The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:02 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 10
Can anyone help me out?

My grandfather has just shown me a family tree and has been talking about his mother recently, I always knew she was Brazilian-Italian or something, but now I hear she was Princess Pia Maria of Orléans-Braganza! You can imagine my shock of learning that great grandmère 'Pima' was actually a Princess!

My patrilineal family, le famille de Nicolaÿ I already knew were nobles de l'ancien régime, but I'd never considered great grandpère René marrying into potential royalty.

Who exactly was she related to? Am I in line for any throne? Was Princess Pia Maria descended from any kings or queens?
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:29 PM
Cris M's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niterói, Brazil
Posts: 164
That's great. I'm brazilian and monarchist. Your grandmother was a Princess of Brazil and a Princess of Orleans-Braganza. And, from 1931 to 1938, she was The Princess Imperial of Brazil, meaning she was the heiress presumptive to the Headship of the Imperial House of Brazil.

And, yes, she descendend from a lot of Kings and Queens. Her paternal great-grandfather was the Emperor Pedro II of Brazil (1825-1891), the last brazilian Monarch. Being her great-grandson, you are first-cousin three times removed of the current Head of the Imperial House of Brazil, His Imperial and Royal Highness Prince Luiz.

Your grandfather is one of Princess Maria's two sons, Count Louis-Jean and Count Robert de Nicolaÿ.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:35 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 10
Mon dieu, I would never have thought! Emperor, now that's quite the title

If she was heiress presumptive, does that put me in line to the Imperial throne? If it is a question of morganatic marriage, my great-grandfather René was a Prince of the Papal States (14th Prince Nicolay) as well as a Marquis et Count en France, je ne sais pas si cela signifie quelque chose?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:38 PM
Cris M's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niterói, Brazil
Posts: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComtedeNicolay View Post
Mon dieu, I would never have thought! Emperor, now that's quite the title

If she was heiress presumptive, does that put me in line to the Imperial throne? If it is a question of morganatic marriage, my great-grandfather René was a Prince of the Papal States (14th Prince Nicolay) as well as a Marquis et Count en France, je ne sais pas si cela signifie quelque chose?
As far as I know, her descendants are not in line to the Throne because they do not hold brazilian citizenship, which is required.

The marriage between your great-grandparents was recognized as dynastic by your great-grandmother's brother, Prince Pedro Henrique (1909-1981), who was the Head of the Imperial House of Brazil from 1921 to 1981.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:41 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 10
And it's Louis Jean, je pense que son nom complet est Louis Jean Gaston Marie de Nicolaÿ, marquis de Nicolaÿ, comte de Nicolaÿ, marquis de Goussainville, etc.

My uncles are Robert et Victor, Robert est le marquis d'Ivor au présent and Victor est le comte de Cherbourg et marquis d'Osny, etc.

Also, I lived my life thinking that Kings and Emperors were pretty bad for the people - was my great-great-great-great grandfather, the last Emperor a good man?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:47 PM
Cris M's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niterói, Brazil
Posts: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComtedeNicolay View Post
Also, I lived my life thinking that Kings and Emperors were pretty bad for the people - was my great-great-great-great grandfather, the last Emperor a good man?
A good man? He is regarded as the best Head of State Brazil ever had. He was called "The Magnanimous" and "The Citizen Emperor". His 58 years reign is regard as the Brazilian Golden Age.

Sadly, he was deposed by a military coup d'état, meaning your great-grandmother was born in exile. The Imperial Family was only able to return to Brazil in 1945.

I think you'd like to know that your great-grandmother wrote a book about the life of her mother, The Dowager Princess Imperial of Brazil (born Princess Maria Pia of the Two-Sicilies; 1878-1973), it's called Le Temps de ma Mère in french.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:47 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,034
Princess Pia Maria of Orléans-Braganza was born 4 March 1913 and died 24 October 2000. On 11 August 1948 she married René Marie Nicolas de Nicolay, Comte de Nicolay. They had two children, Louis Jean Nicolay (born 18 September 1949) and Robert de Nicolay (born 17 February 1952). Is this the Pia Maria you're talking about?

