Death and Funeral of HI&RH Archduke Otto (1912-2011)

[EmpressRouge]

I have a question about the three knocks at the cathedral door, and the priest/bishop refusing entry to the illustrious titles until the master of ceremonies calls him a sinful mortal. I've seen this scene play out at Empress Zita's funeral and at the beginning and end of the the movie The Crown Prince (scene of Crown Prince Rudolph's funeral). Is this a Habsburg tradition? Austrian tradition? Catholic tradition? And when/how did it start?

 

[MagMil]

I have a question about the three knocks at the cathedral door, and the priest/bishop refusing entry to the illustrious titles until the master of ceremonies calls him a sinful mortal. I've seen this scene play out at Empress Zita's funeral and at the beginning and end of the the movie The Crown Prince (scene of Crown Prince Rudolph's funeral). Is this a Habsburg tradition? Austrian tradition? Catholic tradition? And when/how did it start?

‪Otto von Habsburg Funeral - Kapuzinerkirche [HD]‬‏ - YouTube
I also want to know why !!!

 

[Katrianna]

As I understand it's a Habsburg tradition and that after Otto, this tradition will end. I read this bit in another forum so I can't proclaim that it is true. I love the ritual though and to me, it's very meaningful. I'm sure another member will help us out.

 

[abril]

‪Otto von Habsburg Funeral - Kapuzinerkirche [HD]‬‏ - YouTube
I also want to know why !!!

This is the ritual in wich they go into the crypt and to "eternity" like simple mortal sinners and not like Emperor/Empress, Archduke or any title they carry, just like humans.

(sorry bc of my english )

 

[Nadine]

ORF starts broadcasting with a documentary on aristocratic funerals at 12.10PM,so that's 06.10AM in NYC.

The Requiem starts at 15.00PM local time,09.00AM EST.

No,there are no nor will be online "booklets",
if not in attendance in person= no " booklet"...

Thank You, Lucien, for all the info. you provide, including the much coveted links.

Because of you I was able to watch the whole beautiful ceremony live early this morning. The music was stunning.

It's been a pleasure following & reading your posts as well.

Sincerely, Nadine

 

[lucien]

Astrid is not an Arcduchess of Austria,her husband is is the wife of Prince Lorenz, Archduke of Austria-Este,an Italian branch of the House of Hapsburg.

True,and also.It is Habsburg with a B,not a disney p because that's easyer to write dear An Ard Di....must have been a slip of the keyboard there...

@ Nadine:Thank you very much.It was a pleasure.

 

[lucien]

As I understand it's a Habsburg tradition and that after Otto, this tradition will end. I read this bit in another forum so I can't proclaim that it is true. I love the ritual though and to me, it's very meaningful. I'm sure another member will help us out.

A tradition that wasn't written down untill the funeral of Emperor Franz Jozef,there are no documents inclining the ritual with the capuchin monk took place before 1916.So,it was sort of a short-lived ( no pun intended) tradition.

 

[Cory]

There was nobody from the Royal Houses of Bavaria, Saxony, Hannover at the funeral?

 

[amedea]

I don't believe that Eilika has converted. And note that King Carl Gustav of Sweden, a Protestant, also received Holy Communion. If I remember correctly, in the Roman Catholic Church it is within the discretion of the bishop of each diocese to decide who will receive the Holy Eucharist. Christoph Schönborn, Archbishop of Vienna and a cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church, was the principal celebrant and also gave communion to the family and foreign royals, so it may have been entirely in his discretion to do so.

A catholic Bishop can give the Communion to non-catholic people only in very peculiar cases. If ADss Eilika and King Carl Gustav received the Communion being protestants, they didn't respect the catholic rules. That would show lack of sensibility or lack of a minimum theological knowledge.

 

[Cory]

Only Orthodox can receive Eucharist in a catholic church.Obviously this is not the case for an anglican or a protestant.

 

[Cory]

Who Can Receive Communion?

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I am very surprised if the King of Sweden received the Catholic Eucharist and even more surprised that Cardinal Schoenborn would permit such an abuse.

A Roman Catholic can not(or should not) receive Communion unless he/she is properly disposed to do so, i.e. has been to Confession or is not in a state of mortal sin.

For a non-Catholic, who presumably neither understands nor accepts what the Church teaches about the what happens to the Body and Blood of Christ during the Mass to to receive Communion is disrespectful, imo.

 

[Sancia]

I would have to disagree here, Sancia. We are in the realm of liturgy - by which I mean the postures and practices that reflect and embody our beliefs about our relationship with God - and not in the realm of mere cultural practice...

Thanks for the explanation but I am Catholic and I do attend mass every sunday so I know what I am speaking about when I am saying not eveybody is kneeling during consecration or for receiving communion in France. That is why I spoke about "cultural reason".

 

[lucien]

A catholic Bishop can give the Communion to non-catholic people only in very peculiar cases. If ADss Eilika and King Carl Gustav received the Communion being protestants, they didn't respect the catholic rules. That would show lack of sensibility or lack of a minimum theological knowledge.

