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  #21  
Old 02-01-2013, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post

Good grief. It sounds like a meeting of the Kennel Club. Does poor Rafael get any say in who his future wife may be or is he just to be led to the altar and joined with a suitable blue blood from the Gotha?
Just what I was thinking


How is the prince supposed to meet these lovely ladies? Is his family calling up Grand Duke Henri and Grand Duchess Maria-Theresa asking them for a meeting between the prince and princess Alexandria so that they can meet? Also, who is to say it would work out?

I understand why families require this -these days it seems so hard to arrange a marriage, so perhaps changing the rules and allowing him to marry for love, might be good.
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  #22  
Old 02-02-2013, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Good grief. It sounds like a meeting of the Kennel Club. Does poor Rafael get any say in who his future wife may be or is he just to be led to the altar and joined with a suitable blue blood from the Gotha?
Of course the Prince has a say on that! Las year, he was interviewd by a Monarchs magazine, and he said that he pretend to marry a princess.

As his uncle, the Head of the Imperial House, always says, "for a Brazilian Prince, the duty with the country always come first." Prince Rafael knows that his duty is to marry a princess and produce heirs to the Throne.

His late brother, Prince Pedro Luiz, was in Europe looking for a royal wife. He dated his second cousin, Archduchess Marie Christine of Austria.

His sister, Princess Amelia, is now living and working in Europe, were she's is in contact with lots of princes of Benelux and German areas.

Meets with Princess Alexandra will not be a problem for Prince Rafael, as they already know which other. His mother, Princess Cristina, is Grand Duke Henri's first cousin, she and Prince Antonio represented the Brazilian Imperial Family at Prince Guillaume's wedding, last year. Rafael's uncle, the Prince of Ligne, is Alexandra's godparent.

He will not be forced to marry a princess. He will marry fo love. The general hope is that he falls in love with a princess.
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  #23  
Old 02-02-2013, 03:10 PM
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Alexandra is a beautiful princess, so I would agree that this would be a great match if they are in fact or do in fact fall in love!

Just for my understanding -he must marry a princess no matter what or he will loose his right to the throne? Could they not make an exception if is the only one left being that he has only sisters (correct)?
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  #24  
Old 02-02-2013, 03:16 PM
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Would losing his rights to a throne that has not existed for more than 120 years be that big a deal? It always seems so odd when families who long ago lost their thrones try and enforce rules that actual reigning families no longer hold to.
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  #25  
Old 02-02-2013, 03:30 PM
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Well, the Imperial Family caring about succession means that they still care about Brazil.

And the Monarchist Movement is getting strong. So, if the Monarchy is to be restored, we'll need a Emperor, or a Empress, don't you think?

There's no mention about equal marriages at the Imperial Constitution, so, Prince Rafael isn't required to marry a princess, nor he's required to seek his uncle's (the Head of the Imperial Family) consent to get married. But, the equal marriage is a kind of costume, maybe a House Law, and all Princes and Princesses follow it.

In theory, he can marry anyone. But, as I said, he pretend to marry a princess. And the Monarchist Movement, that is getting very strong nowaday, believe that Princess Alexandra is a wonderful choice.

And we still have the children of the Prince and Princess of Ligne: Henri Antoine and Alix, they're in the Line of Sucession to the Throne, after their mother, Princess Eleonora.

Also, there is the Saxe-Cobourg and Braganza family, the descendents of Princess Leopoldina (1847-1871), Emperor Pedro II's second daughter..
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  #26  
Old 02-02-2013, 03:40 PM
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Lets just say I am not putting any money on a return of the Empire.
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  #27  
Old 02-02-2013, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Lets just say I am not putting any money on a return of the Empire.
No problem. The restoration of the Monarchy in Brazil will have no effect in Canada.
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  #28  
Old 02-02-2013, 04:18 PM
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Isn't there another line also?
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  #29  
Old 02-02-2013, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Charlotte_Aster View Post
Isn't there another line also?
There's a kind of confusion. People belive that the Imperial Family has two lines, and that there's two claimants to the Throne. Nonsense.

There are descendent from Princess Isabel's oldest son, Prince Pedro, who renounced, in his name, and in name of his descendency, the rights to the Throne. They are Princes and Princess of Orleans-Braganza (a french title), not Princes and Princess of Brazil.

The Imperial Family has only nine members:

1. Prince Luiz, Head of the Imperial Family, born in 1938.
2. Prince Bertrand, Prince Imperial, born in 1941. Prince Luiz's brother and heir.
3. Prince Antônio, born in 1950.
4. Princess Cristina, Prince Antônio's wife, born in 1955, as a Princess of Ligne.
5. Prince Rafael, born in 1986, Prince Antônio and Princess Cristina's oldest living son.
6. Princess Amelia, born in 1984, Prince Antônio and Princess Cristina's first daughter.
7. Princess Maria Gabriela, born in 1989, Prince Antônio and Princess Cristina youngest child.
8. Princess Isabel, born in 1944. Princes Luiz, Bertrand and Antnio's sister. She's unmarried.
9. Princess Eleonora, born in 1953. Also a sister of Prince Luiz. She is married to the Prince of Ligne, and lives in Belgium.

Prince Luiz has another twelve brothers and sisters. But they renounced their rights to the throne, in order to marry commoners.

