Brazilian Marriage Rules & Musings


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Apart from finding a suitable (equal) partner now, these families need to also think about the future.. if the only really suitable partner is a cousin, the children from the relationship will have no choice left :)

Historically speaking for catholics, for marriage between relatives a dispensation is needed, this used to be for relations up to fourth degree and both blood as 'spiritually' related (meaning that this also is for 'step families' or for instance a widower marrying a relative of the deceased wive)
 
That is the first time that I have seen a reference to something that happened at times over 500 years ago as 'newer'...
Take an anthropology or archaeology class - then anything less than 1000 years old is definitely new.

As to whether or not marrying commoners is new in the BRF (in terms of contemporary versus not), while precious monarchs have of course married women without princely titles, most did marry women who were the daughters of people who held titles. Until William, the only notable member of the historic BRF that I can think of having married someone not related to or descended from anyone with title is John of Gaunt, who of course married his mistress.

King John's first wife was a Countess and the daughter of an Earl. Her paternal grandfather was an illegitimate son of Henry I.

Elizabeth Woodville's maternal grandfather was the Count of St. Pol, Conversano, and Brienne. Her father was pretty self-made, but he was eventually granted an Earldom.

Richard III married the daughter of a Countess (in her own right). Her father, who became an Earl through his marriage, was the son of another Earl.

Henry VIII married in order a Spanish princess, the daughter of an Earl (and the granddaughter of a Duke), the daughter of a member of the gentry (I'll agree to call her a commoner), the daughter of the Duke of Cleves, the granddaughter of a Duke (through a younger son), and another daughter of a member of the gentry (her grandfather was a Baron). So, really 2 out of 6 were not of the aristocracy, and even then I'd question how not aristocratic they were.

Jane married the son of a Duke.

Mary, Queen of Scots married the son of a king then two sons of Earls - while I would agree that she definitely took several steps downwards, I wouldn't say that Henry Stuart or James Hepburn weren't of the aristocracy. Henry Stuart was his father's heir apparent until his death, and James Hepburn inherited his father's title.

James II married first the daughter of an Earl.

Pretty much none of these royal consorts were without aristocratic or royal pedigree, something which Catherine cannot claim. Sure, if this was 500 years ago (or even more recently) her family most likely would have been of the gentry owing to their economic class, but they aren't, and that does set her apart - the closest equal she has is Katherine Swynford.
 
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With the exception of John's first wife who was a Countess in her own right the others were all commoners - no different to Kate - a commoner.

Daughters of aristocrats are still commoners - and so it isn't a 'new thing' for the British monarchy to marry commoners but has happened fairly regularly over the last 500+ years.

I have taken archaeology classes and nothing was ever said about 1000 years being new - new was classed as modern i.e. the 20th C and every pre 1901 was old and subdivided into early modern, medieval, ancient, preshistoric and that period was subdivided (I have a double major in history and a minor in archaeology in my BA and then an MA in History).

I also teach Archaeology as part of the Ancient History course I teach.
 
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Bertie I'm not going to argue with you over a technicality. If you want to say that a king marrying the daughter of a duke or an earl is the same as William marrying a girl from a family with no aristocratic or royal pedigree, so be it. I don't see it that way, and that was the point that I was trying to make.

As for my comment regarding the archaeology course, it was a joke. I have taken courses that focus on periods of time so long ago that anything less than a million years is considered new. I've also seen courses that refer to something that happened 500 years ago as being modern. New is all relative to what your overall focus is. Sorry, I should have made myself clearer in explaining that I wasn't being serious there.
 
Ish, you make the point that I should have made, regarding inbreeding. The danger lies in the amount and frequency of lines crossing. Bertie and others have pointed out that almost all British royals have married people who had direct genetic lines to royals OR who have repeatedly married their own kin and married into the royal houses. The genes do not care at all how high in title the marriage partner had, all they care about is that the gene was present in the marriage partner.

In my own family, although not able to trace all the lines, due to being a commoner whose family were not even slightly interested in this problem, I studied the history of inbreeding in the Maxwell family. The Maxwells are considered to be the "same family" as my family, because of the high number of cross breeding instances. Within the Maxwell family, it was the deplorable custom to marry first cousins in order to keep land in the family. This often resulted in divorces based on having committed the breach of law called "consanguine marriage", a term for marrying cousins. The cousin whom a Maxwell man married was sometimes cast aside as soon as the landed heir was produced. The only object was producing an heir who could keep or enlarge the land holdings.

