Heirs to the Austrian Throne and House Rules

[fearghas]

I was recently reading an article about the murder of CP RUdolph of Austria (and I beleive it was murder, not suicide, probably done at the instigation of the extremely conservative Austrian Court), and it got me to thinking about the characters of the last four heirs.Rudolph, AD Franz Ferdinand, AD Karl (who all too briefly became Emperor) and AD Otto. All four men were/are extremely liberal in their ideas about people, passionate about their causes and I think could have drastically changed and saved the Empire if hey had been given a chance. I don't know much about their personalities so I thought it would be interestiong to see what others thought that they might have been able to bring to the throne if they had been given a chance.

[maria-olivia]

Would Karl and his wife born Francisca Thyssen be AD Otto's heirs ?

[branchg]

Archduke Karl is Otto's heir as Head of the House.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by branchg

Archduke Karl is Otto's heir as Head of the House.

He is already the head of the House as Otto gave uop this position last year.

[magnik]

Line of succession to the Austro-Hungarian throne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[amedea]

Originally Posted by magnik

Line of succession to the Austro-Hungarian throne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do everybody think that this line of succession is right?
A quite sure error is that Christoph before Lorenz.. but then we have also to exclude everyone born from a commoner mother, right?
And the marriages with aristocratic girls done before 1990s are to consider dynastic too (for example is Simeon a true archduke?)? And Ligne family is a mediatised or an aristocratic house?

[MAfan]

I don't know this Christoph; the only one is the son of Carl Christian and Marie Astrid, born in 1988.
Not all born from a commoner mother are to exclude; for example, the sons of the late Archduke Raimund and his Wife Archduchess Bettine, nèe Gotz.
Simeon married the daughter of Infante Carlos of Spain and his wife Anna, nèe Princesse de Orleans; his marriage is not only dynastic, but also an equal one.
Ligne family is a mediatized one, but in Belgium is considered an aristocratic one (I think the most important after the Royal Family).

[Marengo]

Archduke Otto has dropped the rule that members of the house need to marry equally or noble at least, so children born from a couple that married after the AD changed his position would be considered dynasts (those of before not).

[amedea]

when did the rules change allowing marriages with nobles? and when did AD changed this rule allowing also marriages with commoners?
my doubts on AD Simeon were about his father marriages with noble ladies.
my doubts on Ligne family were due to the fact that Paul Theroff's site doesn't mark them with the asterisk used for mediatised houses
can I express discontent for AD Otto decisions? Am I the only one?

[claypoint2]

The website below says that the princely house of Ligne was mediatised in 1806, but I don't know anything about the provenance of the site or whether it is reliable.

Belgium Guide - Dukes and princes of Belgium

[Marengo]

The family is not listed in the second part of the Almanach de Gotha, (which contains the mediatised houses), but only in the 3rd part, which lists the highest nobility. The text in the almanach de Gotha only says that in 1788 they also became incorperated as counts in Westphalia while in 1923 they received the prefix of 'Highness'.

The family would have been mediatised as they owned property in the holy roman emprie, which they ruled. But in 1804 they sold it to the Esterhazy family. However in terms of prestige the de Ligne family ranks higher than many mediatised houses (but that is IMO perhaps). Eugene de Ligne was initially offered the Belgian crown!

Note that the family, belongs to the so called 'Salon Bleu'. The salon bleu is a salon in the royal palace of Brussels. The king would receive the high nobility there. The members of a few families were allowed to 'tutoyer' the king and his family. There are 8 families of the salon bleu:

- Princes de Ligne
- Princes de Merode
- Princes de Chimey
- Princes Lobkovicz
- Princes d'Aremberg
- Dukes of Croÿ-Solre
- Dukes de Looz Corswarem
- Dukes d'Ursel

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by amedea

when did the rules change allowing marriages with nobles? and when did AD changed this rule allowing also marriages with commoners?
my doubts on AD Simeon were about his father marriages with noble ladies.
my doubts on Ligne family were due to the fact that Paul Theroff's site doesn't mark them with the asterisk used for mediatised houses
can I express discontent for AD Otto decisions? Am I the only one?

