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  #141  
Old 04-23-2013, 08:10 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
A very interesting topic. Fascinating that these expectations exist in the 21st Century, but hey, different strokes for different folks.
Finally, not a xenophobic opinion. Thank you, Gracie.
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
The marriage, of course, would be semi-arranged...
Maybe arranged marriage isn't the best suited term.
But, of course, Prince Rafael has to pick a wife from a very select group. The selection will certainly be arranged, but not the marriage.

And love can move all the barriers. Here is an interview Prince Rafael's mother, Princess Cristina (née Princess of Ligne) gave to a Belgian magazine. Her Royal Highness talked about her marriage with Prince Antônio. It's safe to assume that Prince Rafael's marriage will be a similar situation. The interview is in French, but you can use Google to translate. http://www.eventail.be/detail_sections.php5?i=1569
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
...I hope he finds his "suitable bride" and they fall in love and live happily ever after, with loads of children who follow in their footsteps.
Amen!
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Finding a princess who is prepared to go through an arranged marriage - which fell out of favour in Europe 100 years ago - could be difficult...
The lives of Marie-Astrid and Margaretha of Luxembourg, Cristina of Ligne, Eleonora of Brazil, Sophie of Isenburg and so many other Princesses can easily prove your sentence wrong. All of them marry equally, in some cases with Princes of non-reigning Houses, two of them had to move to another continent, and they are all happily married with a bunch of children.
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  #142  
Old 04-23-2013, 09:50 PM
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It is absolutely unsafe for closely related people to marry, because of hidden genetic flaws which may emerge. So marriage with Alexandra of Luxembourg is frightening.
if he has to have an authentic princess, there are Mako and Kako in Japan. Very well bred young ladies!
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  #143  
Old 04-23-2013, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
The lives of Marie-Astrid and Margaretha of Luxembourg, Cristina of Ligne, Eleonora of Brazil, Sophie of Isenburg and so many other Princesses can easily prove your sentence wrong.

All of them marry equally, in some cases with Princes of non-reigning Houses, two of them had to move to another continent, and they are all happily married with a bunch of children.

Married equally - for love or for arrangement.


Arranged marriages are what fell out of favour in the early 20th century.

Marriages for love are what became the norm for royal princesses and they would expect nothing less in this day and age.

A love match would work if the bride had to move to another continent - e.g. Princess Mary of Denmark but an arranged marriage in this day and age would add a stress to the existing unease about the marriage.
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  #144  
Old 04-23-2013, 11:26 PM
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Agreed! Arranged marriages are so much a thing of the past! Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there is one here and there, but I can't see Henri and Maria-Theresa of Luxembourg forcing or even suggesting that their daughter marry someone just because he is a prince. I could see them suggesting that she marry fir love and telling her to follow her heart, but not forcing her or telling her to acceptance arranged marriage!

Alexandra of Luxembourg will likely marry for love -if the prince wants to marry her, I would hope that his intentions are more than just a title as hunting a princess for marriage in this day and age just doesn't work. Perhaps in a country where it is tradition -Luxembourg is not a country of tradition like that anymore. Henri and Maria-Theresa ended that, and I don't see their children excepting anything less than what they have.

Just a few honest thoughts that are not meant to be rude in anyway -please don't take it as such.
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  #145  
Old 04-24-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
...Arranged marriages are what fell out of favour in the early 20th century...
No one here ever suggested that Prince Rafael should have an arranged marriage.
You know, it's possible to marry equally and for love. History is full of fine examples of that.
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Originally Posted by USCtrojan View Post
...Arranged marriages are so much a thing of the past!
No one ever suggested to force Prince Rafael to marry Princess Alexandra. The only thing it was said is that she's the most suitable bride for him. I'm pretty sure that both Highnesses will marry for love.
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Originally Posted by Mariel View Post
...there are Mako and Kako in Japan. Very well bred young ladies!
Prince Rafael has to marry a Catholic Princess, so, one of the Akishino Princesses are out of question, unless she converts.
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  #146  
Old 04-24-2013, 09:26 PM
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...if he has to have an authentic princess, there are Mako and Kako in Japan. Very well bred young ladies!
I think this idea is adorable! We have a lot of Japanese imimgrants here in Brazil that would go ecstatic if it ever happens.
Our people has no (little) problem in embracing people of other ethnicities and this eventual marriage would bring - as a side effect - a lot of good publicity.
The Japanese princesses are indeed very well bred traditional ladies and quite cute also.
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  #147  
Old 04-25-2013, 10:04 AM
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^^ But it has the religion problem, the japanese princesses are not catholic. Would they be willing to convert? We don't know.
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  #148  
Old 04-25-2013, 09:11 PM
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Would they be willing to convert? We don't know.
I doubt they will.
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  #149  
Old 04-25-2013, 09:46 PM
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I found a interview were Princess Maria Gabriela (Prince Rafael's younger sister) said she also intends to marry equally.