Today there are many fine Maxwells around--presumably they no longer behave in this way. And many fine Pollocks, as I illustrated above in my account of my Aunt Jessie's family. For most of these, the inbreeding menace is past, not even known to exist. For me....I caught the brass ring, definitely brass rather than gold. But I will say this, catching this ring made me much more aware of what goes on in the world and opened to me a field of history that I otherwise would have ignored as irrelevant. Before I knew the history of the Pollock family, or even its modern members, I was more interested in the Irish side (mother's) of my family and the English side which married the Pollock l/4. The English side was the side who lived in a castle, although they were just gentlemen farmers.

since the question came up, I should look at the family of Prince Albert, Victoria's husband, to see who married whom.

Brazilian, you surely know your history, to know that very distant ancestor of both Rafael and Alexandra had porphyria. I would never have known that. Goodness me! It is also important to realize that porph comes in varying degrees of severity, and affects people in different ways, depending on which nerves are attacked.
 
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Apart from finding a suitable (equal) partner now, these families need to also think about the future.. if the only really suitable partner is a cousin, the children from the relationship will have no choice left :)

Everyone in the Gotha are cousins.:ROFLMAO:

Historically speaking for catholics, for marriage between relatives a dispensation is needed, this used to be for relations up to fourth degree and both blood as 'spiritually' related (meaning that this also is for 'step families' or for instance a widower marrying a relative of the deceased wive)Everyone in the Gotha are cousins.

Is the dispensation still required? I know very little about Canon Law.
 
....So can Cousin Jenny validly marry Cousin Mike? Not according to canon 1091.2, which says marriages are invalid up to and including the fourth degree. First cousins, therefore, cannot marry in the Church......

But as for two first cousins… the Church’s position is that they are forbidden to marry only by ecclesiastical law, not by divine law. For this reason it is canonically possible to receive a dispensation that permits two first-cousins to marry validly in the Catholic Church. (This assumes, of course, that it is legal under civil law in the area where the marriage is to take place—and in the U.S., some states permit it, while others don’t.)
Can Cousins Marry in the Church?


LaRae
 
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There is a similar thread about Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia.

So, I was thinking: what about a dynastic union between the Grand Duke and Princess Amélia of Brazil?

I know he's Orthodox and she's Catholic, but her relative, Princess Maria da Glória of Orleans-Braganza married Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia, an Orthodox.
 
They divorced citing religious and cultural incompatibility.
I prefer to see Princess Amélia marrying a Catholic Prince. A Wittelsbach would be an excelent option.
 
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Well, maybe will work for Grand Duke George and Princess Amélia.

Or maybe Princess Amélia will not repeat Princess Maria da Glória's mistake.

But I can picture Her Royal Highness as Grand Duchess Amélia of Russia.
 
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Yes, I have to agree. I would make the following matches with the young Brazilian Dynasts:

- Prince Rafael of Brazil (b. 1986) and Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg (b. 1991).

- Princess Amélia of Brazil (b. 1984) and Prince Ludwig of Bavaria (b. 1982).

- Princess Maria Gabriela of Brazil (b. 1989) and Prince Josef-Emanuel of Lichtenstein (b. 1989).

- Prince Henri Antoine (b. 1989), Hereditary Prince of Ligne, and Princess Maria Laura of Belgium (b. 1988), Archduchess of Austria-Este.

- Princess Alix of Ligne (b. 1984) and Prince Amedeo of Belgium (b. 1986), Archduke of Austria-Este.
 
Great matches, Helena, I would be very happy to see all those weddings.
 
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Nice choices, Helena.

I remember to have read some time ago in the Prince Amedeo thread that he was indeed rumoured to be dating Princess Alix of Ligne. People were discussing whether it was true or just a rumour, I don't remember what we concluded after all.
 
The two are very beautiful young people, and Alix's parents are close to Amedeo's parents.
Prince Amedeo and Princess Maria Laura attended the mass in Beloeil after Prince Pedro Luiz's death, in 2009.
 
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Very beautiful indeed.

Are you aware whether the rumours are true or not?
 
