Heirs to the Austrian Throne and House Rules

[Marc23]

No, despite his wife Francesca is merely the daughter of a baron their marriage has been authorized by Archduke Otto and it is considered as equal.

True,strange,but Francesca is noble from both sides of her family...Francesca has descended from Habsburg family through her mother Fiona Frances Elaine Cambell-Walter...in fact from Emperor Rudolf I!

From her father's side she has also descended from many great families such as Esterhazy,Zichy,Bethlen...

Of course,it may not be the reason for treated equal,but still could prove noble ancestry for many generations from both sides of her family!

 

[Cory]

Francesca has the same rank by birth as Sophia Chotek had.

 

[MAfan]

I'd say that Sophie's rank was higher than Francesca's rank, being the former a Countess and the latter a Baroness; but they married in very different times, ruled by deeply different mores, and most of all Archduke Franz Ferdinand was the heir to an actual Empire while Karl (for better or worse) was barely the heir to the headship of the former Imperial Family. That's why Sophie and Franz Ferdinand's marriage was morganatic and Francesca and Karl's was and is regarded as equal.

 

[branchg]

Francesca is not royal or noble.....everyone knows that. Otto dispensed with the House Laws because the monarchy is long over and he believed in a modern democratic society.

 

[Marc23]

Francesca is not royal or noble.....everyone knows that. Otto dispensed with the House Laws because the monarchy is long over and he believed in a modern democratic society.

Well,as a daughter of a Baron,she is noble...and by her ancestry also...

Thyssen family were granted the title of Baron in 1907 by Emperor Franz Josef...

Not that impressive nearest ancestry,but still noble...

As a descendant of Rhedey de Kiss Rhede family,she is also related to the British royals...

Here is her line from the Habsburg family:



Rudolf I von Habsburg,Holy Roman Emperor (1218-1291)
I
Archduchess Mathilde von Habsburg (1253-1304)
I
Ludwig IV von Bayern,Holy Roman Emperor (1288-1347)
I
Prince Albrecht von Bayern,Count von Holland (1336-1404)
I
Princess Margaretha von Bayern (1363-1424)
I
Princess Marie de Burgogne (1394-1463)
I
Princess Katharina von Kleve (1417-1479)
I
Princess Marie of Gueldres-Egmond (1433-1463)
I
James III,King of Scotland (1451-1488)
I
James IV,King of Scotland (1473-1513)
I
Lady Janet Stewart (1508-1563)
I
Lady Margaret Fleming,died in 1587
I
Lady Jean Stewart,died in 1593
I
Jean Campbell,died in 1622
I
George Campbell of Airds
I
John Campbell of Airds,died in 1711
I
Alexander Campbell of Airds
I
Donald Campbell of Airds (1704-1775)
I
John Campbell of Airds
I
Sir John Campbell,7th Baronet of Ardnamurchan (1767-1834)
I
Sir John Campbell,8th Baronet of Ardnamurchan (1807-1853)
I
Lieutenant-Colonel Frederick Campbell (1843-1926)
I
Sir Edward Taswell Campbell,Baronet of Airds (1879-1945)
I
Frances Henriette Campbell,born in 1904
I
FIONA FRANCES ELAINE CAMPBELL-WALTER,born in 1932
I
Baroness FRANCECSA ANNA DOLORES VON Thyssen-Bornemisza de Kaszon et Imperfalva,Archduchess of Austria,born in 1958


It is also interesting to note that Francesca descends also from the other branch of Habsburgs,Habsburg-Laufenburg line as well as from the House of Lorraine,a native House of her husband Archduke Karl...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The consequences faced by Amadeo if his marriage hadn't been approved by Archduke Karl would have been that his children would not have been able to inherit his Imperial and Royal Habsburg titles. None of this would have any legal consequences, but history and tradition is often above the sense of law.

To my knowledge, today the only requirement for a Habsburg marriage to be deemed equal is that the bride marrying in is a Christian.

Have Otto and Karl required each member of their house to personally apply to them for approval of their marriages (if so I wonder about the rate of compliance, particularly for the family branches who are distantly related or have bad relations with the heads of the house), or have they considered it sufficient if the marriage met their conditions?