Princess Eleonora's children: Prince Henri Antoine and Princess Alix of Ligne, are also in the line of succession.

The same goes for the House of Saxe-Cobourg and Braganza, descendents from Princess Leopoldina of Brazil (1847-1871).
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  #30  
Old 02-02-2013, 04:36 PM
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Me neither.
And yes, the prince must marry one equal because all of his uncles that did not do it were asked by D Gastão to sign a document resigning to any hereditary rights they might have. Worse, his branch has the succession rights now only because Princesa Izabel made her first born abdicate of his rights because he married a non royal noble.
So, if only to save the Vassouras' branch face he should marry a royal lady.
I think this is a ridiculous situation nowadays but it is what it is.
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  #31  
Old 02-02-2013, 05:07 PM
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I don't think it's ridiculous.
And Prince Pedro de Alcântara was not forced to renouce.

Correction - He do not have another twelve brothers and sisters. He has another seven brothers and sisters.
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  #32  
Old 02-02-2013, 05:22 PM
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First, the situation I find ridiculous is not accepting a royal to marry a non royal.
Secondly, if Prince Pedro de Alcântara was not forced by Princess Izabel to renounce because he married a non royal, why do you think he did it? Do you think Princess Izabel did not force him? If you have any information about it that the majority of Brazilians don't know, I think it would be very enlighting to know what really lead him to renounce.
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  #33  
Old 02-02-2013, 05:41 PM
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Princess Isabel ASKED him to renounce. He was not forced. And yes, it was because the bride was not from royal birth.
He could simply have said: "No, mom, I'll not renounce."

There is a good article about that. A (Inexistente) Questão Dinástica (LEIAM)
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  #34  
Old 02-02-2013, 06:23 PM
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When an Emperor (or Empress de jure) asks, it's an order, for a loving honorable son or a loving honorable subject. By the way, I did not say she forced her son to resign,I said she MADE him resign.
It really doesn't matter if Princess Izabel asked or ordered him to renounce. He did it, end of the story. The now called Vassouras branch has had since then the succession rights and so far have been coherent to the traditions of the royal family. So, IMO it would be hypocritical if he marries "bellow" and continues to be in line for succession (which is completly against what the current head of the family defends - see how D. Gastão's other brothers had to renounce their rights also).
Anyway, his situation is a little bit like the Russian heir's.
The more the time passes, the less chances there is going to be an Emperor-King in Brazil. The only thing that has to be done to not decrease (because there is hardly anything to do to increase) the chances of inheriting an eventual throne is to stick to tradition. It is all every deposed dynasties have.
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  #35  
Old 02-02-2013, 08:23 PM
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He could have said no to her, even though she was the Head of the Imperial House and Empress de jure. And Princess Isabel would not have any power against him. Equal marriages were never mentioned in the Imperial Constitution, and only a heiress apparent would be required to seek the Head of the Imperial Family's consent to marry. People have to start to accept that the Prince's renounce was made on his own will, just like the subsequent renounce in the Imperial Family, none of them were forced.

And the Princes are right in keeping with tradition, marriage between Royalty and commoners always brings a lot of risks.
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  #36  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:06 PM
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"He could have said no to her, even though she was the Head of the Imperial House and Empress de jure. And Princess Isabel would not have any power against him. Equal marriages were never mentioned in the Imperial Constitution"
Yes, D. Pedro could have said no, nobody put a gun on his head. But all he had at that point was his family that had been through more than enough traumatizing events. He was a man with honor and pride and complied with his mother's wishes. Who knows what could have happenned if he had not renounced? Was it possible for Izabel to disinherit him? Anyways, the strong willed, egoistic and bolder are usually the ones who have been able to keep or conquer thornes, disregarding other people's well beeing. D. Pedro had an example in his grandfather, D. Pedro II who gave up fighting for his throne to avoid blood in his hands. The Brazilian Royals have always appreciated the "beau gest".

"And the Princes are right in keeping with tradition, marriage between Royalty and commoners always brings a lot of risks."
I think following tradition is the only way for a deposed royal house to survive; particularly in the case of the Brazilian royal family regarding equal marriage due to all those events relating to this that have been happening till the current generation. On the other hand, humankind has evolved and is not as biased as it was 200 years ago - Thank God!
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  #37  
Old 02-02-2013, 11:47 PM
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...I think following tradition is the only way for a deposed royal house to survive...
Royals are just as risky as commoners! I have yet to see any issues Mary, Maxima, Daniel, Matte-Marit, Katherine, etc. there are several royals who have caused a stink in their life times and many that do so today.

Divorce rates among Roy's are pretty high, and common marriages between royals and "risky" people are about the same.

So I find it hard to agree with you here. I do agree that to assist the imperial house perhaps he should marry blue blood -but perhaps if he falls for a commoner he should marry her instead!
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  #38  
Old 02-03-2013, 08:52 AM
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Dear UStrojan
Just to clarify, what I posted in italic is what Brazilian Empire wrote in his-her previous post.
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  #39  
Old 03-01-2013, 05:08 PM
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The Isenburg Princely Family is Catholic or Protestant?
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  #40  
Old 03-01-2013, 05:46 PM
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The Isenburg Princely Family is Catholic or Protestant?
The Princely Family of Isenburg is catholic and the Princely Family of Ysenburg and Büdingen is protestant.
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