchy vs republic has nothing to do with decisions like to raise taxes, build another hospital, have an expansionary economic policy or not, etc. The King/Emperor is expected to stay away from this, and in fact wins if he does. So, of course, they have to be politically relevant, but they shouldn't mix themselves with executive decisions and running for elections is inevitable they do mix.

I don't understand you point very well, cmbruno. Sure, to become of monarchy Brazil would have to change its constitution and, obviously, only the parliament can change the constitution. But how is it necessary that the monarchists have a political party and gain places in the parliament? I don't think it is because the only way monarchy is restaured is through a referendum. Even if a monarchist political party gained elections and formed government, they couldn't make the decision to restaure the monarchy. That would be very undemocratic. A referendum is the only alternative. And if monarchy wins a referendum, likely the parliament would change the constitution, with no need for a monarchist political party, because:
-I'm not sure if Brazilian constitutuion (or other law) predicts it, but there are Vinculative referendums, where even if the government/the majority in the parliament disagrees with the outcome of it, it has to legislate according to the outcome.
-If monarchy wins the referendum, it's because a big majority of brazilians want a monarchy. It would be abnormal that this majority isn't represented in the parliament with monarchists member of other "normal" political parties.

This said, I think monarchists have to be more organized and have to invest more in PR, in make themselves more known by the average brazilian, etc. And, of course, they can meet politicians, of all political parties and, indeed, try to "convert" some of them to the monarchic cause. But constitute themselves a political party and run for elections isn't a good solution, IMO
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