Why is Austria so anti-Habsburg?

[CSENYC]

Why did Austria ban the Habsburgs from entering Austria, and in general, why is Austria (or at least certain elements in Austrian government and society) so anti-Habsburg?

Yes, the government grossly miscalculated in 1914 and the population suffered tremendously. I don't see that as purely a Habsburg responsibility, as Austria was somewhat democratic. The Habsburgs after 1914, such as Emperor Charles and Otto von Habsburg, were really good people who tried their best for their people.

So...why has Austria been so anti-Habsburg, when in my view, at least some of them should be celebrated?

 

[claypoint2]

I will of course defer to the historical record and to those with much deeper and closer knowledge of the subject, but I believe that the Sixtus Affair had a noxious effect on Emperor Karl's reputation. It is also possible that the same qualities that will probably make him a saint of the Church rendered him temperamentally less well suited to the task of being a wartime emperor. But I agree that the level of animosity toward the Habsburgs in Austria is somewhat irrational, although these days some would say it's more indifference than animosity.

 

[claypoint2]

Here is a rather ungenerous article from 2004 that is nevertheless helpful in that it sets forth the various perspectives and opinions that have floated around about Emperor Karl.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jan/19/catholicism.religion

 

[Curryong]

I know very little about it really, but could it have less to do with the personal qualities ot lack of them of the last Emperor and more a lingering resentment about the regime that sent the Austrian people into war and ultimately to a terrible defeat?

What I mean is, before 1914 Austria was the senior partner in an extensive Empire even if much had gone in the previous century. In 1914 Austria was there at the hub of European affairs and glittering, cosmopolitan Vienna was one of the major centres of European life and thought.

In 1919 the Empire was shattered, Hungary had pulled away leaving Austria as rather a rump of a country, (forgive me, any Austrians reading this) Vienna was faded and no longer a main centre, and there was great privation and suffering.

It was perhaps natural that in the post-war turmoil there was bitterness and resentment about the government and the Hapsburg Emperor who was so associated with this defeat and all it meant. Franz Josef was dead of course, but Karl was alive, so the resentment and anger may have tranferred itself to him, and that feeling may have continued on into recent times. Jmo.

 

[Pranter]

My husband's paternal ancestors were the carriage makers for the Emperor. Another one was a Colonel in the Austrian military.

I find anything about Austria to be interesting (I dabble in geneology). There are still cousins in Austria, our son is going to meet some of them in the next year or so.

Being a younger crowd..not sure what they would say to this question...hmmm maybe I will have our son ask them (he loves history).


LaRae

 

[Curryong]

Really Pranter? How interesting! I expect some of the carriages and coaches they made and refurbished are still around in museums and the palaces. Did any of them meet the Emperor, I wonder.

I don't know whether Royal dynasties occupy the thoughts of young people, much, nowadays. Maybe there will be some insights, however. Who knows? I don't know that much about the Hapsburgs but I have been interested for many years in what happened at Mayerling and the tragic end of Crown Prince Rudolf and Marie Vetsera.

 

[Chubb Fuddler]

In the 1930s, Empress Zita and Archduke Otto were working hard towards a restoration in Austria. They might even have succeeded, but along came Hitler and Austria instead embraced Nazism with a great deal of enthusiasm. Just look at the footage of Hitler's entry into Vienna after the Anschluss (which had the secret code name of Operation Otto). Perhaps the House of Habsburg is an inconvenient reminder that Austria, unlike Archduke Otto, did not reject Nazism.

 

[Pranter]

Really Pranter? How interesting! I expect some of the carriages and coaches they made and refurbished are still around in museums and the palaces. Did any of them meet the Emperor, I wonder.

I don't know whether Royal dynasties occupy the thoughts of young people, much, nowadays. Maybe there will be some insights, however. Who knows? I don't know that much about the Hapsburgs but I have been interested for many years in what happened at Mayerling and the tragic end of Crown Prince Rudolf and Marie Vetsera.

I know! We have pictures of the Colonel (a photo of his painting..he was born in the later 1700's). The family (well the husband's branch) immigrated to the US in the 1800's.

Another member of the family married a Danish Baron. Maybe they met the Emperor? I kinda get the impression that even the carriage makers were of a higher social status...quite possible they met the Emperor as well.

My in-laws went over to Austria in the 80's and met cousins, one of which worked for the Spanish Riding school in Vienna.

Since the whole family has been Catholic forever, there were parish registers which makes it somewhat easier to track people down.


