Brazilian Marriage Rules & Musings

[BrazilianEmpire]

I don't think it's ridiculous.
And Prince Pedro de Alcântara was not forced to renouce.

Correction - He do not have another twelve brothers and sisters. He has another seven brothers and sisters.
.

 

[cmbruno]

First, the situation I find ridiculous is not accepting a royal to marry a non royal.
Secondly, if Prince Pedro de Alcântara was not forced by Princess Izabel to renounce because he married a non royal, why do you think he did it? Do you think Princess Izabel did not force him? If you have any information about it that the majority of Brazilians don't know, I think it would be very enlighting to know what really lead him to renounce.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Princess Isabel ASKED him to renounce. He was not forced. And yes, it was because the bride was not from royal birth.
He could simply have said: "No, mom, I'll not renounce."

There is a good article about that. A (Inexistente) Questão Dinástica (LEIAM)
.

 

[cmbruno]

When an Emperor (or Empress de jure) asks, it's an order, for a loving honorable son or a loving honorable subject. By the way, I did not say she forced her son to resign,I said she MADE him resign.
It really doesn't matter if Princess Izabel asked or ordered him to renounce. He did it, end of the story. The now called Vassouras branch has had since then the succession rights and so far have been coherent to the traditions of the royal family. So, IMO it would be hypocritical if he marries "bellow" and continues to be in line for succession (which is completly against what the current head of the family defends - see how D. Gastão's other brothers had to renounce their rights also).
Anyway, his situation is a little bit like the Russian heir's.
The more the time passes, the less chances there is going to be an Emperor-King in Brazil. The only thing that has to be done to not decrease (because there is hardly anything to do to increase) the chances of inheriting an eventual throne is to stick to tradition. It is all every deposed dynasties have.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

He could have said no to her, even though she was the Head of the Imperial House and Empress de jure. And Princess Isabel would not have any power against him. Equal marriages were never mentioned in the Imperial Constitution, and only a heiress apparent would be required to seek the Head of the Imperial Family's consent to marry. People have to start to accept that the Prince's renounce was made on his own will, just like the subsequent renounce in the Imperial Family, none of them were forced.

And the Princes are right in keeping with tradition, marriage between Royalty and commoners always brings a lot of risks.

 

[cmbruno]

"He could have said no to her, even though she was the Head of the Imperial House and Empress de jure. And Princess Isabel would not have any power against him. Equal marriages were never mentioned in the Imperial Constitution"
Yes, D. Pedro could have said no, nobody put a gun on his head. But all he had at that point was his family that had been through more than enough traumatizing events. He was a man with honor and pride and complied with his mother's wishes. Who knows what could have happenned if he had not renounced? Was it possible for Izabel to disinherit him? Anyways, the strong willed, egoistic and bolder are usually the ones who have been able to keep or conquer thornes, disregarding other people's well beeing. D. Pedro had an example in his grandfather, D. Pedro II who gave up fighting for his throne to avoid blood in his hands. The Brazilian Royals have always appreciated the "beau gest".

"And the Princes are right in keeping with tradition, marriage between Royalty and commoners always brings a lot of risks."
I think following tradition is the only way for a deposed royal house to survive; particularly in the case of the Brazilian royal family regarding equal marriage due to all those events relating to this that have been happening till the current generation. On the other hand, humankind has evolved and is not as biased as it was 200 years ago - Thank God!

 

[USCtrojan]

...I think following tradition is the only way for a deposed royal house to survive...

Royals are just as risky as commoners! I have yet to see any issues Mary, Maxima, Daniel, Matte-Marit, Katherine, etc. there are several royals who have caused a stink in their life times and many that do so today.

Divorce rates among Roy's are pretty high, and common marriages between royals and "risky" people are about the same.

So I find it hard to agree with you here. I do agree that to assist the imperial house perhaps he should marry blue blood -but perhaps if he falls for a commoner he should marry her instead!

 

[cmbruno]

Dear UStrojan
Just to clarify, what I posted in italic is what Brazilian Empire wrote in his-her previous post.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

The Isenburg Princely Family is Catholic or Protestant?

 

[Stefan]

The Isenburg Princely Family is Catholic or Protestant?

The Princely Family of Isenburg is catholic and the Princely Family of Ysenburg and Büdingen is protestant.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Interesting. And the Isenburgs have any unmarried Princesses hanging between 33 and 18?

 

[Marc23]

Interesting. And the Isenburgs have any unmarried Princesses hanging between 33 and 18?

Yes,so far there is Princess Marie-Christine von Isenburg who is 31...

There are also 2 more unmarried ones,Maria Stephanie(1969) and Catherine(1976),but they obviously do not fit the range...

