Death and Funeral of HI&RH Archduke Otto (1912-2011)


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Were all of Karl and Francesca's children present? I could see the younger two in some of the photographs but wasn't able to spot their eldest daughter.
 
Marengo said:
I believe that at another forum (one of Robert Warholm's?) it was established that the Windsors were the only ones not to send a condoleances note after the death of Empress Zita (according to ADss Walburga) ;).
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I suppose that, in a way, this is both surprising and not surprising. It's surprising because one would think that historical courtesy between royal houses would dictate that a letter of condolence be sent. On the other hand, it is perhaps not surprising if you consider the history of the 20th century.

After all, Zita was Empress of Austria-Hungary when the UK was fighting against it in World War I. Perhaps the British royal family abstained from sending a letter of condolence on Zita's death in order not to upset the (few) living British veterans of the First World War who fought against the German Kaiser and his Austro-Hungarian allies. We must remember that Britain (as well as much of continental Europe) lost an entire generation of young men because of World War I... and the trigger was the Austro-Hungarian Emperor calling in his alliances and unleashing The Great War in order to avenge the murder of his heir, AD Franz Ferdinand, by a Yugoslav nationalist.
 
:imperialaustria:

Really,the excuses people try to find for the idiocracies of their RF...It's time the QE II retires if that were her considerations...which I doubt tho.
She isn't that daft and inconsiderate,the Foreign Office is tho..always has been,and this were and what the Foreign Office dictates....

We must most of all remember that it where not just brits that suffered losses,as if they were the only ones.Really.No,nonsense.QE II did receive Japanese Emperor Hirohito,so no,under his rule more were slaughtered then anywhere else in the next WW,almost.False emotions of times long gone are not the reason,way too far fetched.Karl had nothing to do with declaring WW I,and Franz Josef was too old and misled to realise what was happening until it was far too late in 1914.And the Brits loved to go into a war all thought would be over by fall 1914,so romantic dear.....It was the German Kaiser,little willy,with his double-crossing who set out declarations of war,the blithering fool.If you want to say something on WW I make sure first the Forum consists of dummies only.That would be another forum tho,we do not take to re-writing history here...

Karl I was a man of Peace and could only press forward to that and start drawing the proposals after Emperor Franz Josef had died,but then the brits and french under Clemenceau cheated and made the letters in which Karl layed down his peace proposals public.Double-crossers.
:habsburg::austria-hungary:
 
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May I confess how deeply shocked and affected I feel about the loss of this noble man? There is a chance I might be able to attend the funeral in Vienna now that I am finally back from the Southern Hemisphere, much to my relief. As I am waving goodbye to an ultimately beautiful era that has now come to an end, I would like to extend my deep condolences to The Archduke's immediate and extended family and to his friends from all over the world. He will be missed, which I reckon is something that the larger masses will never be able to comprehend. The fewer and better ones will be there for you, Your Imperial Highness.
 
In 1919 the British Royal Family helped Blessed Emperor Karl (anf Family) to leave Austria.We should not forget this important detail.
 
Emperor Karl was a man of piece but peace proposals came after the most slaughtering battles for the Commonwealth armies. And all the serious studies on the subject (John Keegan's ones, for examples) show the austrian empire had his share of responsibility in the war declaration. There is no need to call the one who don't agree Austria-Hungary was faultless in the war dummies. Being a supporter of a royal family should not be synonym of rewriting history to clear this family. Archduke Otto was a great man, Emperor Karl was probably one too, but that doesn't mean the Habsburgs were a perfect family. There was not perfect royal and imperial family, everyone had their faults and their great points.

But it remains that Empress Zita was the last Empress of a country against which war slaughtered more than one million people (dead for the British Empire) and wounded two millions other. The remaining importance of the poppy day is the proof that official condolences when Empress Zita died would have been very badly perceived by the English population, and I am sure archduchess Walburga knew this.
 
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:imperialaustria:

You seem to insist,don't you.You found the right one here.
Austria in 1914 wasn't the Austria Karl was responsible for,that was his great Uncle Emperor Franz Josef,NOT Karl I,Not Otto.You constantly ramble and mix them all up.

Yes well,tough luck,that all happened,and still aunt Lillibeth saw it fit,or better the Foreign Office,to receive Japanese Emperor Hirohito and send besides condolences to his widow and son,and a official envoy of HM to the funeral in Tokyo.Talking about slaughter......

That was the initial question,why didn't the Windsors,supposedly,send a telegram or any message of condolence.
For none of your reasons anyway.They helped Karl hey,really.No,they made sure he was send of to Madeira at arms length and more from returning to Vienna,that is what the Brits did,mingling and scheming with Clemencau's France to "illiminate" Karl as a force to be reckoned with.And then had him stay in a drafty,humid old house,to small to have the large family,small miracle Emperor Karl went ill,and for the worse.....Yes,the brits helped him allright.Into his grave.They did the same with Napoléon.No,not a loose sentence,but a true one.Not that they were after his death,but it wasn't inconvenient to them either.Talking about slaughter,ask India how many perished unseen and unheard of at that day and age under the British Raj.....

But this thread is dedicated to the Memory and Death of HI & RH Archduke Otto of Austria,and we will not have this thread "hijacked" by anyone or any other House.

