Double-engagement in the House of Habsburg: Christoph & Adelaide; Imre & Kathleen


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claypoint2 said:
:previous: Yes, Al Bina. But I doubt very much that Grand Duke Henri defends the Spanish Inquisition or actively advocates denying the Sacrament to anyone. Miss Walker's position suffers from a sense of moral certainty and superiority, whereas Grand Duke Henri and his wife, Maria Teresa, strike me as people who try to live as faithful Catholics with humility and compassion for others.
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Nor would he try to take an institution's Catholic status away cause Obama gave a speech there. Plus there is another article where she attacks Catholic clergy and institutions for working with a hospital that does not perform abortion or even refer women for them but it could potentially refer someone for one. GD Henri did try to veto a euthanasia bill but I think he learnt not to interfere from that. His son HGD Guillaume said he would not ever try to force his beliefs like that. Belgium was also one of the first countries to allow gay marriage. So all in all, mostly ones not to interfere or show activism.

The Golden rule of Christianity is to treat others as you would want to be treated - compassion. The bible also celebrates the good deeds and compassion of others who do not share your beliefs or religion such as the Good Samaritan.

While she has been raised with misconceptions, some of her beliefs regarding euthanasia, premarital sex and abortion would be shared with Imre's family. It is not her beliefs but her activism that is really more of an issue. I suspect she will have to be less vocal and active, and instead become a good wife and mother. Maybe they can channel her energies somewhere else to teach her compassion such as working with unwed mothers.
 
claypoint2 said:
Regardless of whether or not one agrees with Miss Walker's points of view, the rigidity of her stance does not bode well for her psychological well-being or that of her family. Hers is a good example of black-and-white thinking, in which things and people are deemed "all good" (e.g., the Church and everything it does) or "all bad" (e.g., anyone who challenges or merely questions those positions). It's a form of dichotomous thinking, as Al Bina points out above.

The technical name in psychology is "splitting," and it is considered a primitive defense mechanism. Among other things, it suggests a limited capacity for compassion, given that compassion is based on an ability to entertain and try to understand - from the inside - the complexity and richness of human experience. Jesus Christ was a wonderful embodiment of compassion. By contrast, Miss Walker seems compelled to reduce many things to simple, rigid, black-and-white precepts that must followed blindly... otherwise, a person is to be condemned and excluded (by refusing them Holy Communion, for example).

Sadly, she reminds me of why people say that some elements in Roman Catholicism are essentially the Pharisees of Christianity. They think that it's all about rigid adherence to rules, but they lose the Spirit in the process.
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Thank you for a lovely post that expresses what I wanted to express and couldn't in a manner that was nearly that polite or accurate. I haven't posted in this thread because years of frequenting internet forums have taught me that things quickly get out of hand when these subjects are debated, but I should have known that Royal Forums posters would show a little more decorum and class when talking about these issues :flowers:

I agree that Miss Walker does not sound like someone that I personally would care to be acquainted with, and I think that perhaps it might be healthier for the family if this particular marriage doesn't come to pass. We'll see. I also think Miss Walker's views reflect her upbringing- it's a type of fundamentalism that flourishes in the southern United States. It's not compatible with the grace or tact she'd need to exhibit as a member of a royal family, so it's probably very good that they're not a reigning house. I hope that she is at least aware that it wouldn't be proper for her to use her husband's name and title to promote her personal agenda.
 
claypoint2 said:
:previous: Yes, Al Bina. But I doubt very much that Grand Duke Henri defends the Spanish Inquisition or actively advocates denying the Sacrament to anyone. Miss Walker's positions suffer from a sense of moral certainty and superiority, whereas Grand Duke Henri and his wife, Maria Teresa, strike me as people who try to live as faithful Catholics with humility and compassion for others.
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And the best proof is that they truly accepted Gabriel as their grandchild from the moment they knew he was to be born, and didn't put pression on Louis and Tessy to marry immediately; they didn't consider having a grandchild born out of wedlock a shame.
 
