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  #21  
Old 10-20-2009, 04:14 AM
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Speaking of titles, I just noticed that in the information that is released by the Luxembourg government about the Grand Ducal Family that CC is listed as Archduke of Austria and Prince of Bar. I am unfamiliar with the Bar title and I don't believe it is a traditional part of the titles of an Archduke.

Can someone clarify this information for me?
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  #22  
Old 10-20-2009, 04:44 AM
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The head of the Family bear the title of Duke of Bar, one of the titles of the Dukes of Lorraine; this was the title used by Archduke Otto when in exile in Belgium, if I remember correctly he was registered at the university of Louvain as Otto, Duke of Bar; he also has been referred as Duke of bar in several other occasions.
But I don't know if the title is extended to the other members of the Imperial Family.
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  #23  
Old 10-20-2009, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
The head of the Family bear the title of Duke of Bar, one of the titles of the Dukes of Lorraine; this was the title used by Archduke Otto when in exile in Belgium, if I remember correctly he was registered at the university of Louvain as Otto, Duke of Bar; he also has been referred as Duke of bar in several other occasions.
But I don't know if the title is extended to the other members of the Imperial Family.
The title you are referring to is Bale not Bar.
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  #24  
Old 10-20-2009, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Lalla Meriem View Post
The title you are referring to is Bale not Bar.
No, MAfan is right, it is Bar, an ancient possession of the House of Lorraine. Bale, the french name for Basel, was an indipendent prince-bishopric until Napoleon and since 1815 is under Switzerland. So it would be very strange a title like that for the Habsburgs.
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  #25  
Old 10-20-2009, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by amedea View Post
No, MAfan is right, it is Bar, an ancient possession of the House of Lorraine. Bale, the french name for Basel, was an indipendent prince-bishopric until Napoleon and since 1815 is under Switzerland. So it would be very strange a title like that for the Habsburgs.
They used Bale not Bar in Belgium. At least, Otto and Zita did.

Ironically enough, I believe today is the anniversary of Zita's arrival in Belgium.
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  #26  
Old 10-20-2009, 05:33 AM
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I quote from the biography of Otto written by Flavia Foradini, "Otto d'Asburgo - L'ultimo atto di una dinastia":
"Presso l'Università di Louvain [...] Otto viene iscritto ad un corso di filosofia [...]. L'iscrizione è sotto il nome di Othon, Duc de Bar, uno dei titoli dei sovrani Asburgo"
It says that Otto attended a course of Phylosophy at the University of Louvain, and that he was registered under the name of Othon, Duc de Bar (= Otto, Duke of Bar), one of the titles of the Sovereign of Habsburg Family.
Later in the book the author adds that since the time of Franz I of Lorraine, husband of Maria Teresa, the Emperor bears the title of Duke of Lorraine and Bar.
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  #27  
Old 10-20-2009, 05:41 AM
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I appreciate the correction. I have never saw Otto or Zita with Bar attributed to them.

Back to the original question why would CC have Prince of Bar attributed to him? I've never saw this listed among the traditional titles of an "ordinary" archduke. Although, I admit my interest/obsession with Habsbourgs hasn't reach aficionado status yet.
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  #28  
Old 10-20-2009, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalla Meriem View Post
I appreciate the correction. I have never saw Otto or Zita with Bar attributed to them.

Back to the original question why would CC have Prince of Bar attributed to him? I've never saw this listed among the traditional titles of an "ordinary" archduke. Although, I admit my interest/obsession with Habsbourgs hasn't reach aficionado status yet.
At the funeral of Grand Duchess Joséphine Charlotte Otto and Rgina where also named Duke and Duchess of Bar on the official Guestlist. Also the Pierre Dillenburg who commented on TV called them Duke and Duchess of Bar.
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  #29  
Old 10-20-2009, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
At the funeral of Grand Duchess Joséphine Charlotte Otto and Rgina where also named Duke and Duchess of Bar on the official Guestlist. Also the Pierre Dillenburg who commented on TV called them Duke and Duchess of Bar.
Perhaps since Carl Christian is listed as Prince of Bar in the docent about the Grand Ducal Family and Otto and Regina are Duke and Duchess of Bar these are Luxembourg titles or are the officially recognized titles in Luxembourg?
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  #30  
Old 10-20-2009, 07:39 AM
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In the very same book, it is written that when Archduchess Gabriela was born in Luxemburg in 1956, Otto asked and obtained for her to be registered as "Archduchess of Austria, Royal Princess of Hungary" in the register of births, while in Germany, when his other children were born, he asked but it was refused him.
So I wonder if in Luxembourg the titles of Archduke of Austria and Prince of Hungary are recognised or not...
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  #31  
Old 11-09-2009, 09:40 PM
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Here is a note from the French Wikipedia concerning the title of Duke/Duchess of Bar (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duch%C3%A9_de_Bar):

"La dernière impératrice d'Autriche, Zita de Bourbon-Parme, porta durant son long exil (1918-1989) le titre de 'duchesse de Bar' et c'est avec ce titre, inscrit sur son passeport qu'elle put regagner l'Autriche pour une courte visite en 1982.
Son fils l'archiduc Otto de Habsbourg-Lorraine a également repris ce titre, son père lui ayant conseillé sur son lit de mort :'N'oubliez jamais la Lorraine.'"