If so, she was the only daughter and youngest child of Prince Luís of Orléans-Braganza and Princess Maria di Grazia of Bourbon-Two Sicilies. Luís was the middle son of Isabel, Princess Imperial of Brazil, who was the eldest daughter of Pedro II of Brazil. Pedro II was the last ruling monarch of Brazil and died with no surviving sons, so Isabel was his heir presumptive. Pedro was forced to abdicate and claimed the throne in pretence, when he died Isabel did the same. When Isabel died the claim was split into two ways; on the one hand there was her son, Pedro de Alcântara, who was the elder son but married unequally and had his mother declare that the marriage would not be valid dynastically for succession to the Brazillian throne. He renounced his rights for himself and his descendants, but when he died his eldest son, Pedro Gastão, claimed the throne for himself. Today his son, Pedro Carlos, is the claimant through this line, although he's not universally recognized as such. On the other hand, there is Isabel's second son, Luí, who was the recognized heir (and fathered Pia Maria). Luís was succeeded in his claim by his eldest son, Pedro Henrique, who in turn was succeeded by his elder son, Luiz, who is the current claimant (and most recognized one) through this line.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:50 PM
Cris M's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niterói, Brazil
Posts: 164
Ish, just a minor correction: Emperor Pedro II was never forced to abdicate, he was desposed.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:51 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 10
All this news is very fascinating I must say
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:53 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 10
Just reading about him now on Wikipedia and my ancestor Isabel, Princess Imperial was a proponent of the abolition of slavery in Brazil?!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:55 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 10
Found the ancestry chart - a looooot of inbreeding... They all seem to be Capetians, and most of my ancestors descend directly and exclusively in the male line from either Charles III of Spain or Emperor Francis I
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:56 PM
Cris M's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niterói, Brazil
Posts: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComtedeNicolay View Post
Just reading about him now on Wikipedia and my ancestor Isabel, Princess Imperial was a proponent of the abolition of slavery in Brazil?!
Yes, she was abolitionist. She was Regent of Brazil on May 13th, 1888, when she abolished slavery in Brazil. That was one of the reasons the Monarchy was abolished: the republicans were pro-slavery.

Also, there's currently a process of beatification of Princess Isabel.

And Princess Isabel is my avatar.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:59 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 10
Haha no way, she looks like an older version of my sister
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:01 PM
Cris M's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niterói, Brazil
Posts: 164
Here's a picture of Princess Pia Maria with her parents and brothers:

https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/...29900371_n.jpg
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:06 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 10
Wow that is very strange to me, Princess Maria di Grazia looks EXACTLY like mon père - thank you very much for all of this - jolly bewildering
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:12 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 10
But why does Prince Luís get to be the Emperor? Surely it should be decieded on amount of service performed for the Brazilian people?

Archbishop Adalberon said before crowning Hugh Capet King of the Franks, "The throne is not acquired by hereditary right; no one should be raised to it unless distinguished not only for nobility of birth, but for the goodness of his soul."
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:15 PM
Cris M's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niterói, Brazil
Posts: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComtedeNicolay View Post
But why does Prince Luís get to be the Emperor? Surely it should be decieded on amount of service performed for the Brazilian people?

Archbishop Adalberon said before crowning Hugh Capet King of the Franks, "The throne is not acquired by hereditary right; no one should be raised to it unless distinguished not only for nobility of birth, but for the goodness of his soul."
He's the rightful pretender, but His Imperial and Royal Highness has done all he could to help Brazil. He advocates for a better political system and is involved with charity. And he also has a good Christian soul.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:17 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 10
Why not make Pelé Emperor? He'd be great I reckon
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:19 PM
Cris M's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niterói, Brazil
Posts: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComtedeNicolay View Post
Why not make Pelé Emperor? He'd be great I reckon
Because Monarchy needs legitimacy. Choose a Emperor makes no sense, it would be better to stick with Republic.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can anyone help me. Im looking for photos of princess Diana at milestone house 1991 leeanne2875 Member Introductions and Updates 2 08-23-2011 09:24 PM
Help asked for from any experts out there Safari Rob Member Introductions and Updates 1 09-23-2008 05:26 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hohenzollern infanta elena infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg ottoman palace pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince felix prince floris prince frederik prince laurent prince pieter-christiaan princess princess aimee princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marie princess mary queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia spain state visit wedding william


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:53 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]