We are speaking about 2 Engagements and I hope Archduke Imre will not cancel his after
reading the Royal Forums !
 
I personally wonder what Archduke Otto would have said to the views of the latest addition to the family of which he was Head. He was a devout Catholic but he was delighted in the complexity of life (a trait the current pope shared with him!) and disliked people who were a bit simple minded when it cames to other people.
 
forgive me, but i see the the hereditary grand duke of Luxemburg in some pictures. is he related to these people?
Im so sorry for my ignorance
 
Yes, he is first cousin of Imre and Christoph.
 
Guillaumne wasn't there but his brothers and sister were. Gui's father and Imre&Christoph's mother are siblings.
 
Glad to see Queen Fabiola close friend to Archduchess Carl Ludwig born Princess Yolande de Ligne.
Marie Astrid looks like her mother with a more smiling face. I presume Grand Duke Jean does not travel anymore; he didn’t attend his sister Elisabeth’s funerals.
 
HRHHermione said:
..... I also think Miss Walker's views reflect her upbringing- it's a type of fundamentalism that flourishes in the southern United States. It's not compatible with the grace or tact she'd need to exhibit as a member of a royal family, so it's probably very good that they're not a reigning house. I hope that she is at least aware that it wouldn't be proper for her to use her husband's name and title to promote her personal agenda.
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Oh my, that's the highest horse I've seen yet here in the forums!
 
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:previous: No need for personal attacks if the aim is to continue a respectful conversation, no? Hermione was expressing her opinion, with which you of course can agree or disagree. But, needless to say, she also has a right to express her point of view without being subjected to ad hominem attacks.
 
Personal attacks claypoint2? Most of the people who have commented here about Katie Walker, including you, have no right to lecture anyone about personal attacks, as most people have been judging her, accusing her of being "very extreme" or similar lines, such as "fundamentalist." Above, someone accused her of being affiliated with anti-abortion terrorists when that is just false, and you didn't speak out after that posting. You didn't speak out when someone posted and said "I am happy she is not the Pope." You even psychoanalyzed about her "rigidity," said she was closed-minded, and hinted that she was akin to the Pharisees. What right do you have to do such a thing? You say she isn't compassionate, and it just shows you don't have a clue about what you're talking about.

I thought it right, as someone who knows her, to register on this forum and speak up for her. Katie has every right to have her views and be an activist for her causes. I happen to agree with her. You are the ones who are being judgmental, who are badmouthing her, even some to the point to hoping that she doesn't get married to Archduke Imre. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I wish them all the best.

PS - HRHHermione - Katie isn't from the southern U.S.
 
MJLB, I understand your frustration and anger on behalf of your friend, but I don't believe that anything I have posted qualifies as a personal attack on Miss Walker. When I offer a psychological viewpoint based on direct videotape of the subject, I am offering an impression based on my knowledge of the field. Rather than aiming to attack her, my wish has been to try to understand and describe her, as I made clear in a post in which I mentioned understanding "her human experience." But it's also true that the videotape evidence, as it has surfaced, does not make her look good. If she is indeed a compassionate person, what happens to that capacity for compassion and complexity when she thinks privately about these issues or when she speaks in public?

I am genuinely sorry if it's jarring and painful for you to witness other people's reactions to how she comes across on video. For whatever it's worth, I was initially delighted when the engagement was announced, and I very much wanted to like her. But defending the Spanish Inquisition, really? Even Pope John Paul II apologized for it. But, then again, based on what has surfaced, it wouldn't surprise me if Miss Walker took issue with that apology, as some of the more extreme elements in Roman Catholicism have done.
 