English translation: "During her long exile (1918-1989), the last empress of Austria, Zita of Bourbon-Parma, carried the title 'Duchess of Bar,' and it was with this title inscribed in her passport that she was able to re-enter Austria for a short visit in 1982. Her son Archduke Otto of Austria also used this title, his father having counseled him on his deathbed: 'Never forget the Lorraine.'"
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  #32  
Old 11-09-2009, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by claypoint2 View Post
his father having counseled him on his deathbed: 'Never forget the Lorraine.'"
Perhaps also why they retain Lorraine as part of their surname. I hardly ever find a Habsburg listing him or herself as just de or von Habsburg I usually see Habsbourg-Lorraine or Habsburg-Lothringen. Some branches don't use Lorraine but all those descendants of Karl and Zita seem to prefer it.

The Emperor must have said a lot on his death bed to various members of his family. I've saw no less than 10 different quotes for his final words.
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  #33  
Old 11-10-2009, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Lalla Meriem View Post
The Emperor must have said a lot on his death bed to various members of his family. I've saw no less than 10 different quotes for his final words.

Indeed!
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  #34  
Old 11-10-2009, 10:10 AM
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As far as I know, he wanted Otto on his deathbed, as well as Zita; their other children were too young, and no more members then them were in Madeira when the Emperor died; maybe some servant, but...not so many family members, I guess.
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  #35  
Old 11-21-2010, 11:15 AM
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At the risk of reopening a long dormant thread, I have a few questions regarding the titles of the Habsburgs.
  • I think I know the answer to this already: All children of a Habsburg Emperor are ranked as ‘archdukes and archduchesses?” Previously I had thought that ‘Archduke of Austria’ went to the eldest son much like Prince of Wales and Prince of Asturias are for England and Spain.
  • Does archduke rank as equal to a kingship title? So, did ever a Habsburg Archduke of Austria rank as ‘equal’ to that of a kingship before the declaration of the Austrian Empire in 1804?
  • This is purely speculative, but would Austria restore their monarchy but as an Archduchy? Would the current pretender take that as his current title without the 'imperial dignities'? Or at least not press them?
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  #36  
Old 11-21-2010, 04:34 PM
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I will defer to those more knowledgeable than I. My understanding, however, is that all children of the Emperor were archdukes/duchesses. I do not think there was a title for the heir analogous to Prince of Wales.

I do not think archduke equals a king in rank. The title of archduke is limited to the Habsburgs and was definitely inferior to a reigning sovereign.

Only part of modern day Austria was an archduchy. The Archduchy of Austria consisted of today's Upper and Lower Austria, more or less. The other areas were duchies and crownlands. As much as I would love to see a restoration in Austria, to speculate on titles and dignities for a monarch in present day Austria is just too outlandish. I hope that that will change.
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Old 11-21-2010, 05:14 PM
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Harold is right; all the members of the Imperial Family born from an equal marriage and their "equal" wifes are/were Archduke/Archduchess and Prince(ss) Imperial of Austria, with the style of Imperial Highness (Imperial and Royal since they also bear/bore the titles of Royal Princes of Hungary and Bohemia).
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  #38  
Old 11-21-2010, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Harold View Post
I do not think there was a title for the heir analogous to Prince of Wales.
There was a title for Heir apparent...Rudolf was also Crown Prince as well as the archduke...
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  #39  
Old 02-04-2011, 11:02 AM
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Post kind request - info about Baron title

Hello all,

I am happy to find there is such a website and forum, especially in English because I need your help.

I am from Romania, the translator/interpret for an American friend, who is the grandson, descendant, of the Baron Neumann, Austrian who lived in the 1850s.
I know this title is inherited usually, but because the Royal House of Austria did not exist in the 20th century, his father was not made Baron, and he lost his title.
As I know from my research, this title is inherited, or if there is such a gap between 2 generations I'm not sure how and if the grandson could be awarded this title again.
I think it should be awarded by a living member of the Royal/Duke/Nobility that still exists today, who has to be from the same country his grandfather was, and in a ceremony.
He has all the papers proving his nobility and origins, but he would like to have this title as well because he considers it is a high honor to be the descendant of such nobility.

My question for you is...how can enter in contact with one or several members of the Austrian Nobility, still alive today, and I saw there are plenty...I don't know German or Austrian language, and I would really like to help him regain his title, if possible of course.

So if you can give me any hints, email address of royal secretary houses or anything that could be useful to enter in contact with them I would highly appreciate!

Thank you!
Anca
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  #40  
Old 02-13-2011, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Harold View Post

I do not think archduke equals a king in rank. The title of archduke is limited to the Habsburgs and was definitely inferior to a reigning sovereign.

Only part of modern day Austria was an archduchy. The Archduchy of Austria consisted of today's Upper and Lower Austria, more or less. The other areas were duchies and crownlands. As much as I would love to see a restoration in Austria, to speculate on titles and dignities for a monarch in present day Austria is just too outlandish. I hope that that will change.
Here you find more information about the development of the "Archducal House" of Habsburg/Austria:

The World of the Habsburgs - Almost a crown: The Austrian archducal coronet


From the text:
The prefix ‘arch-’ always signifies pre-eminent status: just as an archbishop ranks above a bishop, the archduke came before the normal dukes in the realm. The title stems from the forged Privilegium Maius commissioned by Duke Rudolf IV of Habsburg in 1359, and is regarded as a reaction to the Golden Bull of Emperor Charles IV, which laid down the modalities of the election and coronation of the Holy Roman and German kings – and denied the Habsburgs an electoral vote. The young and ambitious Rudolf was prepared to forge documents in order to consolidate his dynasty’s status and created the title of Archduke of Austria. This underscored the special status of the Habsburgs as being directly after the electors, but before the other imperial princes.

More about how the forgery was detected, dealt with and how it happened that the Archducal House became legitimate... follow the link.
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