Myself I am of the peasant class LOL


Oh my guess is most of the younger crowd has little interest in monarchy. I wonder how well history is taught there.

The Habsburg certainly do have a tragic history. Who's to say if any of them that are left would even be interested?

LaRae

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I know very little about it really, but could it have less to do with the personal qualities ot lack of them of the last Emperor and more a lingering resentment about the regime that sent the Austrian people into war and ultimately to a terrible defeat?

What I mean is, before 1914 Austria was the senior partner in an extensive Empire even if much had gone in the previous century. In 1914 Austria was there at the hub of European affairs and glittering, cosmopolitan Vienna was one of the major centres of European life and thought.

In 1919 the Empire was shattered, Hungary had pulled away leaving Austria as rather a rump of a country, (forgive me, any Austrians reading this) Vienna was faded and no longer a main centre, and there was great privation and suffering.

It was perhaps natural that in the post-war turmoil there was bitterness and resentment about the government and the Hapsburg Emperor who was so associated with this defeat and all it meant. Franz Josef was dead of course, but Karl was alive, so the resentment and anger may have tranferred itself to him, and that feeling may have continued on into recent times. Jmo.

I have always been confused about everything when it comes to Austria-Hungary, Prussia and Germany and especially the Habsburg's; I just learned about Zita and Charles 5 minutes ago and I am shocked and saddened to hear that the Habsburg 's are "banned" from Austria. I can only say it is sad I won't state any opinion on the politics or reasoning because I am too ignorant of it all.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The immense Habsburg monarchy, the biggest nation in Europe, Russia apart (which stretches out on the European and Asian continent) imploded into many states. The new republican governments which seized power tried, with all means, to ban the Habsburgers and their legacy, purely out of self-survival. They absolutely wanted to rule out any possible pro-Habsburg uprisings and what was more effective than just ban the whole family out of the country, to brainwash schoolchildren with the virtues of the new republic?

Also do not underestimate that it was Austria-Hungary which started the immense slaughter, called World War I*. As a result of this never-seen massacre the thrones of Russia, Germany and Austria, including all those German small states tumbled down. The Von Sachsen-Coburg und Gothas in the United Kingdom and in Belgium rushed to change their names into "Windsor" respectively "De Belgique" because of the same sentiment.

In the meantime all blockades have been lifted. Any Von Habsburg is welcome in Austria.

*
June 28, 1914 - Gavrilo Princip assassinates Archduke Franz Ferdinand and Archduchess Sophie
July 28, 1914 - Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia
August 2, 1914 - The Ottoman Empire (Turkey) and Germany sign a secret treaty of alliance
August 3, 1914 - Germany declares war on France
August 4, 1914 - Germany invades Belgium, leading the UK to declare war on Germany
August 10, 1914 - Austria-Hungary invades Russia

 

[carinthia]

to understand the habsburg banning in Austria you have to get knowledge about the Austrian domestic policy between 1919-1938. first of all the socialist party did everything for the Habsburg ban after 1918 followed by the Nazis. an icon of the socialists Karl Renner give a warm welcome adress to Hitler before annexation of Austria in 1938. The operation code of Hitlers annexation in Austria was "Unternehmen Otto" as Otto von Habsburg was for Hitler a public enemy. study

Gordon Brook-Shepherds oeuvre about the fall and the later consequences of the Habsburg empire, which a quite serious source.
My personal opinion is, Austria uses still today the Habsburg stereotypical feeling and didn't ever any compensation payments for the family.

 

[Muhler]

In contrast it's my sense there is a good deal of nostalgia in Austria about the imperial past.
With a number of imperial traditions not only retained but very much appreciated. Like the balls, carriages and pride in the imperial splendor.
Not to mention the somewhat historically incorrect, but nevertheless loved heimat-movies.
Even mensur-scarring became fashionable again for a brief period!

Considering the recent problems in regards to electing the president and the political issues with EU for quite a few years actually, is the public sentiment towards a Habsburg as a neutral and nationally unifying head of state that unpalatable anymore?

 

[Muhler]

*
June 28, 1914 - Gavrilo Princip assassinates Archduke Franz Ferdinand and Archduchess Sophie
/QUOTE]

I have often wondered what Gavrilo Princip thought while in jail. As you know he died in 1918, and as such he must have been fully aware of what he in a sense started.
And certainly been aware of the disastrous outcome (at least on a short term basis) for Serbia.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

The immense Habsburg monarchy, the biggest nation in Europe, Russia apart (which stretches out on the European and Asian continent) imploded into many states. The new republican governments which seized power tried, with all means, to ban the Habsburgers and their legacy, purely out of self-survival. They absolutely wanted to rule out any possible pro-Habsburg uprisings and what was more effective than just ban the whole family out of the country, to brainwash schoolchildren with the virtues of the new republic?