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MJLB74 said:
Personal attacks claypoint2? Most of the people who have commented here about Katie Walker, including you, have no right to lecture anyone about personal attacks...
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It's not that we are personally attacking her, we are analyzing her as a future royal, which she is not fit to be. A royal must represent equally and fairly all viewpoints of the people of the country they reign, or in this case reigned. A perfect example is Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia who is a Christian but calls for peace amongst all faiths in his country. A royal is not suppose to express openly such views which would and can make people from their country feel angered, all though it does happen, normally the royal does not do so with the intent to offend and anger, but it seems Ms. Walker does express her views with the exact purpose of angering and offending people, and before you say she does not, someone who says the Spanish Inquisition was a good thing, is saying we should kill people with different views, which will clearly anger and offend people.
 
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claypoint2 said:
I am genuinely sorry if it's jarring and painful for you to hear other people's reactions to how she comes across on video. For whatever it's worth, I was initially delighted when the engagement was announced, and I very much wanted to like her. But defending the Spanish Inquisition, really? Even Pope John Paul II apologized for it.
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Yes, I agree. I'd also point out that when we criticize a person who is the subject of a thread, it's topic relevant- we come here to discuss the various royal families and that sometimes includes criticism. Ms. Walker is not present in this thread, she's what we came here to discuss (as we would any other public figure) and not in a way that's intended to be cruel.

Also, the organization Ms. Walker worked for was in fact affiliated with anti-abortion terrorists. The person who posted that made it VERY clear that she was in no way implying that Ms. Walker herself had anything to do with those unfortunate events, just noting that she worked for the organization that spawned that movement. It's a fair point.

And I couldn't find biographical information about where Ms. Walker was born, I just noted that the view points she supports are very prevalent in the southern United States. She went to college in Kentucky, right? She may not be from there, but she has certainly been influenced by fundamentalism in American politics.
 
P.S. I have re-read my posts, and I can understand why my comment about some elements in Roman Catholicism being like the Pharisees could be interpreted as an attack on Miss Walker, even if that honestly wasn't my intention. I will admit to that, and I will also stand by my comment.
 
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From my reading of the thread most of the things that members have criticised or found distasteful have come from Ms Walker's own mouth.
 
:previous:
It is really nice to see you, Warren, joining the discussion. It would be fair to assume that Ms. Walker could not know that her ardent speeches would be dissected by the royal watchers. Furthermore her proclamations tend to lack diplomatic wording.
 
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Al bina said:
It is really nice to see you, Warren, joining the discussion.
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Just lightly. :)
.
 
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I am wondering about the identity of a few people in the group photo. Who is the short, older woman standing next to Archduke Rudolphe's wife? And what about the couple standing between Christophe and Kathleen (the woman is wearing a rust color outfit)? Are they the parents of Kathleen or of Adelaide?

It is nice to see that Christophe and Imre are supported by so many of their cousins. It looks like Prince Jean's three sons are there, as well as four of Henri's children (where is Tessie?), and some children of Rudolphe. Both Yolande and Queen Fabiola look wonderful! Marie-Astrid and Carl-Christian are a lovely couple. I wonder if they held a joint anouncement to downplay the suitability of Kathleen. Did Marie-Astrid and Margarethe have a joint engagement anouncement? I know they were married within six weeks of one another.
 
claypoint2 said:
For the record, members of the Habsburg-Lothringen family have held elected office as a result of democratic processes (e.g., the late Archduke Otto and the current head of House, Archduke Karl). In fact, obituaries for Archduke Otto called him "a champion of a democratic Europe."
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Another one - as she is referred in wiki:

Walburga Habsburg Douglas, Countess Douglas (born 5 October 1958) is a German-born Swedish lawyer and politician, currently serving as a member of the Parliament of Sweden for the ruling Moderate Party (since 2006). She is also the Vice President of the Paneuropean Union and a board member of the Institute for Information on the Crimes of Communism. A member of the House of Habsburg, she is also known as Archduchess Walburga of Austria, Archduchess and Princess Imperial of Austria, Princess Royal of Hungary and Bohemia, Countess Douglas, with the style Her Imperial and Royal Highness.
 
Yes! Thank you, Ceallach. I forgot Archduchess Walburga.