Have the house rules concerning marriage been applied to the men and their brides only, after the overthrow of the monarchy? Whilst the Habsburgs occupied the throne of Austria-Hungary, the house constitution applied the marriage laws to house members of both genders. Archduchesses' husbands and children did not inherit their imperial and royal titles, no matter if their marriage was dynastic or non-dynastic, but as in many other monarchies of that age, an archduchess who contracted a non-dynastic marriage faced possible consequences for her own title, court precedence and other dynastic rights.

As to the Este branch, much as I would like to see a princely coupling, the pressure must be on poor Amadeo to make a match that will conform to his father's prejudices.

Amedeo has been seen attending nobility balls in Belgium (also attended by members of the Gotha), so he might not have as hard a time meeting someone his father will accept as first thought. His parents will surely bring out every Catholic princess in Germany in an attempt to find him a mate.

When the time is right I am sure AD Amedeo will marry somebody appropriate, it doesn't have to be a brilliant match like his father, but a Limburg-Stirum at the very least .

Still, these are his parents requirements, as said above according to the family laws he can marry any christian woman and keep his 'rights'.

I thought Prince Amedeo communicated in interviews that his parents were pleased with his relationship and marriage with Lili Rosboch (who was "just" a Nobile according to the communiqué sent out by the Belgian royal court to the media when the couple's engagement was announced). Can anyone confirm that?

Otto dispensed with the House Laws because the monarchy is long over and he believed in a modern democratic society.

Neither Otto nor his son and successor Karl dispensed with the house laws or accepted the democratic abolition of the imperial house. They simply relaxed the conditions for a dynastic marriage.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Well,as a daughter of a Baron,she is noble...and by her ancestry also...

Thyssen family were granted the title of Baron in 1907 by Emperor Franz Josef...

Not that impressive nearest ancestry,but still noble...

As a descendant of Rhedey de Kiss Rhede family,she is also related to the British royals...

Here is her line from the Habsburg family:



Rudolf I von Habsburg,Holy Roman Emperor (1218-1291)
I
Archduchess Mathilde von Habsburg (1253-1304)
I
Ludwig IV von Bayern,Holy Roman Emperor (1288-1347)
I
Prince Albrecht von Bayern,Count von Holland (1336-1404)
I
Princess Margaretha von Bayern (1363-1424)
I
Princess Marie de Burgogne (1394-1463)
I
Princess Katharina von Kleve (1417-1479)
I
Princess Marie of Gueldres-Egmond (1433-1463)
I
James III,King of Scotland (1451-1488)
I
James IV,King of Scotland (1473-1513)
I
Lady Janet Stewart (1508-1563)
I
Lady Margaret Fleming,died in 1587
I
Lady Jean Stewart,died in 1593
I
Jean Campbell,died in 1622
I
George Campbell of Airds
I
John Campbell of Airds,died in 1711
I
Alexander Campbell of Airds
I
Donald Campbell of Airds (1704-1775)
I
John Campbell of Airds
I
Sir John Campbell,7th Baronet of Ardnamurchan (1767-1834)
I
Sir John Campbell,8th Baronet of Ardnamurchan (1807-1853)
I
Lieutenant-Colonel Frederick Campbell (1843-1926)
I
Sir Edward Taswell Campbell,Baronet of Airds (1879-1945)
I
Frances Henriette Campbell,born in 1904
I
FIONA FRANCES ELAINE CAMPBELL-WALTER,born in 1932
I
Baroness FRANCECSA ANNA DOLORES VON Thyssen-Bornemisza de Kaszon et Imperfalva,Archduchess of Austria,born in 1958


It is also interesting to note that Francesca descends also from the other branch of Habsburgs,Habsburg-Laufenburg line as well as from the House of Lorraine,a native House of her husband Archduke Karl...

Most of Francesca’s true noble lineage comes from her mother’s family and her mother’s immediate family are Scottish Baronets, Francesca’s father technically bought his nobility by being adopted by the King of Hungary’s Chamberlain who had no sons, but two daughters.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Have Otto and Karl required each member of their house to personally apply to them for approval of their marriages (if so I wonder about the rate of compliance, particularly for the family branches who are distantly related or have bad relations with the heads of the house), or have they considered it sufficient if the marriage met their conditions?