The interview, in portuguese: http://www.monarquia.org.br/PDFs/HP-27-WEB.pdf
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  #150  
Old 04-25-2013, 09:59 PM
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Good girl.
Prince Antônio and Princess Cristina are excellent parents. Their children know how to behave as members of the Brazilian Imperial Family.
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Originally Posted by Mariel View Post
...If he has to have an authentic princess, there are Mako and Kako in Japan.
I like the Japanese Princesses, but they aren't fit for an ocidental Imperial House. Prince Rafael will be better married with a European Princess, from a Catholic House.
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  #151  
Old 04-25-2013, 10:27 PM
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Assuming any princess would have him - it seems as if some people just assume that the limited pool of princesses (and I assume a 'princess' like Beatrice wouldn't be included as she is from an unequal marriage and so wouldn't qualify) actually falls in love with him or a prince as well.

I am aware that Beatrice would be out on religious grounds but if there is such a thing as 'equal' marriage than if there is any non-royal ancestor then that person is out as well.
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  #152  
Old 04-25-2013, 10:37 PM
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In fact there's no such a thing like sixteen royal ancestors required. The bride just has to be a Princess from a Imperial/Royal/Princely House.

For example, the Brazilian Monarchists regard Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg as the suitable wife for Prince Rafael, regardless of Grand Duchess Maria Teresa been a commoner by birth.

Princess Beatrice of York would be rejected in the grounds that she isn't a Catholic, not because her mother isn't a Royal by birth.
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  #153  
Old 04-25-2013, 10:51 PM
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So actually they don't require an 'equal' marriage as the girl can be the product of an unequal marriage - hardly fair is it?

Surely if they are so hung up on equal marriage then they should be insisting that the princess is herself from an equal marriage -- and the one you mention isn't so that should rule her out.

If it is good enough for the parents of the bride to have an unequal marriage then why should he be so limited in choice that he can overlook her less than equal birth?
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  #154  
Old 04-25-2013, 11:21 PM
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Bertie, you're trying to make sense in something that doesn't make sense. Why is the heir to a throne that no longer exists required to make an "equal" marriage in any definition of the word? Are there any European monarchies still reigning that require such a thing?
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  #155  
Old 04-25-2013, 11:21 PM
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Brazilian, I appeal to you on behalf of Mako and Kako. These girls face a bleak future if a prince does not rescue them. Like their aunt, the sister of the present crown prince, they have to give up their titles unless they marry another person of royal blood. And they have to leave the imperial household, although it is reported that the empress and emperor visit their daughter and her commoner husband. There is discussion of changing the law so that princesses in Japan will be able to remain part of the imperial household--their family--if they marry this way, but so far that is but a dream.
I can see Mako or Kako converting to Christianity, and Catholicism is part of the Christian faith. Their grandma Empress Michiko was educated in a Catholic convent for rich social girls, which in the USA we call the Ladies of the Sacred Heart (I have known several of these very well educated sisters, in classes at Stanford and elsewhere). Michiko remained Buddhist, probably out of tradition, although the emperor is Shinto (forgive me, I don't know how these things co-exist if they do). But these grandaughters of the Emperor are really in NEED of a princely rescue and would be grateful to be rescued, if they loved the Brazilian. They are well educated and could learn Portuguese, as well as the Catholic catechism. I know it's a way out suggestion, but it is not acceptable to me to contemplate a marriage between an Orleans-Braganza heir and a cousin, unless possibly she happens to be a very distant cousin. I know the results of inbreeding in royal families and you should educate yourself on this too. It's a voluminous subject. Someone said Alexandra had five lines of descent same as the Brazilian prince.
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  #156  
Old 04-25-2013, 11:31 PM
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Bertie, you're trying to make sense in something that doesn't make sense. Why is the heir to a throne that no longer exists required to make an "equal" marriage in any definition of the word? Are there any European monarchies still reigning that require such a thing?

