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  #21  
Old 07-17-2011, 07:46 AM
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I seriously doubt that Audtria will ever become a monarchy again. One of the main problems is the question what kind of realm it would be? Historiclly it was an dukedom like many others. Then the Habsburgs took over from the Babenbergs and faked the document which "proved" that Austria was an "arch"-dukedom. They didn't even win a prince-elector-ship for Austria, that's why they tried to elevate their House to those of the Prince-Electors as the "Archducal"-House. It was only when the Head of the Habsburgs married the daughter and heiress of the then emperor of the HRE and king of Bohemia that they became a "Royal family". Same with most of their other acquisitions over the centuries: always married the heiresses and added the lands and souverainities. But - these lands remained the "Kronlande" - the Crown lands of the Habsburgs, of which Austria was just a part of. Austria itself, though its capital was the capital of the entire Habsburg-lands, was still just a dukedom. All the other realms were held by the Habsburg-Head of the family in personal union. Even later in 1804, when Franz created the Austria empire, Austria (the land) itself stayed a dukedom within the empire, while the "Emperor of Austria"-title and rank belonged not to the holder of Austria but to the "Head of the House of Habsburg". Suo jure Otto and now Karl could call themselves "Emperor of Austria" because this was/is their right according to the proclamation of the Austrian Empire - which was based on the rights of the House of Habsburg, not on the possession of the actual lands.

So today's Austria (other than Bohemia(Czechoslowakia and Hungary) cannot claim to be historically a kingdom. It's not an empire either. It's just an dukedom and I sincerely doubt that in our modern times anyone wants to resurrect this dukedom (which is not even a "Granddukedom" la Luxembourg) or to create a new "kingdom" when Austria never was one. So even if they wanted a consitutional monarchy, what could they do?
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  #22  
Old 07-17-2011, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Renata4711 View Post
I have never been to Austria, but it strikes me as a society which treasures the past, but is also a modern federal state.

Am I right in thinking that Austria has had some bad press in the recent past, e.g. Haider, and the chap who kept his family prisoner etc. ?

If so, a modern constitutional monarchy could make an impact for good.

Why did you choose Johann Salvator as your namesake ? :-)
Absolutely! Austria has had bad press recently. It was deserved though. But besides those two cases, the country has hardly any image abroad. It has pretty much been a lacklustre republic. And besides Sigmund Freud and Arnold Schwarznegger, nothing has happened there since 1918.
That country could benefit so much from a constitutional monarchy. Nowadays, even the beautiful Vienna seemed to have been forgotten.

Johann Salvator was an archduke that married an actress and dissappeared at sea after sailing on its yacht from Montevideo, the city were I spend my childhood and I love very much. Kind of over-romantic, but that's me
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  #23  
Old 07-17-2011, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I seriously doubt that Audtria will ever become a monarchy again. One of the main problems is the question what kind of realm it would be? Historiclly it was an dukedom like many others. Then the Habsburgs took over from the Babenbergs and faked the document which "proved" that Austria was an "arch"-dukedom. They didn't even win a prince-elector-ship for Austria, that's why they tried to elevate their House to those of the Prince-Electors as the "Archducal"-House. It was only when the Head of the Habsburgs married the daughter and heiress of the then emperor of the HRE and king of Bohemia that they became a "Royal family". Same with most of their other acquisitions over the centuries: always married the heiresses and added the lands and souverainities. But - these lands remained the "Kronlande" - the Crown lands of the Habsburgs, of which Austria was just a part of. Austria itself, though its capital was the capital of the entire Habsburg-lands, was still just a dukedom. All the other realms were held by the Habsburg-Head of the family in personal union. Even later in 1804, when Franz created the Austria empire, Austria (the land) itself stayed a dukedom within the empire, while the "Emperor of Austria"-title and rank belonged not to the holder of Austria but to the "Head of the House of Habsburg". Suo jure Otto and now Karl could call themselves "Emperor of Austria" because this was/is their right according to the proclamation of the Austrian Empire - which was based on the rights of the House of Habsburg, not on the possession of the actual lands.

So today's Austria (other than Bohemia(Czechoslowakia and Hungary) cannot claim to be historically a kingdom. It's not an empire either. It's just an dukedom and I sincerely doubt that in our modern times anyone wants to resurrect this dukedom (which is not even a "Granddukedom" la Luxembourg) or to create a new "kingdom" when Austria never was one. So even if they wanted a consitutional monarchy, what could they do?
WOW, Once again I marvelled at your historical knowledge. I didn't know Habsburg past was rather messy, forging documents and all that!

I could not agree with you more but is about politics and what the people want. Today sovereignty lays with the people not with the monarch anymore. So hypothetically if Austrians want to become a constitutional monarchy, nothing would stop them. When Greece became a kingdom in 1832, it was a creation from zero, the same with Belgium in 1831, and many more.