No. They are both very discreet. But I never heard about Stéphanie of Lannoy before the engagement, so, there's no reason to not believe that Alix and Amedeo are together, just because they aren't making the headlines.
 
As in Alix, do you mean Alexandra of Luxembourg?
 
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No. They are both very discreet. But I never heard about Stéphanie of Lannoy before the engagement, so, there's no reason to not believe that Alix and Amedeo are together, just because they aren't making the headlines.

You're right, they are both very discreet, so we'll probably never know unless they get married and we got to know it at the day of the engagement announcement like Guillaume and Stéphanie.

I think the rumour was spread by a belgium magazine around October last year and at the time of Guillaume&Stéphanie's wedding they left together, which obviously can mean nothing since they definetely know each other and likely are friends.

From post 224 I take it they are talking of Princes Alix of Ligne?

Yes, we're talking about Princess Alix of Ligne. She's the daughter of Michel, Prince of Ligne, who is from Belgium, and Eleonora of Orleans-Bragança, who is brazilian.
 
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We were talking about Her Highness Princess Alix of Ligne, born in Brussels, on June 3, 1984. She is the eldest child, and only daughter, of Michel, 14th Prince of Ligne, and Eleonora, Princess of Ligne (née Princess of Brazil).

As Her Highness was registred as a Brazilian citizen, she's the 10th in line to the Brazilian Throne. Princess Alix is an engineer, she's currently living and working in Brazil.

Princess Alix - http://www.noblesseetroyautes.com/nr01/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/alix1.jpg

I think the rumour was spread by a belgium magazine around October last year...
I believe it's very possible they're together.
They know each other since childhood, their families are close. He's an Austrian Archduke, and she's a Brazilian Dynasts, both very traditional families, who praises Dynastic Marriages.

Alix is now living in Rio de Janeiro, and Amedeo is living in NY. If they are together, we'll probably have to wait a bit more to see they marrying.
 
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Hi Brazilian empire,

Can you share the info mentioning that Alix is now living in Rio de Janeiro? Well couple of weeks ago, out of my curiosity, when I checked on my long forgotten job networking sites, I typed her name and found her profile. In there it's written that she is currently living and working in Paris? I just want to know which one is the right info. :) thanks heaps
 
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This Amadeo looks pretty handsome. I have not seen a picture of Alix. I hope happiness comes their way.

Some pictures of Princess Alix, Mariel -

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/56904/1620315-princess_alix_of_ligne.jpg

http://www.noblesseetroyautes.com/nr01/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/alix1.jpg

http://www.revistaversatille.com.br/wp-content/uploads/Alix-De-Ligne-IMG_9876-25-e1346781088443.jpg

With her brother, the Hereditary Prince of Ligne, and their parents, the Prince and Princess of Ligne - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LFs2QJZZZkM/SIuHlDzog6I/AAAAAAAAAfc/bNhE7gCrBy0/s400/Ligne.jpg
 
Marrying a Leichtensteiner Wittelsbach into the Brazilian royal family would be a coup if one cares about the descent of the Stuart line through Sophie of Leichtenstein. You know, of course, Brazilian, since you know all of these things, that Sophie's son was even born in England. And her mother was born in Sweden of a family who are supposedly Scottish for generations and traditional "aides" of the Swedish royal family (so I read, do not know if true). Sophie's son Joseph thus will be a Stuart descended claimant to the British throne. I have read that the Leichtensteiners do not concern themselves with such claims, but they are made for them by others who care, indeed care a lot. I do not know Amelia's age but probably too old for Prince Joseph? I think he's still at teenager but have not been following. I used to be on a site for Queen Marie Stuart and heard all about it, but that was long ago. I could not stand the nit picking over who was really descended from Marie Stuart. That site cared nothing at all, either, for the fact that Marie Stuart probably had porphyria, very well described in some readings I've done, and of course descended to her from Tudors as well as Stuarts. Everyone ignores this problem, but it IS a problem if it messes with your mind, which it can do. It can make a person like Marie Stuart not so much "insane"--no, not at all--but flighty, given to emotional weakness, and easily manipulated by more down to earth courtiers. Poor Marie. She had a handicap which made her no match for QEI, or any other wily courtiers.
 
