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  #1  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:02 PM
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Can anyone help me out?

My grandfather has just shown me a family tree and has been talking about his mother recently, I always knew she was Brazilian-Italian or something, but now I hear she was Princess Pia Maria of Orléans-Braganza! You can imagine my shock of learning that great grandmère 'Pima' was actually a Princess!

My patrilineal family, le famille de Nicolaÿ I already knew were nobles de l'ancien régime, but I'd never considered great grandpère René marrying into potential royalty.

Who exactly was she related to? Am I in line for any throne? Was Princess Pia Maria descended from any kings or queens?
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  #2  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:29 PM
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That's great. I'm brazilian and monarchist. Your grandmother was a Princess of Brazil and a Princess of Orleans-Braganza. And, from 1931 to 1938, she was The Princess Imperial of Brazil, meaning she was the heiress presumptive to the Headship of the Imperial House of Brazil.

And, yes, she descendend from a lot of Kings and Queens. Her paternal great-grandfather was the Emperor Pedro II of Brazil (1825-1891), the last brazilian Monarch. Being her great-grandson, you are first-cousin three times removed of the current Head of the Imperial House of Brazil, His Imperial and Royal Highness Prince Luiz.

Your grandfather is one of Princess Maria's two sons, Count Louis-Jean and Count Robert de Nicolaÿ.
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Old 06-17-2014, 04:35 PM
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Mon dieu, I would never have thought! Emperor, now that's quite the title

If she was heiress presumptive, does that put me in line to the Imperial throne? If it is a question of morganatic marriage, my great-grandfather René was a Prince of the Papal States (14th Prince Nicolay) as well as a Marquis et Count en France, je ne sais pas si cela signifie quelque chose?
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  #4  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ComtedeNicolay View Post
Mon dieu, I would never have thought! Emperor, now that's quite the title

If she was heiress presumptive, does that put me in line to the Imperial throne? If it is a question of morganatic marriage, my great-grandfather René was a Prince of the Papal States (14th Prince Nicolay) as well as a Marquis et Count en France, je ne sais pas si cela signifie quelque chose?
As far as I know, her descendants are not in line to the Throne because they do not hold brazilian citizenship, which is required.

The marriage between your great-grandparents was recognized as dynastic by your great-grandmother's brother, Prince Pedro Henrique (1909-1981), who was the Head of the Imperial House of Brazil from 1921 to 1981.
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  #5  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:41 PM
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And it's Louis Jean, je pense que son nom complet est Louis Jean Gaston Marie de Nicolaÿ, marquis de Nicolaÿ, comte de Nicolaÿ, marquis de Goussainville, etc.

My uncles are Robert et Victor, Robert est le marquis d'Ivor au présent and Victor est le comte de Cherbourg et marquis d'Osny, etc.

Also, I lived my life thinking that Kings and Emperors were pretty bad for the people - was my great-great-great-great grandfather, the last Emperor a good man?
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Old 06-17-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ComtedeNicolay View Post
Also, I lived my life thinking that Kings and Emperors were pretty bad for the people - was my great-great-great-great grandfather, the last Emperor a good man?
A good man? He is regarded as the best Head of State Brazil ever had. He was called "The Magnanimous" and "The Citizen Emperor". His 58 years reign is regard as the Brazilian Golden Age.

Sadly, he was deposed by a military coup d'état, meaning your great-grandmother was born in exile. The Imperial Family was only able to return to Brazil in 1945.

I think you'd like to know that your great-grandmother wrote a book about the life of her mother, The Dowager Princess Imperial of Brazil (born Princess Maria Pia of the Two-Sicilies; 1878-1973), it's called Le Temps de ma Mère in french.
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Old 06-17-2014, 04:47 PM
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Princess Pia Maria of Orléans-Braganza was born 4 March 1913 and died 24 October 2000. On 11 August 1948 she married René Marie Nicolas de Nicolay, Comte de Nicolay. They had two children, Louis Jean Nicolay (born 18 September 1949) and Robert de Nicolay (born 17 February 1952). Is this the Pia Maria you're talking about?