No - probably one of the reasons why they are still reigning - they have been prepared to let non-royals in and see no issue with that meaning that they have avoided a lot of the inbreeding that results from a narrow marriage base.

The British royal families have had commoners marrying kings for centuries e.g. Edward IV, Henry VIII, James II, George VI, Charles and William. Most have done so since WWII as well - simply because they believe in marriage for love is more important than marrying someone due to who their mother/father is.
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  #157  
Old 04-26-2013, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post

No - probably one of the reasons why they are still reigning - they have been prepared to let non-royals in and see no issue with that meaning that they have avoided a lot of the inbreeding that results from a narrow marriage base.

The British royal families have had commoners marrying kings for centuries e.g. Edward IV, Henry VIII, James II, George VI, Charles and William. Most have done so since WWII as well - simply because they believe in marriage for love is more important than marrying someone due to who their mother/father is.
Exactly. The whole concept of "marrying equally" is rubbish, and I'm inclined to think the families who buy into it are hopeless snobs. Who are these young people being raised to believe in something so hopelessly archaic?
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  #158  
Old 04-26-2013, 12:26 AM
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I remember that there was some criticism of Queen Victoria in allowing her daughter to marry a Battenburg Prince because even though he was a prince in the eyes of those who believed in 'equal marriages' at the time having the title of 'prince' didn't make the marriage equal as his parents weren't both of the same standing. The European royals of the day took 'equal marriages' very seriously and once a royal had contracted an unequal marriage their descendents were forever classed as not up to the full royal standard.

It seems that the definition of an 'equal marriage' for the former Brazilian royal family is more associated with marrying a title rather than actually an equal marriage at all.
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  #159  
Old 04-26-2013, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
So actually they don't require an 'equal' marriage as the girl can be the product of an unequal marriage - hardly fair is it?

Surely if they are so hung up on equal marriage then they should be insisting that the princess is herself from an equal marriage -- and the one you mention isn't so that should rule her out.

If it is good enough for the parents of the bride to have an unequal marriage then why should he be so limited in choice that he can overlook her less than equal birth?
She has to be a Princess, raised with the same values of Prince Rafael, and prepared to serve her country (her new country, Brazil).

The Head of the Imperial House explain this very well at this video:



I translated the part where he talks about equal marriages for you:

"I'm single. Every Prince is educated to act not so much due his interests, but due to the Nation's interests. If he marries someone who wasn't educated in the same way, that can bring complications, mistakes and lots of problems. And for the good of the country, we have to marry with members of other Royal Houses".

In my opinion, Prince Luiz admitted he wasn't able to find a Princess to marry.

On other hand, Prince Bertand has said that he never married because he decided to devote his life only to the Monarchist Cause in Brazil.
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  #160  
Old 04-26-2013, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Bertie, you're trying to make sense in something that doesn't make sense. Why is the heir to a throne that no longer exists required to make an "equal" marriage in any definition of the word?
Excuse me, but that make sense for the majority of the Brazilian Monarchists, and even people who aren't Monarchist admire the ability the Imperial Family had in keeping with their tradition. And I think those traditions only have to make sense for us, Brazilians.

The Imperial Family lose their Throne in a Military Coup, they were forced to live the country, only been able to return after 50 years in exile.

Without their traditions, they aren't different from their non-Dynastic cousins, who, at times, try to claim the Throne for them.
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