Have the house rules concerning marriage been applied to the men and their brides only, after the overthrow of the monarchy? Whilst the Habsburgs occupied the throne of Austria-Hungary, the house constitution applied the marriage laws to house members of both genders. Archduchesses' husbands and children did not inherit their imperial and royal titles, no matter if their marriage was dynastic or non-dynastic, but as in many other monarchies of that age, an archduchess who contracted a non-dynastic marriage faced possible consequences for her own title, court precedence and other dynastic rights.










I thought Prince Amedeo communicated in interviews that his parents were pleased with his relationship and marriage with Lili Rosboch (who was "just" a Nobile according to the communiqué sent out by the Belgian royal court to the media when the couple's engagement was announced). Can anyone confirm that?




Neither Otto nor his son and successor Karl dispensed with the house laws or accepted the democratic abolition of the imperial house. They simply relaxed the conditions for a dynastic marriage.

Regarding females, they could only inherit if there were no males available and the main Habsburg branch is a cadet of the original male branch, they are actually Habsburg-Lorraine

 

[Kataryn]

Regarding females, they could only inherit if there were no males available and the main Habsburg branch is a cadet of the original male branch, they are actually Habsburg-Lorraine

They are all Habsburg-Lorraines as there wer not male Habsburgs left and all are the result of the marriage of Habsburg-heiress Maria Theresia with the Head of one of the oldest European Houses, Franz Stephan, reigning duke of Lorraine. So whoever carries the Habsburg name nowadays by right, must be a (legitimate or illegitimate) descendant of those two.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Have Otto and Karl required each member of their house to personally apply to them for approval of their marriages (if so I wonder about the rate of compliance, particularly for the family branches who are distantly related or have bad relations with the heads of the house), or have they considered it sufficient if the marriage met their conditions?

Have the house rules concerning marriage been applied to the men and their brides only, after the overthrow of the monarchy? Whilst the Habsburgs occupied the throne of Austria-Hungary, the house constitution applied the marriage laws to house members of both genders. Archduchesses' husbands and children did not inherit their imperial and royal titles, no matter if their marriage was dynastic or non-dynastic, but as in many other monarchies of that age, an archduchess who contracted a non-dynastic marriage faced possible consequences for her own title, court precedence and other dynastic rights.

An interview with the late Otto Habsburg, shared by Duc_et_Pair in another thread, provides the answers to my questions, at least as regards Otto. He did indeed expect each member of the family, including women, to apply to him for permission to marry:

The late Archduke Otto of Austria has lifted almost all requirements except that a partner had to Roman-Catholic.

Archduke Otto himself:

"Wenn ein Familienmitglied heiraten will, fragt er oder sie das Familienoberhaupt um Erlaubnis. Heute tut man das aus Anstand und Höflichkeit. Früher hatte das Konsequenzen, wenn der Ehepartner nicht standesgemäß war. Nun ist das entspannter, unser Familienstatut ist etwas zeitgemäßer."

("If a family member wants to get married, he or she asks the head of the family for permission. Today it is done out of decency and courtesy. In the past, there were consequences if the spouse was not befitting. Now it's more relaxed, our family statute is more contemporary.")

Link

They are all Habsburg-Lorraines as there wer not male Habsburgs left and all are the result of the marriage of Habsburg-heiress Maria Theresia with the Head of one of the oldest European Houses, Franz Stephan, reigning duke of Lorraine. So whoever carries the Habsburg name nowadays by right, must be a (legitimate or illegitimate) descendant of those two.

I believe there are handful of descendants of Empress Maria Theresia and Emperor Franz who carry the sole name of Habsburg. Most carry the full surname of Habsburg-Lothringen while using only Habsburg day-to-day.

However, the Habsburgs who are members of the Belgian royal family are registered with the surname "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" in their legal documents, while the Habsburgs who are members of the Luxembourgian grand-ducal family and the non-royal Belgian nobility have the legal surname of "de Habsbourg-Lorraine".

 

[SirGyamfi1]

They are all Habsburg-Lorraines as there wer not male Habsburgs left and all are the result of the marriage of Habsburg-heiress Maria Theresia with the Head of one of the oldest European Houses, Franz Stephan, reigning duke of Lorraine. So whoever carries the Habsburg name nowadays by right, must be a (legitimate or illegitimate) descendant of those two.

That’s what I meant to say, and thank you for correcting me.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

True,strange,but Francesca is noble from both sides of her family...Francesca has descended from Habsburg family through her mother Fiona Frances Elaine Cambell-Walter...in fact from Emperor Rudolf I!

