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  #61  
Old 07-17-2011, 07:50 PM
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But I, as a monarchist believe Austria could be better of as a constitutional monarchy. I might be crazy, I might be out of touch but that's me in the royal forums
No problem, that is your opinion. But knowing who the next Emperor would be I am sure we are better off being a Republic. Don't get me wrong AD Karl is a very nice man with a great family and wife but alas he is not the man his father was. therefore yesterday was the end of an era.

@MM: I forgot to add Franz Joseph only has personal heirs through his two daughters and his granddaughter. So Markus Habsburg-Lothringen is a descendant of FJs younger daughter Marie Valerie and her husband who was also an AD. the older daughter Gisela became a Bavarian princess, and Elizabeth the granddaughter married twice as mentioned above.
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  #62  
Old 07-17-2011, 07:59 PM
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So AD Karl is related to FJ how exactly...a nephew?

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  #63  
Old 07-17-2011, 08:03 PM
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Oh no. Archduke Karl is a grandson of Karl I, the last emperor. Who was a grand-nephew of FJ.
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  #64  
Old 07-17-2011, 08:04 PM
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his great great great nephew. Otto was his great great nephew, and Emperor Karl who was Otto's father was his great nephew. FJ was the older brother of AD Carl Ludwig who was Emperor Karl's grandfather.
So it goes that way:
FJ brother of Carl Ludwig
- father of: AD Franz Ferdinand died 1914 and AD Otto
Emperor Karl
CP Franz Joseph OTTO
AD Karl
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  #65  
Old 07-17-2011, 08:11 PM
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True. @MM just keep in mind that FJ descendants did not inherit the crown. The current head of the family is of course related to FJ, but not directly through a father-son connection.
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  #66  
Old 07-17-2011, 08:19 PM
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Very well said ;-). I would like to add that FJs branch doesn't get along very well with AD Karl as new head of the family. There are some sort of tensions among the several branches and AD Karl. Nobody doubted Otto's claim as head of the family but it is a different matter with AD Karl.
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  #67  
Old 07-17-2011, 08:22 PM
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Did Austrians ever vote on abolition of the monarchy? Or were the Habsburgs just chased out, like in Germany?
(I also read that Francisco Franco offered Otto von Habsburg the opportunity to be King of Spain, but Otto declined. That would have been interesting!)
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  #68  
Old 07-17-2011, 08:26 PM
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I love Austria, My grandmother was Austrian. I have spent many, wonderful, times in Austria. Time moves forward. A monarchy is anachronistic. It didn't work back then and it isn't going to work, now. Austrians have to own their past and move forward. They heiled Hitler and were Nazi's to the worse degree. They denied this with the "rape of Austria" myth. They have come forward. Otto's last book, trying to excuse this was nonsense. He was a good man. Times has past. Just leap into the 21st century.
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  #69  
Old 07-17-2011, 08:31 PM
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No there was never a vote on the abolition of the monarchy. The Austrian parties in the Parliament decided that the monarchy had come to an end in November 1918. The Emperor accepted this more ore less and then tried to restake his claim in 1919, that's why they had to leave Austria. They being Karl's family and the family of his brother. All the others were allowed to stay if they accepted the new-found Republic which they apparently did. Even FJs youngest daughter Marie Valerie accepted the Republic and was in fact a very devoted Republican with a strong Nationalist Attitude. Even her mother Empress Elizabeth was already at the death of CP Rudolph in 1889 convinced that the monarchy would come to an end after FJs death and was sure that Austria would be better off as a Republic than a Monarchy.

And it is true about Franco offering Otto the crown of Spain.
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Old 07-17-2011, 08:38 PM
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They heiled Hitler and were Nazi's to the worse degree. They denied this with the "rape of Austria" myth. They have come forward. Otto's last book, trying to excuse this was nonsense. He was a good man. Times has past.
Just let me add that a great majority of Austrians were pro-Hitler but there were also lots of lots of Austrians who fought against him. Many in fact, there was a movement called 05 who fought against Hitler. And then there were Austrians who had to go into Exile like Freud or died in the KZs. Yes there were also victims in Austria not only Nazis. My grandparents and greatgrandparents have never been Nazis, they didn't do one single thing and so were many others. You can not just say every Austrian is a Nazi, that is just wrong.