 

[MAfan]

And from the Isenburg und Büdingen branch there are also Princess Felizitas (b. 1980) and her cousin Princess Dorothea (b. 1986).

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Thanks a lot.

We are looking for potential wives for Prince Rafael of Brazil (b. 1986).

 

[Stefan]

And from the Isenburg und Büdingen branch there are also Princess Felizitas (b. 1980) and her cousin Princess Dorothea (b. 1986).

But they are protestant so i don't think they fit in for what Brazilien Empire is looking.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

But they are protestant so i don't think they fit in for what Brazilien Empire is looking.

Yes, the Princess must be a Catholic in order to marry Prince Rafael.

 

[NGalitzine]

Thanks a lot.

We are looking for potential wives for Prince Rafael of Brazil (b. 1986).

Is he having such a hard time on his own finding dates that a committee needs to look for one for him?

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Is he having such a hard time on his own finding dates that a committee needs to look for one for him?

We are just looking around, to see who is suitable for His Royal Highness.

 

[Warren]

Is His Royal Highness aware of the matchmaking efforts being made on his behalf as people thumb through their copies of the Almanach de Gotha, earmarking who they consider to be a suitable match?
After the reconnaisance, what then? A shortlist of candidates from which he is asked (or told) to "pick one"?

If he is interested in finding a royal bride, he will likely spend more time in Europe. But then, I suppose there's always Skype...

 

[Ish]

How is discussing potential wives for Prince Rafael of Brazil any different from discussing potential wives for Prince Harry of Wales?

The discussion for Harry has its own thread that so far has gathered more than 1,000 posts.

 

[Warren]

A matter of intent. The House rules of the Brazilian Imperial Family require the heir to the Headship to marry "equally". Therefore the search for a suitable royal bride is, to Brazilian monarchists, a serious business.

Members gossiping and speculating about "a wife for Harry" aren't invested in the outcome to the same extent and the discussion is therefore lighthearted. Harry can marry a woman of whatever social standing he chooses; he is not constrained in his choice to the extent that Prince Rafael is.

Of the eight sons of the late Head of the Imperial House Prince Henrique, only one, Rafael's father, married "equally". The tragic death of his elder brother, Prince Pedro Luiz in 2009, leaves Rafael as the only Prince of the Blood in the male line of his generation. He turns 27 this year and the pressure, hopes and expectations laid on him will be growing inexorably.

These posts are probably better moved to the Imperial Family of Brazil subforum.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Is His Royal Highness aware of the matchmaking efforts being made on his behalf as people thumb through their copies of the Almanach de Gotha, earmarking who they consider to be a suitable match?
After the reconnaisance, what then? A shortlist of candidates from which he is asked (or told) to "pick one"?

If he is interested in finding a royal bride, he will likely spend more time in Europe. But then, I suppose there's always Skype...

He's aware of that. His Royal Highness knows about the high expectations the Monarchists have on him. And he's okay with that. Prince Rafael knows the duties he has with his country and people.

In an interview, last year, he was asked about his marriage plans, and he said that he has the intention to marry and produce heirs to the Brazilian Throne.

He also said (not in a very direct way), that he has the intention to marry equally, just like his father.

Here's the interview (in portuguese):

Íntegra da entrevista com D. Rafael de Orleans e Bragança

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

The pressure isn't only on Prince Rafael (it's stronger on him, but because he's the direct heir to Throne).

The same expectations we have on him (about marriage), we have on his sisters, Princess Amélia and Princess Maria Gabriela. Princess Amélia is now living and working in Europe, and she's in touch with a lot of European Princes.

We also expect good marriages for their cousins, Prince Henri Antoine and Princess Alix of Ligne, children of Princess Eleonora of Orleans-Braganza (now, the Princess of Ligne). They are Brazilian Dynasts, because they were registred as Brazilian citizens. Alix is now living in Brazil.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

How is discussing potential wives for Prince Rafael of Brazil any different from discussing potential wives for Prince Harry of Wales?

The discussion for Harry has its own thread that so far has gathered more than 1,000 posts.

They are both Princes and young. The only differences are that Harry has more prospects of inherit a Throne, and that Prince Rafael has to select his future wife from a more exclusive group: Royalty.

They just happen to be young men with Royal title. And both have duties with their country and people.