Another option it would be that Austria forgets all its links with the East and South and joins Germany (its true home) in a new country with a Habsburg monarch and Wien as the capital
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  #24  
Old 07-17-2011, 08:19 AM
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The Romanians were the majority in Transsylvania /Partium/Banat but the hungarians try to destroy their cultural identity imposing the hungarian even in the confessional romanian schools (greek-catholic and orthodox schools), changing surnames, arresting the political leaders of the romanians,etc.Because of that the Habsburgs lost their alliance with the Kingdom of Romania and after 1918 Romania opposed any possible Restoration because of the "tradition of the Crown of St.Stephen".
Even today the hungarians use the "Crown of St.Stephen" to proclaim their nationalist ideas of conquering parts of neighbourgh countries.
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  #25  
Old 07-17-2011, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
The Romanians were the majority in Transsylvania /Partium/Banat but the hungarians try to destroy their cultural identity imposing the hungarian even in the confessional romanian schools (greek-catholic and orthodox schools), changing surnames, arresting the political leaders of the romanians,etc.Because of that the Habsburgs lost their alliance with the Kingdom of Romania and after 1918 Romania opposed any possible Restoration because of the "tradition of the Crown of St.Stephen".
Even today the hungarians use the "Crown of St.Stephen" to proclaim their nationalist ideas of conquering parts of neighbourgh countries.
I am aware of that. I was reading that the current Hungarian governement has the presidency of the EU and they are an embarrassement with their totalitarian views. Also that they are almost giving Hungarian passports away, because of new nationality laws. I don't want to upset Hungarians since I am sure most of them are decent hard-working people. But I know that some nationalistic-revisionist-of- the-past politicians are becoming pretty big in Hungary.

If Hungary became very small after the war, so what? The only way to gain those territories back is with a positive and democratic way, like the German reunification.

Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on his own dunghill.
Richard Aldington
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  #26  
Old 07-17-2011, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Johann Salvator View Post
I am aware of that. I was reading that the current Hungarian governement has the presidency of the EU and they are an embarrassement with their totalitarian views. Also that they are almost giving Hungarian passports away, because of new nationality laws. I don't want to upset Hungarians since I am sure most of them are decent hard-working people. But I know that some nationalistic-revisionist-of- the-past politicians are becoming pretty big in Hungary.

If Hungary became very small after the war, so what? The only way to gain those territories back is with a positive and democratic way, like the German reunification.

Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on his own dunghill.
Richard Aldington
Here is there a major concern for archduke Georg. In a interview about the totalitarian views of the government, he could only answer that the much criticized new constitution was a good one because it had mentions of God. This kind of declarations lets him very far from the standard of his father. If he really wants to become king of Hungary, this is a huge mistake.
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  #27  
Old 07-17-2011, 09:12 AM
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Here is there a major concern for archduke Georg. In a interview about the totalitarian views of the government, he could only answer that the much criticized new constitution was a good one because it had mentions of God. This kind of declarations lets him very far from the standard of his father. If he really wants to become king of Hungary, this is a huge mistake.
I am sure he must be in a very difficult position. He is an ambassador-at-large of Hungary, but the government, although democratic, is an embarrasement for Europe. I'd love to have more information. From what I know he is a brilliant man, pretty much the son of his father.
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  #28  
Old 07-17-2011, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Johann Salvator View Post
I am sure he must be in a very difficult position. He is an ambassador-at-large of Hungary, but the government, although democratic, is an embarrasement for Europe. I'd love to have more information. From what I know he is a brilliant man, pretty much the son of his father.
The only insights I have on him come from interviews, so I can't say more, but the situation is clearly not good for his public image.
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  #29  
Old 07-17-2011, 10:51 AM
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As to Hungarian politics, I recently saw a programme about Jobbik, a political party in Hungary.
Amazingly, this was screened on BBC Alba, the Gaelic-speaking channel.
Alba has a programme called "Eorpa" - Europe in Gaelic :-)
Anyway, they showed scary scenes of Jobbik members behaving like Nazis. And they call themselves Christians....
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  #30  
Old 07-17-2011, 11:09 AM
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Unfortunately Archduke Georhe has never publicly critisized the new Hungarian Constitution, a constitution which hardly could be considered democratical.That's damaging the image of the Habsburg Dinasty in fron of the world.