Also do not underestimate that it was Austria-Hungary which started the immense slaughter, called World War I*. As a result of this never-seen massacre the thrones of Russia, Germany and Austria, including all those German small states tumbled down. The Von Sachsen-Coburg und Gothas in the United Kingdom and in Belgium rushed to change their names into "Windsor" respectively "De Belgique" because of the same sentiment.

In the meantime all blockades have been lifted. Any Von Habsburg is welcome in Austria.

*
June 28, 1914 - Gavrilo Princip assassinates Archduke Franz Ferdinand and Archduchess Sophie
July 28, 1914 - Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia
August 2, 1914 - The Ottoman Empire (Turkey) and Germany sign a secret treaty of alliance
August 3, 1914 - Germany declares war on France
August 4, 1914 - Germany invades Belgium, leading the UK to declare war on Germany
August 10, 1914 - Austria-Hungary invades Russia

I wouldn’t lay sole on blame on WWI on Austria-Hungary.

 

[victor1319]

Well, whatever... But I will never get over the fact, that the House of Habsburg abandoned such large riches just for NOT laying down their claim to the Throne!

Did they not have a Machiavelli in their library?

I mean, democratic politicians lie all then time - and if they get cought, they can relax a few years as the well paid opposition.

What did the House of Habsburg think, they were dealing with?

 

[JR76]

Well, whatever... But I will never get over the fact, that the House of Habsburg abandoned such large riches just for NOT laying down their claim to the Throne!

Several members of the house recognized the republic and were allowed to keep their possessions. That the emperor and his close family didn't isn't that hard to understand especially when considering the fact that he felt he was appointed by God himself to rule.

 

[Blog Real]

Do the Habsburgs still maintain some imperial properties in Austria? Did they inherit some things from their imperial ancestors?

Did the Habsburgs never try to restore the monarchy?

 

[Susan D]

Some Austrians are not convinced that the last kaiser, carl, was a Habsburg. Also, it is a different country now.

 

[maria-olivia]

The President of Austria did attend Archduke Otto's Funerals.

 

[JR76]

Do the Habsburgs still maintain some imperial properties in Austria? Did they inherit some things from their imperial ancestors?

Did the Habsburgs never try to restore the monarchy?

The descendants of Archduchess Marie Valerie and Archduke Franz Salvator still own Persenbeug castle, Wallsee castle and the Kaiservilla in Ischl.

The granddaughter of Emperor Franz Josef, Archduchess Elisabeth, kept a large part of her inheritance and left many of them to the Austrian state after her death.

 

[victor1319]

That the emperor and his close family didn't isn't that hard to understand especially when considering the fact that he felt he was appointed by God himself to rule.

Yeah, he "felt"...

When I did read a German book about a noble couple in the Hitler regime, I did find a similiar pattern: So, there is this 2 meter tall Prussian noble man. He escapes the Gestapo twice(!!!) after the failed assassination attempt on Hitler - one time direct in front of the Gestapo headquarter.

Then he disappears into the woods around Berlin. Just to get found by a ranger some good 150 kilometers north, whom he asks for Asylum and this dude calls the police... The noble man was then later brutally hanged with a wire loop in a prison in Berlin.

A two meter dude! Trained as a professional soldier! And instead of ramming the ranger into the ground to continue his escape... A Gentleman in an Extermination War...

The book is this here: https://www.amazon.de/Doppelleben-G...watch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1703112972&sr=8-15

It is about the parents of the later so famous supermodel Veruschka aka Countess Vera von Lehndorff.

 

[Lee-Z]

Interesting thread, maybe this page also explains some of it
https://www.mediathek.at/der-erste-...-habsburgermonarchie/das-ende-der-habsburger/

google translated
https://www-mediathek-at.translate...._sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=nl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

 

[Alison H]

I think Maximilian and Maria Theresa are both still quite popular. And Vienna is actually quite obsessed with Franz Josef and Sisi. You can even buy Christmas tree baubles with their pictures on!

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Well, whatever... But I will never get over the fact, that the House of Habsburg abandoned such large riches just for NOT laying down their claim to the Throne!

Did they not have a Machiavelli in their library?

I mean, democratic politicians lie all then time - and if they get cought, they can relax a few years as the well paid opposition.