 

[NGalitzine]

Given that he is already related to most of the Gotha surely his own family can introduce him to "suitable" young ladies of marriagable age during his visits to Europe without having to resort to outside sources or committees. It begins to sound rather like a meeting of the Kennel Club deciding which dogs should be bred together or like the Imperial Household Agency in Japan coming up with lists of suitable brides for one of their princes which isn't really the best example to follow. The poor guy must feel like he is being out out to stud with little say in the matter.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Given that he is already related to most of the Gotha surely his own family can introduce him to "suitable" young ladies of marriagable age during his visits to Europe without having to resort to outside sources or committees. It begins to sound rather like a meeting of the Kennel Club deciding which dogs should be bred together or like the Imperial Household Agency in Japan coming up with lists of suitable brides for one of their princes which isn't really the best example to follow. The poor guy must feel like he is being out out to stud with little say in the matter.

We're not intending to write to Prince Rafael a list of suitable Princesses. We have a lot of confidence on him.

But what's the matter with discussing who might be the one His Royal Highness will choose?

Prince Rafael probably has no relevance for you, but I'm a Brazilian, and I'm a Monarchist, so his future wife and children are very important for me.

I'm sure you have some kind of affection for the Canadian/British Royal Family and care about what happens to them, the same goes for me and the Brazilian Imperial Family

 

[Warren]

And he's okay with that. Prince Rafael knows the duties he has with his country and people.
...The pressure isn't only on Prince Rafael (it's stronger on him, but because he's the direct heir to Throne).

Poor Prince Rafael could legitimately feel quite resentful and hard-done by now he's been thrust into the role of royal poster-boy and hope of the family. What about all the others? From the top down. Where was their sense of duty?

Prince Hernrique had EIGHT sons, plenty, one would think, to ensure the continuation of the dynasty. Not quite. Here's the list:

1. Prince Luiz Gastao, Head of the Imperial House since Henrique's death in 1981; unmarried
2. Prince Eudes, renounced his rights of succession prior to his (unequal) marriage
3. Prince Bertrand, unmarried
4. Prince Pedro, renounced his rights of succession prior to his (unequal) marriage
5. Prince Fernando, renounced his rights of succession prior to his (unequal) marriage
6. Prince Antonio, married Princess Christine de Ligne, father of Rafael
7. Prince Francisco, renounced his rights of succession prior to his (unequal) marriage
8. Prince Alberto, renounced his rights of succession prior to his (unequal) marriage

Apart from Antonio, not much sense of duty there it seems.

The six married sons have been successful in one regard at least; between them they have produced 25 children. However, with the death of Prince Pedro Luiz in the Air France crash, Prince Rafael is the only royal Prince from that group left standing. That's one out of 25. Taken together with his father being the only one from 8 sons who contracted an approved marriage, the Imperial House of Brazil continues the pattern of playing very slim odds indeed.

 

[NGalitzine]

Might be time to rethink their family laws on marriage before they see themselves into extinction out of stubborness to adapt. All it would take is for Rafael to meet "the one" and decide to marry even if she is not royal enough to please others. Others in his family took that route so it is not impossible that he would as well.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Well, he has said that he intends to marry equally.

And the Imperial Family is not facing extinction. The line of succession has 25 names.

We have Prince Rafael and his sister, in the younger generation, plus the Henri and Alix of Ligne.

And we also have the House of Saxe-Cobourg and Braganza in the line.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Poor Prince Rafael could legitimately feel quite resentful and hard-done by now he's been thrust into the role of royal poster-boy and hope of the family. What about all the others? From the top down. Where was their sense of duty?

Prince Hernrique had EIGHT sons, plenty, one would think, to ensure the continuation of the dynasty. Not quite. Here's the list:

1. Prince Luiz Gastao, Head of the Imperial House since Henrique's death in 1981; unmarried
2. Prince Eudes, renounced his rights of succession prior to his (unequal) marriage
3. Prince Bertrand, unmarried
4. Prince Pedro, renounced his rights of succession prior to his (unequal) marriage
5. Prince Fernando, renounced his rights of succession prior to his (unequal) marriage
6. Prince Antonio, married Princess Christine de Ligne, father of Rafael
7. Prince Francisco, renounced his rights of succession prior to his (unequal) marriage
8. Prince Alberto, renounced his rights of succession prior to his (unequal) marriage

Apart from Antonio, not much sense of duty there it seems.

The six married sons have been successful in one regard at least; between them they have produced 25 children. However, with the death of Prince Pedro Luiz in the Air France crash, Prince Rafael is the only royal Prince from that group left standing. That's one out of 25. Taken together with his father being the only one from 8 sons who contracted an approved marriage, the Imperial House of Brazil continues the pattern of playing very slim odds indeed.

I think that Princes Eudes, Pedro, Fernando, Francisco and Alberto, like Princesses Maria Teresa and Maria Gabriela, had sense of duty, when they decided to renounce, because they would be unable to fulfill the duty to marry equally.