Lindy: I wondered the same. My guess is that the man and woman standing immediately to the left of Archduke Christoph are Ad[FONT=&quot]é's parents, and that the slightly shorter woman standing to the right of Archduke Rudolf is Katie's mother... but I really don't know.

To answer your other question, the engagements of Princesses Marie Astrid and Margaretha of Luxembourg were not announced simultaneously, even though both the engagements and the marriages took place in short succession (Marie Astrid first in both cases): Noblesse & Royautés » Archives : les fiançailles de Margaretha de Luxembourg et Nicolas de Liechtenstein

Here is a translation:

<<The announcement of the engagement of Princess Margaretha of Luxembourg, daughter of Grand Duke Jean and of Grand Duchess Jos[/FONT]éphine-Charlotte of Luxembourg, to Prince Nicholas of Liechtenstein, son of Prince Franz Josef and Princess Georgina of Liechtenstein, took everyone by surprise. In fact, the Luxembourgish court had announced only a short time previously the engagement of Princess Marie Astrid of Luxembourg. The presentation of the engaged couple, surrounded by their families, took place in the castle of Colmar-Berg. Princess Margaretha was wearing her engagement ring: a ruby set with diamonds. The date of the wedding is set for 20 March 1982, six weeks after that of Princess Marie Astrid. The engaged couple became better acquainted during a ball that was given on the eve of the wedding of Hereditary Grand Duke Henri in February 1981.>>
 
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Although I do not agree with Ms. Walker's views, I do hope that the couple has a long and happy marriage without Ms. Walker attempting to force her ideologies on others (although I doubt that, seeing as her job seems to be just that :ermm:). Congratulations to all- it is a lovely day when two people decide to spend the rest of their lives together.
 
He is marrying her so I would think he would have the same views as her. Can't imagine that he didn't agree to what she is doing.
 
I don't doubt that the family of Archduke Imre agrees her being pro-life and some of her other believes as they are conservative catholic just like her. But like a lot of people here, I think that they don't agree that she is so outspoken about it as they are all very discreet people.

Lindy said:
I am wondering about the identity of a few people in the group photo. Who is the short, older woman standing next to Archduke Rudolphe's wife? And what about the couple standing between Christophe and Kathleen (the woman is wearing a rust color outfit)? Are they the parents of Kathleen or of Adelaide?

It is nice to see that Christophe and Imre are supported by so many of their cousins. It looks like Prince Jean's three sons are there, as well as four of Henri's children (where is Tessie?), and some children of Rudolphe. Both Yolande and Queen Fabiola look wonderful! Marie-Astrid and Carl-Christian are a lovely couple. I wonder if they held a joint anouncement to downplay the suitability of Kathleen. Did Marie-Astrid and Margarethe have a joint engagement anouncement? I know they were married within six weeks of one another.
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I only see two of Prince Jean's sons, Prince Constantin (next to Prince Sebastien) and Prince Carl Johan (behind Kathleen). The people between Christophe and Kathleen are indeed her parents. I guess that Tessy prefered to go home to Luxembourg to visit her own family as she lives abroad with her family and probably doesn't spend too much time with them and neither the grand ducal couple nor Hereditary Grand Duke Guillaume or all the other aunts, uncles, and cousins of the Archdukes where there. Most of the other lesser known people are Archduke Rudolf (Carl-Christian's brother), his wife, their children and their daughter in law.
 
Saschana said:
I don't doubt that the family of Archduke Imre agrees her being pro-life and some of her other believes as they are conservative catholic just like her. But like a lot of people here, I think that they don't agree that she is so outspoken about it as they are all very discreet people.
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The family's discretion is precisely one of the features that I have so admired in them over the years. It is clear that they have deeply held beliefs, and yet they lead through quiet example, by the manner in which they live their lives. This often has a much more powerful (and positive) effect on the observer than strident militancy; the latter often makes people turn away.
 
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I don´t like her, she is smug and I´m sure she can´t wait to be Archduchess.
 
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