Marrying a Leichtensteiner Wittelsbach

Oh, Mariel, I think you got confused. The Princely Family of Liechtenstein is the House of Liechtenstein, the Wittelsbachs are the Royal Family who ruled Bavaria (now, part of Germany).

You know, of course, Brazilian, since you know all of these things, that Sophie's son was even born in England.

Thank you, Mariel, I feel flattered. :flowers:

I do not know Amelia's age but probably too old for Prince Joseph? I think he's still at teenager but have not been following.

Oh, yes, Princesses Amélia and Maria Gabriela are too old to marry Prince Joseph-Wenzel. Princess Amélia is 29, and Princess Maria Gabriela is 24.

We think the most suitable husband for Princess Amélia is Prince Ludwig of Bavaria (b. 1982).

Princess Amélia's paternal grandmother was Princess Maria Elizabeth of Bavaria (1914-2011), whose brother, Prince Ludwig (1913-2008) is Prince Ludwig's grandfather. So, Princess Amélia and Prince Ludwig are second cousins. They already know each other, as the Families are close.

Prince Ludwig - http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wittelsbach/bavariakings3/1982 Ludwig.JPG

And a video of him - Prince Ludwig of Bavaria Visits - YouTube

The Liechtensteiner Prince that we think is suitable for Princess Maria Gabriela is Prince Josef-Emanuel (b. 1989). He's the son of Prince Nikolaus and Princess Margaretha (née Princess of Luxembourg). Princess Margaretha is Princess Cristina's (Princess Maria Gabriela's mother) first cousin, and they are very close since childhood.

Prince Josef-Emanuel - http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-D13nsCoLOvk/TcXOyhNvqYI/AAAAAAAAGic/cGdTrnCSOcs/s1600/liech1.jpg
 
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Prince Ludwig seems to be a very serious guy, and he's quite handsome. A Prince Josef-Emanuel is also very handsome. Princesses Amélia and Maria Gabriela are very beautiful. They would form beautiful couples.

Oh, I would love if Princess Alix marry Prince Amedeo. They would be the most beautiful couple ever!
I wonder about their children's nationality. They'll be Belgians, Brasilians or Austrians? And what about titles?

I made this photomontage for Alix and Amedeo!
 

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Well, Princess Alix is Brazilian, that's why she's in line to succeed to the Brazilian Throne. Although Archduke Amedeo is a Prince of Belgium, I don't think his children will receive this title, they will probably be only Archdukes/Archduchesses of Austria-Este.

As Amedeo is Austrian (according with Wikipedia, maybe it's wrong), I believe it's necessary to be an Austrian citizen is order to have succession rights to the Austrian Throne, so, their children will probably be Austrians.

But the line of succession to the Austrian Throne is regulated by Salic Law, wich means that their daughters (if they have any) will not have Austrian succession rights. So, their daughters can be registred as Brazilians, in order to have rights to the Brazilian Throne.

As Amedeo is Austrian and have rights to succeed to the Belgian Throne, I belive Belgiam nationality isn't required to succeed to the Belgian Throne (again, this can be wrong, because Wikipedia can give wrong information).

So, a possible scenario:

- Sons: Austrians citizens, in the Line of Succession to the Austrian Throne.
- Daughters: Brazilian citizens, in the Line of Succession to the Brazilian Throne.
- All their children will be in the Line of Succession to the Belgian Throne.
 
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Brazillian, I think I'm right about the descent of Sophie of Liechtenstein. She is, yes, a Princess in Bavaria. Her father Max is heir to the present Duke in Bavaria, Franz, who has no children. Max has five daughters, Sophie being the eldest. She is therefore, by some people's calculations, the direct heir to the Royal Stuarts (there are other candidates, but she has an unimpeachable descent). She is, of course married to Duke Alois of Leichtenstein. Her son Joseph Wenzel is the direct heir of the Stuart throne on her line. Presently the Stuart afficianados who like this line think of Duke Franz as the rightful King of England. By their reckoning, Joseph Wenzel will someday be the King of England (not actually but de juris--I hope I have that term right). So the Wittelsbachs carry the descent of the Royal Stuarts, for those who follow this line. Sophie has three sons and one daughter, I believe. Princelings for Catholic princesses?
 
Yes, you're right. But only the Wittelsbachs from Duke Max's branch of the Family are in the "Jacobite Line of Succession". Prince Ludwig aren't from this branch.
 
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