Let's return to the problem of the restoration of Monarchy in Austria...
Is there any recent poll about Monarchy or Republic?
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  #31  
Old 07-17-2011, 11:36 AM
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Not sure about this thesis:
Historical Memory and National Identity, Comparison between Austria and Japan

http://www.aspr.ac.at/epu/research/matsuoka.pdf
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  #32  
Old 07-17-2011, 11:54 AM
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We should not forget the members of the Imperial Family were against the nazis and against the communists too.During the second world war Hitler wanted to capture the Habsburgs.
Even today the Habsburs are symbol of the real Austria, an Austria which does not accept totalitarism.
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  #33  
Old 07-17-2011, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Johann Salvator View Post

Another option it would be that Austria forgets all its links with the East and South and joins Germany (its true home) in a new country with a Habsburg monarch and Wien as the capital

Dear Johann Salvator,

May God the Lord prevent us from that!
Not that Austria doesn't belong to Germany (no, not the 1938 way - there has been other history before that), but I highly oppose Your statement that these new Germany should be reigned by a Habsburg. This always has been a problem of the HRE that the Habsburgs made House policy and NOT Reichs policy. So if this should ever happen, and I doubt that very much (because the average German and Austrian can only think back until 1938 and then a possible discussion will stop) the question which house should reign the new Germany is totally open.
No question that this should be a Prussian.... ;-)

Regards

Alex R.
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  #34  
Old 07-17-2011, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Johann Salvator View Post
Another option it would be that Austria forgets all its links with the East and South and joins Germany (its true home) in a new country with a Habsburg monarch and Wien as the capital

Are you kidding???

never ever!!!

Germany is not our true home!!

And restoration of the monarchy in Austria is not discussed here - this just could happen if there will be a totalitarian system again and we will be "freed" by a king??? - no monarchy is gone - at least monarchies as we know until today -
what kind of systems (and there always will be some new ones as history shows) we shall have in future we do not know. This discussion is just vasted time. Sorry, I do not want to offend anybody
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  #35  
Old 07-17-2011, 12:39 PM
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I do not understand why the austrians could not choose constitutional Monarchy.
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  #36  
Old 07-17-2011, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I do not understand why the austrians could not choose constitutional Monarchy.

Why should we?
Our presidents dont have to say a lot and are elected. They sometimes cause trouble but usually its not that important who holds the office.

We are a republic and seriously apart from a few people living in the past and dreaming nobody is thinking, talking or minding monarchy.
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  #37  
Old 07-17-2011, 12:53 PM
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If you are so republican and consider royalists as people who live in the past what are you doing on this Forum?
I do not supposeUk, Netherland Spain, Dennmark, Norway, Belgium, Luxembourg, Monaco...live in the past...on the contrary.
A constitutional Monarchy in Austria would be the past solution.
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  #38  
Old 07-17-2011, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE=Cory;1288055]
If you are so republican and consider royalists as people who live in the past what are you doing on this Forum?
I do not supposeUk, Netherland Spain, Dennmark, Norway, Belgium, Luxembourg, Monaco...live in the past...on the contrary.
A constitutional Monarchy in Austria would be the past solution.
[/QUOTE]


this has nothing to do with my conviction - this has to do with reality.
You cannot compare these countries with Austria, they have a different history and Austria is a republic.
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  #39  
Old 07-17-2011, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Johann Salvator View Post
Another option it would be that Austria forgets all its links with the East and South and joins Germany (its true home) in a new country with a Habsburg monarch and Wien as the capital
Oh no, that will never happen! As much as I would love to have Vienna as the capital instead of ugly Berlin, I don't see any German or Austrian party winning votes for that aim. The Habsburgs were never really rooted in Germany, part of their lands were German speaking countries and most people in public serviuce back then were German speaking but that was at a time before nationalism began. Austria since WWI has positioned itself as an independant state and I don't think they want to loose that. Especially now that the former Habsburg-lands join the EU and Vienna is considered a good place in the center of Europe to do business with Eastern Europe. Plus no other land of the EU would want an even greater Germany, especially not with Austria in it. It is true that a lot of Austrians wanted to joing Germany in 1938 but at the same time it is true that another important part of the population wanted anything but. It was hard for the Austrians to loose their position at the center of Europe in 1918 and it was tough to be a border country against the communist block but since all that ended, Austria more or less blooms as an independant state and I don't think anyone wants to loose that position and become part of the Federal Republic of Germany- as Austria today is a federal state as well, it would end up in that case altogether with the Austrian federal states becoming Federal states of Germany- so finis Austriae, finis Vienna... Oh no!
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  #40  
Old 07-17-2011, 01:34 PM
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No question that this should be a Prussian.... ;-)

.
I agree with you. There is no question that this should be a Prussian because of course this would never be a Prussian. Prussia has brought nothing but problems for Germany, ursurping other German realms like Hannover and forcing the king of Bavaria to war when nobody including the king himself wanted that. Why should Germany want a Prussian king? If it wasn't for Prussia working endlessly towards becoming the first force in the middle of Europe, mostly through war on their neighbors (first Silesia, Poland, Hannover, and finally France) there would never have been a German Empire with a Prussian king at the head who forced Europe into WWI. IMHO, of course.
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