Way Too short-sighted,the deceased had a broader view on the eucomenical cause and would not have minded a bit.These sort of ultra strict nonsense is not of this world anymore,flexibilty and opennes to other denominations is.So,If Carl XVI did receives Communion,good,got him a taste of us Catholics.We like to share all our goods with all!That is the Christian spirit.

 

[Burzg]

‪Otto von Habsburg Funeral‬‏ - YouTube

‪Otto von Habsburg dies at the age of 98‬‏ - YouTube

 

[Renata4711]

A couple of points:

1) The "Three Knocks" with the ceremonial wand remind me of the Opening of the (London) Parliament where "Black Rod" knocks three times. Only in this case, he has the door slammed in his face...

2) Otto von Habsburg spelt his name thus. Why do others spell it with a "p" ?? Even in my copy of "The Scotsman" (a reputable newspaper) it had a p ......

 

[Kasumi]

...
2) Otto von Habsburg spelt his name thus. Why do others spell it with a "p" ?? Even in my copy of "The Scotsman" (a reputable newspaper) it had a p ......

Lack of education of the journalists, I suppose.

 

[amedea]

Way Too short-sighted,the deceased had a broader view on the eucomenical cause and would not have minded a bit.These sort of ultra strict nonsense is not of this world anymore,flexibilty and opennes to other denominations is.So,If Carl XVI did receives Communion,good,got him a taste of us Catholics.We like to share all our goods with all!That is the Christian spirit.

I won't comment on your arguable idea of "us Catholics", I will just say that my understanding is that AD Otto always accepted the supremacy of the Church's teachings and never pretended to be more wise than the Popes themselves.

 

[lucien]

I won't comment on your arguable idea of "us Catholics", I will just say that my understanding is that AD Otto always accepted the supremacy of the Church's teachings and never pretended to be more wise than the Popes themselves.

Ones Faith is ones very own.Between oneself and God only.

There are plenty pretending to be more pious then the Pope,
but that doesn't mean they really are Amedeo.

The Late AD Otto not only accepted the teachings of the church,he looked beyond that,far beyond that.Hence the ceremonies including the Rabbi and the Great Mufti of Sarajewo earlyer this week.He was convinced about and on the sharing of the same God in all the three Monoistic Abrahamic Faiths,Jews,Islam and Christians.That is what I call a broad view,and he lived up to it not just with words,but with deeds,he lived that.

 

[maria-olivia]

SAD that the thread is again out of the subject!

Thanks to PPE who shows endless pictures of Archduke Otto and Archduchess Regina's five daughters:
Andrea , Michaela and Monika the twin sisters, Gabriella and Walburga.

Michaela changed a lot with her white hair and red Lips for his fathers's funerals.

A agree that Gabriela who is Ambassador will be the best first Lady of the Habsbourg head of Empress Zita and her Mother's Order (I forgot the name, it has a black ribbon).

It should be better that no royals assisted the funerals because the highlight was on them. King of Sweden receiving Communion, Hola for Infanta Christina. The most important to me were the President of Austria and his wife.

 

[Kasumi]

...A agree that Gabriela who is Ambassador will be the best first Lady of the Habsbourg head of Empress Zita and her Mother's Order (I forgot the name, it has a black ribbon)...

You mean Order of Starry Cross, maria-olivia.

 

[Johann Salvator]

...It should be better that no royals assisted the funerals because the highlight was on them.

I understand your feelings that the family could've been shadow by the presence of the royals. But I think it was great the presence of the royals and other heads of state as an homage and sign of respect for a great man. Imagine if they didn't show up

 

[amedea]

Jaime, count of Bardi was seated near Infanta Cristina in second row, then being in a better position than Astrid of Belgium, representing her father, and of his own elder brother. Was he representing the Queen of the Netherlands?

 

[maria-olivia]

Thanks to Kasumi , yes I meant the Order of the Starry Cross.
Times are changing , Archduchess Gabriela is a divorcee.

 

[amedea]

Times are changing , Archduchess Gabriela is a divorcee.

According to Wikipedia, her marriage was annulled canonically.

 

[Renata4711]

There's no proof of that in WP. I've challenged that on the Talk Page ....

 

[An Ard Ri]

True,and also.It is Habsburg with a B,not a disney p because that's easyer to write dear An Ard Di....must have been a slip of the keyboard there...

@ Nadine:Thank you very much.It was a pleasure.

You got me there Lucien

 

[Cory]

Personally I suppose the Order of precedence was not fairly respected at this funeral .Prince Jaime of Burbon-Parma was in the second desk and King Mihai I of romania, King Simeon Ii of Bulgaria and Princess Astrid of Belgium in the third one.Prince Jaime was hardly representing his aunt, Queen Beatrix, because he is not a member of the Royal Family of the Netherlands.

 

[Sancia]

There's no proof of that in WP. I've challenged that on the Talk Page ....

There is a reference in the english Wikipedia page about the archduchess: de Badts de Cugnac, Chantal and Coutant de Saisseval, Guy. Le Petit Gotha. Empire d'Autriche-Hongrie. Paris, 2002, p.201.
Le Petit Gotha is usually seen like a reliable source.

 

[Renata4711]

Many thanks, Sancia. I'll have another look...