And what Otto's last book concerns he was always talking about the country who was a victim NOT the citizens. That is a big difference.
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  #71  
Old 07-17-2011, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Kit View Post
Very well said ;-). I would like to add that FJs branch doesn't get along very well with AD Karl as new head of the family. There are some sort of tensions among the several branches and AD Karl. Nobody doubted Otto's claim as head of the family but it is a different matter with AD Karl.
Why is this a different matter with AD Karl?


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  #72  
Old 07-17-2011, 09:32 PM
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There is the issue of his marriage, mainly.
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  #73  
Old 07-17-2011, 09:47 PM
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Ah..what issue exactly?


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  #74  
Old 07-17-2011, 09:49 PM
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Just let me add that a great majority of Austrians were pro-Hitler but there were also lots of lots of Austrians who fought against him. Many in fact, there was a movement called 05 who fought against Hitler. And then there were Austrians who had to go into Exile like Freud or died in the KZs. Yes there were also victims in Austria not only Nazis. My grandparents and greatgrandparents have never been Nazis, they didn't do one single thing and so were many others. You can not just say every Austrian is a Nazi, that is just wrong.

And what Otto's last book concerns he was always talking about the country who was a victim NOT the citizens. That is a big difference.
Freud, just in case you are not aware, was a Jew. He didn't go into exile. He fled the country to live. Yes, there were brave and anti-Nazi Austrians, but the majority were not. Otto, happened to be a real anti-Nazi, that is why I questioned his last wrtten piece. He knew better.
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  #75  
Old 07-17-2011, 09:58 PM
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Well he married Francesca Thyssen-Bornemisza de Kszon et Imprfalva. She is the daughter of a Baron, but not a royal. Her family is very but very wealthy and owns an impressive art collection. Under the last succesion laws that marriage it would have been unacceptable. The questions are should they comply with that law? how realistic is to impose royal marriages today? can they change that law? if yes, how? and how valid are those changes.

AD Otto was very down to earth about those issues, and he was generous and understanding with the rest of the family too.
If they oppose Karl and his son, next in line is Georg who did marry 'right'. I hope the Habsburgs don't undermine themselves with these anachronistic disputes.
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  #76  
Old 07-17-2011, 10:26 PM
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I can't see how Austria could function as a constitutional monarchy. It seems alright as a republic, and I believe the Hapsburgs and their tragic past is a big tourist trap for the country. How could such an elaborately conservative Catholic royal court feel comfortable in a constitutional monarchy framework? Not to mention the issue of the other countries who shared the Hapsburgs as their royal family (Hungary for one). And then there's the issue of how much control the Catholic Church would have, the Vatican may want to have a very close eye on the country especially with a German pope. In my experience the Catholic royals are enthralled by the church and may put more emphasis on religion than should in a secular society.
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  #77  
Old 07-17-2011, 10:33 PM
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They don't have to recreate an elaborate conservative Catholic court. The Bourbons of Spain don't live in the past, and they are Catholics.
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  #78  
Old 07-17-2011, 10:35 PM
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Oh good grief you sound like the anti-Catholics who cried that if Kennedy was elected president the vatican would control the U.S. Neither the vatican or pope Benedict have any interest in controlling Austria.

It is quite possible for a Catholic monarch to be orthodox in their Faith and rule over a secular country, shame that it is to think Austria has lost it's Faith. More than one thing was lost when they toss out the ruling family...and that applies to more than one country.


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  #79  
Old 07-17-2011, 11:02 PM
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not a single chance that the monarchy in Austria will EVER be restored again. believe me I am Austrian I should know about these things. only after hell has frozen over. the attendance of our politicans at the funeral of Otto had something to do with him being a member of the European Parliament and with his support for Austria and his citizens during the Nazi years, etc. even while being in exile. Dr. Heinz Fischer and our members of the government wouldn't have been there if Otto hadn't renounced his claim in 1961. Zita's funeral was a different matter.
Thanks for posting! Good to hear from someone who lives in Austria.
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  #80  
Old 07-18-2011, 01:19 AM
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If the Austrian Imperial Family are back to the thorne, I think Austria should have the government like Japan which is Unitary parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy, that the Emperor has not any power to control the government, just the symbol of the country. And the government has fully power to administer the country.

And if the Hungarians also wants the monarchy, the Magyar government should be the same as Austria. And forget Bohemia, Moravia, Lodomeria, Galicia, Illyria, etc. or just keep them as the title. But the permanent title of the head of state should be..

"His Imperial and Royal Apostolic Majesty Emperor of Austria, the Apostolic King of Hungary"...

So I cheer this family back to the throne again...Love Live the Habsburgs!!!
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