If so, she was the only daughter and youngest child of Prince Luís of Orléans-Braganza and Princess Maria di Grazia of Bourbon-Two Sicilies. Luís was the middle son of Isabel, Princess Imperial of Brazil, who was the eldest daughter of Pedro II of Brazil. Pedro II was the last ruling monarch of Brazil and died with no surviving sons, so Isabel was his heir presumptive. Pedro was forced to abdicate and claimed the throne in pretence, when he died Isabel did the same. When Isabel died the claim was split into two ways; on the one hand there was her son, Pedro de Alcântara, who was the elder son but married unequally and had his mother declare that the marriage would not be valid dynastically for succession to the Brazillian throne. He renounced his rights for himself and his descendants, but when he died his eldest son, Pedro Gastão, claimed the throne for himself. Today his son, Pedro Carlos, is the claimant through this line, although he's not universally recognized as such. On the other hand, there is Isabel's second son, Luí, who was the recognized heir (and fathered Pia Maria). Luís was succeeded in his claim by his eldest son, Pedro Henrique, who in turn was succeeded by his elder son, Luiz, who is the current claimant (and most recognized one) through this line.
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Old 06-17-2014, 04:50 PM
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Ish, just a minor correction: Emperor Pedro II was never forced to abdicate, he was desposed.
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  #9  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:51 PM
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All this news is very fascinating I must say
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Old 06-17-2014, 04:53 PM
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Just reading about him now on Wikipedia and my ancestor Isabel, Princess Imperial was a proponent of the abolition of slavery in Brazil?!
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  #11  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:55 PM
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Found the ancestry chart - a looooot of inbreeding... They all seem to be Capetians, and most of my ancestors descend directly and exclusively in the male line from either Charles III of Spain or Emperor Francis I
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  #12  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ComtedeNicolay View Post
Just reading about him now on Wikipedia and my ancestor Isabel, Princess Imperial was a proponent of the abolition of slavery in Brazil?!
Yes, she was abolitionist. She was Regent of Brazil on May 13th, 1888, when she abolished slavery in Brazil. That was one of the reasons the Monarchy was abolished: the republicans were pro-slavery.

Also, there's currently a process of beatification of Princess Isabel.

And Princess Isabel is my avatar.
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  #13  
Old 06-17-2014, 04:59 PM
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Haha no way, she looks like an older version of my sister
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  #14  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:01 PM
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Here's a picture of Princess Pia Maria with her parents and brothers:

https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/...29900371_n.jpg
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  #15  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:06 PM
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Wow that is very strange to me, Princess Maria di Grazia looks EXACTLY like mon père - thank you very much for all of this - jolly bewildering
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  #16  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:12 PM
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But why does Prince Luís get to be the Emperor? Surely it should be decieded on amount of service performed for the Brazilian people?

Archbishop Adalberon said before crowning Hugh Capet King of the Franks, "The throne is not acquired by hereditary right; no one should be raised to it unless distinguished not only for nobility of birth, but for the goodness of his soul."
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Old 06-17-2014, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ComtedeNicolay View Post
But why does Prince Luís get to be the Emperor? Surely it should be decieded on amount of service performed for the Brazilian people?

Archbishop Adalberon said before crowning Hugh Capet King of the Franks, "The throne is not acquired by hereditary right; no one should be raised to it unless distinguished not only for nobility of birth, but for the goodness of his soul."
He's the rightful pretender, but His Imperial and Royal Highness has done all he could to help Brazil. He advocates for a better political system and is involved with charity. And he also has a good Christian soul.
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  #18  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:17 PM
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Why not make Pelé Emperor? He'd be great I reckon
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  #19  
Old 06-17-2014, 05:19 PM
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Why not make Pelé Emperor? He'd be great I reckon
Because Monarchy needs legitimacy. Choose a Emperor makes no sense, it would be better to stick with Republic.
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