Habsburg Titles

[Lalla Meriem]

Speaking of titles, I just noticed that in the information that is released by the Luxembourg government about the Grand Ducal Family that CC is listed as Archduke of Austria and Prince of Bar. I am unfamiliar with the Bar title and I don't believe it is a traditional part of the titles of an Archduke.

Can someone clarify this information for me?

[MAfan]

The head of the Family bear the title of Duke of Bar, one of the titles of the Dukes of Lorraine; this was the title used by Archduke Otto when in exile in Belgium, if I remember correctly he was registered at the university of Louvain as Otto, Duke of Bar; he also has been referred as Duke of bar in several other occasions.
But I don't know if the title is extended to the other members of the Imperial Family.

[Lalla Meriem]

Originally Posted by MAfan

The head of the Family bear the title of Duke of Bar, one of the titles of the Dukes of Lorraine; this was the title used by Archduke Otto when in exile in Belgium, if I remember correctly he was registered at the university of Louvain as Otto, Duke of Bar; he also has been referred as Duke of bar in several other occasions.
But I don't know if the title is extended to the other members of the Imperial Family.

The title you are referring to is Bale not Bar.

[amedea]

Originally Posted by Lalla Meriem

The title you are referring to is Bale not Bar.

No, MAfan is right, it is Bar, an ancient possession of the House of Lorraine. Bale, the french name for Basel, was an indipendent prince-bishopric until Napoleon and since 1815 is under Switzerland. So it would be very strange a title like that for the Habsburgs.

[Lalla Meriem]

Originally Posted by amedea

No, MAfan is right, it is Bar, an ancient possession of the House of Lorraine. Bale, the french name for Basel, was an indipendent prince-bishopric until Napoleon and since 1815 is under Switzerland. So it would be very strange a title like that for the Habsburgs.

They used Bale not Bar in Belgium. At least, Otto and Zita did.

Ironically enough, I believe today is the anniversary of Zita's arrival in Belgium.

[MAfan]

I quote from the biography of Otto written by Flavia Foradini, "Otto d'Asburgo - L'ultimo atto di una dinastia":
"Presso l'Università di Louvain [...] Otto viene iscritto ad un corso di filosofia [...]. L'iscrizione è sotto il nome di Othon, Duc de Bar, uno dei titoli dei sovrani Asburgo"
It says that Otto attended a course of Phylosophy at the University of Louvain, and that he was registered under the name of Othon, Duc de Bar (= Otto, Duke of Bar), one of the titles of the Sovereign of Habsburg Family.
Later in the book the author adds that since the time of Franz I of Lorraine, husband of Maria Teresa, the Emperor bears the title of Duke of Lorraine and Bar.

[Lalla Meriem]

I appreciate the correction. I have never saw Otto or Zita with Bar attributed to them.

Back to the original question why would CC have Prince of Bar attributed to him? I've never saw this listed among the traditional titles of an "ordinary" archduke. Although, I admit my interest/obsession with Habsbourgs hasn't reach aficionado status yet.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Lalla Meriem

I appreciate the correction. I have never saw Otto or Zita with Bar attributed to them.

Back to the original question why would CC have Prince of Bar attributed to him? I've never saw this listed among the traditional titles of an "ordinary" archduke. Although, I admit my interest/obsession with Habsbourgs hasn't reach aficionado status yet.

At the funeral of Grand Duchess Joséphine Charlotte Otto and Rgina where also named Duke and Duchess of Bar on the official Guestlist. Also the Pierre Dillenburg who commented on TV called them Duke and Duchess of Bar.

[Lalla Meriem]

Originally Posted by Stefan

At the funeral of Grand Duchess Joséphine Charlotte Otto and Rgina where also named Duke and Duchess of Bar on the official Guestlist. Also the Pierre Dillenburg who commented on TV called them Duke and Duchess of Bar.

Perhaps since Carl Christian is listed as Prince of Bar in the docent about the Grand Ducal Family and Otto and Regina are Duke and Duchess of Bar these are Luxembourg titles or are the officially recognized titles in Luxembourg?

[MAfan]

In the very same book, it is written that when Archduchess Gabriela was born in Luxemburg in 1956, Otto asked and obtained for her to be registered as "Archduchess of Austria, Royal Princess of Hungary" in the register of births, while in Germany, when his other children were born, he asked but it was refused him.
So I wonder if in Luxembourg the titles of Archduke of Austria and Prince of Hungary are recognised or not...

[claypoint2]

Here is a note from the French Wikipedia concerning the title of Duke/Duchess of Bar (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duch%C3%A9_de_Bar):

"La dernière impératrice d'Autriche, Zita de Bourbon-Parme, porta durant son long exil (1918-1989) le titre de 'duchesse de Bar' et c'est avec ce titre, inscrit sur son passeport qu'elle put regagner l'Autriche pour une courte visite en 1982.
Son fils l'archiduc Otto de Habsbourg-Lorraine a également repris ce titre, son père lui ayant conseillé sur son lit de mort :'N'oubliez jamais la Lorraine.'"


English translation: "During her long exile (1918-1989), the last empress of Austria, Zita of Bourbon-Parma, carried the title 'Duchess of Bar,' and it was with this title inscribed in her passport that she was able to re-enter Austria for a short visit in 1982. Her son Archduke Otto of Austria also used this title, his father having counseled him on his deathbed: 'Never forget the Lorraine.'"

[Lalla Meriem]

Originally Posted by claypoint2

his father having counseled him on his deathbed: 'Never forget the Lorraine.'"

Perhaps also why they retain Lorraine as part of their surname. I hardly ever find a Habsburg listing him or herself as just de or von Habsburg I usually see Habsbourg-Lorraine or Habsburg-Lothringen. Some branches don't use Lorraine but all those descendants of Karl and Zita seem to prefer it.

The Emperor must have said a lot on his death bed to various members of his family. I've saw no less than 10 different quotes for his final words.

[claypoint2]

Originally Posted by Lalla Meriem

The Emperor must have said a lot on his death bed to various members of his family. I've saw no less than 10 different quotes for his final words.

Indeed!

[MAfan]

As far as I know, he wanted Otto on his deathbed, as well as Zita; their other children were too young, and no more members then them were in Madeira when the Emperor died; maybe some servant, but...not so many family members, I guess.