From her father's side she has also descended from many great families such as Esterhazy,Zichy,Bethlen...

Of course,it may not be the reason for treated equal,but still could prove noble ancestry for many generations from both sides of her family!

That’s only her maternal lines and the marriages from her immediate maternal family are baronets, so certainly not equal. Also the Baronial title of her father was granted through adoption of the King of Hungary’s impoverished chamberlain who had no sons.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

An interview with the late Otto Habsburg, [...]

A correction after a reread: While the interview is about Otto Habsburg, the Habsburg being interviewed is Eduard Habsburg.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Since Eduard Habsburg implies that the Habsburg family rules require women as well as men to ask for permission to marry, and the head of the family Karl Habsburg reportedly has kept the requirement that the spouse be Christian although he has relaxed other requirements, I presume the family head will view the marriage of Princess Maria Laura of Belgium, a Habsburg through her father, to the Jewish William Isvy as non-dynastic.

I am still doubtful that will have any consequences for the princess, even in family circles. The Belgian royal family does not appear to be close to the Habsburg senior line in any case.

HRH's marriage was already approved as dynastic by the King of the Belgians, which is surely what is important to her.

Anyway, going back to Princess Maria Laura, she is not only a Princess of Belgium, but also an Archduchess of Austria-Este, hence a princess of the Austrian Imperial House (one of the bastions of Roman Catholic tradition in Europe). To me at least, the fact that she is marrying someone who is neither royalty nor nobility and, furthermore, is a Jew is a big deal (in a good sense in my opinion), which seems to prove that royals can indeed marry whoever they want nowadays.

These days the senior line and the Austria-Este cadet branch of the Belgian Royal House appear to adhere more closely to Catholic traditions than the senior line of the former imperial house of Austria, judging by Karl's cohabitation with his new partner while separated from his wife and his daughter's civil-only wedding to a divorcé.

 

[JR76]

These days the senior line and the Austria-Este cadet branch of the Belgian Royal House appear to adhere more closely to Catholic traditions than the senior line of the former imperial house of Austria, judging by Karl's cohabitation with his new partner while separated from his wife and his daughter's civil-only wedding to a divorcé.

Karl and Francesca are divorced. Karl told Krone in 2020 that - “Yes, since all of our three children came of age, Francesca and I have been divorced."
Francesca resumed the use of her maiden name in 2019 and when interviewed by the Financial Times in the same year revealed that they had divorced.

I haven't read the articles in question, but they're quoted in the blogsposts below. Eurohistory journal is a reliable source and Marlene is rarely wrong.

http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/2020/11/karl-of-austrias-not-so-secret-divorce.html?m=1

https://eurohistoryjournal.blogspot.com/2020/11/divorce-for-archduke-karl-and.html?m=1

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The krone.at and FT interviews are posted in Karl's thread on this forum. Yes, the couple confirmed their divorce then. I was referring to the years prior to that.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Since Eduard Habsburg implies that the Habsburg family rules require women as well as men to ask for permission to marry, and the head of the family Karl Habsburg reportedly has kept the requirement that the spouse be Christian although he has relaxed other requirements, I presume the family head will view the marriage of Princess Maria Laura of Belgium, a Habsburg through her father, to the Jewish William Isvy as non-dynastic.

I am still doubtful that will have any consequences for the princess, even in family circles. The Belgian royal family does not appear to be close to the Habsburg senior line in any case.

HRH's marriage was already approved as dynastic by the King of the Belgians, which is surely what is important to her.



These days the senior line and the Austria-Este cadet branch of the Belgian Royal House appear to adhere more closely to Catholic traditions than the senior line of the former imperial house of Austria, judging by Karl's cohabitation with his new partner while separated from his wife and his daughter's civil-only wedding to a divorcé.

I can’t find his comment here, but who says royals can’t marry who they like these days?

 

[SirGyamfi1]

To @Mbruno who says royals can’t marry who they like these days?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Clicking on the blue arrow in a quoted comment will take you to the quoted post.

Mbruno's comment implied, as I read it, that people have been saying that royals can marry who they like these days.

If you would like to have a discussion about whether that statement is true, then we should move to another thread to avoid derailing this one.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Clicking on the blue arrow in a quoted comment will take you to the quoted post.