It is not know when it was changed. it has to be sometimges in the late 90's/early 200='s as the maarige of Archduke Ramon in 1994 was not equal but the marriages of Archdukes Philipp and Konrad in 2005 and 2006 where approved. Apparently the only provision now is that the bride if family a christian faith.

[MAfan]

But in 1993 the wedding of the Kronprinz Karl to Baroness Francesca von Thyssen-Bornemizsa was approved, and this scandalized Archdukes Felix and Carl Ludwig...and the children of all the Archdukes descendants from Emperor Charles I and his brother Maximilian are styled as Archdukes, also the children of the late Archduke Raimund.

Sorry, only a grandson of Archduke Felix is not recognised as Archduke, and he is the little Julien, eldest son of Archduke Karl Philipp, because he was born before his parents' marriage, in 1994.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by MAfan

But in 1993 the wedding of the Kronprinz Karl to Baroness Francesca von Thyssen-Bornemizsa was approved, and this scandalized Archdukes Felix and Carl Ludwig...and the children of all the Archdukes descendants from Emperor Charles I and his brother Maximilian are styled as Archdukes, also the children of the late Archduke Raimund.

From where do you have the Information that Ramon's marriage was approved as equal? As for Francesca she was no commoner. She was a Baroness not from high nobility but at last no Commoner. Until the recent Change the bride had to be noble abnd then the marriage was approved.

[MAfan]

In Paul Teroff's website nothing is written about a morganatic marriage of Ramon; moreover in this site (Archduke Ramon passed away yesterday), a thread of a forum about the death of Archduke Raimund, Raimund's choldren are referred as Archdukes, and it talks about new family laws signed in 1990.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by MAfan

In Paul Teroff's website nothing is written about a morganatic marriage of Ramon; moreover in this site (Archduke Ramon passed away yesterday), a thread of a forum about the death of Archduke Raimund, Raimund's choldren are referred as Archdukes, and it talks about new family laws signed in 1990.

Yes but on this Website they are referred to as Counts. They where also listed as Counts in one of the recent GHdA's. The law in 1990 was theat descendants of morgantic marriges where upgraded to Count/Countess of Haburg-Lothringen.

[MAfan]

Well, now I don't know what to think...
Please, if someone knows exactly the status of them, tell us it!

[claypoint2]

Originally Posted by Marengo

The family is not listed in the second part of the Almanach de Gotha, (which contains the mediatised houses), but only in the 3rd part, which lists the highest nobility. The text in the almanach de Gotha only says that in 1788 they also became incorperated as counts in Westphalia while in 1923 they received the prefix of 'Highness'.

The family would have been mediatised as they owned property in the holy roman emprie, which they ruled. But in 1804 they sold it to the Esterhazy family. However in terms of prestige the de Ligne family ranks higher than many mediatised houses (but that is IMO perhaps). Eugene de Ligne was initially offered the Belgian crown!

Note that the family, belongs to the so called 'Salon Bleu'. The salon bleu is a salon in the royal palace of Brussels. The king would receive the high nobility there. The members of a few families were allowed to 'tutoyer' the king and his family. There are 8 families of the salon bleu:

- Princes de Ligne
- Princes de Merode
- Princes de Chimey
- Princes Lobkovicz
- Princes d'Aremberg
- Dukes of Croÿ-Solre
- Dukes de Looz Corswarem
- Dukes d'Ursel

Thanks very much for all the above information, Marengo. And I agree with you.... I always had the impression that the two marriages between the Orleans-Bragance and the Ligne siblings (Antonio d'Orleans-Bragance and Christine de Ligne, Eleonore d'Orleans-Bragance and Michel de Ligne) were considered very good by both sides -- perhaps even equal.

[fearghas]

They are considered equal. The young man who tragically died in the airline crash was considered the heir to the Brazillian throne, after his uncle and father.

[maria-olivia]

I spoke at the moment with HRH the Princess Alix de Ligne/Luxembourg and she was VERY happy and pride for both weddings.
I remember Princess Alix always remain HRH and her late husband HH Prince de Ligne.
Now HH Prince Michel de Ligne and HRH Princess Eleonore de Ligne.
The weddings were not totally equal..
Prince Antoine de Ligne (father) was Knight of the (Toison d' Or) translation gulden vlies ?? but not Prince Michel.
Only 3 members of the belgian nobility were knights of the Austrian Order , now ??.