What did the House of Habsburg think, they were dealing with?

It wasn’t that simple, Hitler and the Nazis would have just confiscated the properties anyways which the Nazis did. They had properties in other parts of the Empire and some still can’t get them back. It was easier for the junior members but not for the last Emperor. The properties were initially given back, only to be taken again

 

[JR76]

It wasn’t that simple, Hitler and the Nazis would have just confiscated the properties anyways which the Nazis did. They had properties in other parts of the Empire and some still can’t get them back. It was easier for the junior members but not for the last Emperor. The properties were initially given back, only to be taken again

One could imagine that had Karl accepted the fall of the monarchy and negotiated with the republican regime he could have gotten a deal alike those of the deposed German dynasties got. Actively plotting against the new republic did him no favours.

 

[Kataryn]

It wasn’t that simple, Hitler and the Nazis would have just confiscated the properties anyways which the Nazis did. They had properties in other parts of the Empire and some still can’t get them back. It was easier for the junior members but not for the last Emperor. The properties were initially given back, only to be taken again

I think it has to do with the money they possessed. The government during the time the Habsburgergesetze became law, in 1919, wanted the money of the Habsburg-Lothringen family to go into a fond for the livelyhood of widows and orphans of WWI. It was announced that any leftover estate would be given back. (That is, family money and estates that did not belong to the state - this was of course taken as property of the "state of Austria" and kept for the new Bundespräsident, the government and the "people of Austria" on opening up castles and palaces.


The money taken from the private possessions of those who did not pledge alliegience to the new State of Austria was used till 1929 for the fond for widows and orphans, and then taken into the State's coffers.



In 2011 the ownership of those fonds was denied again, the State kept it.

 

[JR76]

I think it has to do with the money they possessed. The government during the time the Habsburgergesetze became law, in 1919, wanted the money of the Habsburg-Lothringen family to go into a fond for the livelyhood of widows and orphans of WWI. It was announced that any leftover estate would be given back. (That is, family money and estates that did not belong to the state - this was of course taken as property of the "state of Austria" and kept for the new Bundespräsident, the government and the "people of Austria" on opening up castles and palaces.


The money taken from the private possessions of those who did not pledge alliegience to the new State of Austria was used till 1929 for the fond for widows and orphans, and then taken into the State's coffers.



In 2011 the ownership of those fonds was denied again, the State kept it.

How interesting. I didn't know about the fund for widows and orphans.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

One could imagine that had Karl accepted the fall of the monarchy and negotiated with the republican regime he could have gotten a deal alike those of the deposed German dynasties got. Actively plotting against the new republic did him no favours.

I don’t think his ideas for a restoration were well thought out, even if Karl accepted the Republic, I don’t think they would have been able to keep the properties with the political situation that happened anyways. The leading Austrian politicians were supportive of the Anschluss and Hitler particularly Karl Renner who was a socialist. Maybe they would have gotten it back, maybe they wouldn’t have gotten it. Also it didn’t work out well for all the deposed German dynasties some whose properties ended up in Soviet spheres of control.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I think it has to do with the money they possessed. The government during the time the Habsburgergesetze became law, in 1919, wanted the money of the Habsburg-Lothringen family to go into a fond for the livelyhood of widows and orphans of WWI. It was announced that any leftover estate would be given back. (That is, family money and estates that did not belong to the state - this was of course taken as property of the "state of Austria" and kept for the new Bundespräsident, the government and the "people of Austria" on opening up castles and palaces.


The money taken from the private possessions of those who did not pledge alliegience to the new State of Austria was used till 1929 for the fond for widows and orphans, and then taken into the State's coffers.



In 2011 the ownership of those fonds was denied again, the State kept it.

Would the fund support just Austrians or widow and orphan from all parts of the Empire? Because if it’s the latter, that’s a lot of widows and orphans to support.

 

[JR76]

I don’t think his ideas for a restoration were well thought out, even if Karl accepted the Republic, I don’t think they would have been able to keep the properties with the political situation that happened anyways. The leading Austrian politicians were supportive of the Anschluss and Hitler particularly Karl Renner who was a socialist. Maybe they would have gotten it back, maybe they wouldn’t have gotten it. Also it didn’t work out well for all the deposed German dynasties some whose properties ended up in Soviet spheres of control.

That some deposed German dynasties lost everything to the Soviets have nothing to do with their relationship with the Weimar authorities. Also the deals made during the 1920s has in some cases made it possible for them to get some of of their possessions back after reunification.