Mbruno's comment implied, as I read it, that people have been saying that royals can marry who they like these days.

If you would like to have a discussion about whether that statement is true, then we should move to another thread to avoid derailing this one.

Thank you.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I wonder who Karl of Habsburg’s son, Ferdinand will marry? I highly doubt he will marry a noble, mediatized or lower nobility. I am sure he will marry a non-noble seeing as house laws are pretty much relaxed and the expectation is that his bride be Christian.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Do you think Archduke Ferdinand will marry a lady from Austria?

 

[victor1319]

Do you think Archduke Ferdinand will marry a lady from Austria?

As we speak, are there any catholic, germanic Princesses left, Ferdinand could marry, even if he wanted?

Marie Caroline from Liechtenstein comes to mind. Elisabeth from Belgium will be a Queen in her own right... But thats basically is. The girls have all married recently or are to young. Right? I have difficulties here...

 

[Blog Real]

I wonder who Karl of Habsburg’s son, Ferdinand will marry? I highly doubt he will marry a noble, mediatized or lower nobility. I am sure he will marry a non-noble seeing as house laws are pretty much relaxed and the expectation is that his bride be Christian.

I think Ferdinand can marry whoever he wants. And perhaps he will marry a woman who is not of the nobility. His family doesn't seem to have strict rules for their marriages.

 

[Kataryn]

IMHO I think that he will marry someone who has what he needs. (Or so I hope). Yes, he is the Habsburg-Lorraine heir but what does that mean nowadays? He is a man who has needs. What do we know? Maybe he needs love, or money or someone who can help his image in the public eye? Maybe he needs a manager for an estate or a mother for a new child? We don't know and thus we cannot say who he might need. But I hope he might find a lady who fills his need and they can be happy ever after. IMHO, of course.

 

[Marengo]

As we speak, are there any catholic, germanic Princesses left, Ferdinand could marry, even if he wanted?

Marie Caroline from Liechtenstein comes to mind. Elisabeth from Belgium will be a Queen in her own right... But thats basically is. The girls have all married recently or are to young. Right? I have difficulties here...

You will find enough of them in the non-reigning houses, there are two Duchesses of Württemberg of the same age for example, there will be Habsburgs of the Tuscan and Hungarian branches, Hohenzollerns, a Wittelsbach, the junior lines of the Liechtenstein family will have a few princesses in his age group etc. And considering his aunt Eilika is a protestant I don't know if the bride actually needs to be catholic.

But the odds that he will be marrying somebody outside the nobility/royalty circles are much higher of course.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

As we speak, are there any catholic, germanic Princesses left, Ferdinand could marry, even if he wanted?

Marie Caroline from Liechtenstein comes to mind. Elisabeth from Belgium will be a Queen in her own right... But thats basically is. The girls have all married recently or are to young. Right? I have difficulties here...

There are plenty of high nobility to marry, he doesn’t have to marry a royal (because the house laws are relaxed and open to anyone). If he wants to marry “well”, he can marry mediatized high nobility. But I highly doubt he will.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Do you think Archduke Ferdinand will marry a lady from Austria?

I don’t think so, but anything can happen.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

IMHO I think that he will marry someone who has what he needs. (Or so I hope). Yes, he is the Habsburg-Lorraine heir but what does that mean nowadays? He is a man who has needs. What do we know? Maybe he needs love, or money or someone who can help his image in the public eye? Maybe he needs a manager for an estate or a mother for a new child? We don't know and thus we cannot say who he might need. But I hope he might find a lady who fills his need and they can be happy ever after. IMHO, of course.

I don’t think money will be one of those needs considering his wealthy mother.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

You will find enough of them in the non-reigning houses, there are two Duchesses of Württemberg of the same age for example, there will be Habsburgs of the Tuscan and Hungarian branches, Hohenzollerns, a Wittelsbach, the junior lines of the Liechtenstein family will have a few princesses in his age group etc. And considering his aunt Eilika is a protestant I don't know if the bride actually needs to be catholic.

But the odds that he will be marrying somebody outside the nobility/royalty circles are much higher of course.

I agree with you on the last part, considering his own father’s marriage and second marriage, I highly doubt he will marry high nobility or royalty. I would be surprised if he married nobility or royalty.