Respect for Otto of Austria,a man of peace and unity.

http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalblo...7/many-royals-expected-for-ottos-funeral.html

http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalblo...otto-of-austria-honoured-with-all-titles.html

Courtesy HJA



:habsburg::austria-hungary:
 
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I feel the necessity to give some precisions. I found some interest on the question of the relations between the United Kingdom and Empress Zita and one of the possible explanations of the lack of official condolences from the Queen after Zita's death. The way WWI is today perceived in public opinion is of great interest for me, and that was the point I was interested in. I never meant to judge Emperor Karl, Empress Zita or archduke Otto. My post was not about who was right or not, it was a war and the role of an historian is not to judge or to decide who were the good ones, who were the bad ones (I am interested of the WWI history too). My point was neither about crimes committed by the Austrian-hungarian empire or the British empire. It was just to explain something about the public perception of Empress Zita, and I am sure you know as well as I do that between the public perception and the truth there is often a great difference.

To come back to the topic, I am interested in history and the history of the Habsburg family is a fascinating one. Even if I disagree with a lot of archduke Otto's opinions, he was a man I respected, a man of convictions, whose value widely was recognized and he will be missed. It may surprise you but I would very much like to try to watch the requiem on Internet and the interment ritual afterwards, which is a true lesson of humility for the one of us who are christian.
.
 
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Saschana said:
:previous:

Those are two different texts to the same tune. The music was composed by Joseph Haydn in 1797 for Emperor Franz II, originally it was called "Gott erhalte, Franz den Kaiser!" (text by Lorenz Haschka). The text was changed a couple of times when the old emperor died and a new one came into power because it usually referred to the current emperor by name. In 1854 today's version was introduced because Emperor Franz Josef did not like that the text had to be changed every time.
In 1841 the German poet August Heinrich Hoffmann von Fallersleben wrote "Das Lied der Deutschen" (song of the Germans) and it was set to the tune of the Kaiserhymne by Haydn. Interestingly, the German emperor-hymn "Heil dir im Siegerkranz" was set to the music of the British national anthem "God save the Queen/King".
But indeed you are right that in today's Germany we only sing the third verse because the other two, especially the first, is closely associated with the Nazi-era, because they mis-used the meaning of the words. Hoffmann von Fallersleben had intended to say something else as the Nazis interpreted the words.
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That's completely wrong. The only ones who "misused" the German national anthem were wartime allied propagandists. The German national anthem is a liberal text (in the national-liberal democratic tradition of the 1840s). I've myself witnessed members of the German parliament sing the entire anthem.

The German national anthem is one of the most peaceful and least aggressive of all national anthems in the world.

That said, I don't think it's a particularly good anthem (melody or text).
 
lucien said:
Really,the excuses people try to find for the idiocracies of their RF...
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First of all, the British royal family is not "my" royal family. I am a citizen of the United States of America and have no allegiance to any monarchy. On the other hand, I do appreciate the principles of history and continuity that royal families embody for their respective peoples, even if I do object to government by any absolutist or autocratic entity, be it from the right or left wing.

lucien said:
We must most of all remember that it where not just brits that suffered losses,as if they were the only ones.Really.
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Did I not say specifically in my last comment that most of continental Europe also lost a generation of young men? Perhaps you were so busy reacting based on your assumptions and prejudgments of me that you read too quickly, missed my tone and meaning, and assumed that I was being partisan.


lucien said:
If you want to say something on WW I make sure first the Forum consists of dummies only. That would be another forum tho,we do not take to re-writing history here...
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Is it necessary to use such a derogatory and disrespectful tone here? I was merely offering one possibility - and a pretty neutral one, I thought - for why the letter of condolence might not have been written, and you respond with an insult. By the way, if you want to debate academic credentials to establish credibility and absence of "dummyness," I'd be glad to go toe to toe with you.


lucien said:
Karl I was a man of Peace and could only press forward to that and start drawing the proposals after Emperor Franz Josef had died
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I agree entirely with this.

lucien said:
,but then the brits and french under Clemenceau cheated and made the letters in which Karl layed down his peace proposals public.Double-crossers.
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You conveniently forget or omit the role that the Austrian Foreign Minister Ottokar Czernin played in the Sixtus Affair by attacking Clemenceau and therefore inflaming the situation. And to suggest that the Brits were "under Clemenceau" is to misunderstand something fundamental about British relations with France....

Most of all, I hope that your passions don't continue to get the best of you, Lucien. I appreciate many of your posts, and mine was not meant to be incendiary or partisan, but merely to offer a hypothesis. You can really alienate people unnecessarily by reacting so strongly without reason.
 
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These sort of interesting discussions should really belong in a thread of their own,not in the thread concerning the death and funeral of Archduke Otto.Maybe we should set-up such a thread,would be rather interesting,and reserve this thread only to the Memory of HI & RH Archduke Otto as was intended.Thank you for appreciating my posts as I appreciate it even more if people stick to the topic instead of making a folly of it,belonging in a different thread and then not impress me by saying I alieanate people.So be it.Play by the rules and you won't regret.I call for more respect for the late Archduke Otto's thread.

@ Sancia,good,we agree.
 
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:imperialaustria:

Link to Austrian national TV Station ORF2 for the funeral on saturday july 16th.The program starts at 12.10PM with a documentary on aristocratic funerals followed by the LIVE broadcast of the Requiem and Funeral of Archduke Otto.

ORF TVthek: Abschied von Otto Habsburg - 16.07.2011 12:10 Uhr


Requiem at the Basilica Mariazell,yesterday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTtVfYpCsGU&feature=socblog_th

The remains of TI & RH lie in repose at the Kapuziner church since 20.00PM last night.The church is open 24 hours a day and many already payed their last respects.



:habsburg::austria-hungary:
 
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Thanks Lucien for sharing. I suppose the 3 widows of Archdukes Robert, Charles-Louis and Rodolphe will be at Vienna 16/7.
I am really impressed , such dignity from Church, Bavaria , old Soldiers, people from everywhere although Archduke Otto , Archduchess Regina and her children were never 1n the highlight and never glittering. I remember Karl's wedding i think also in Mariazell, the difference between their I and RHH and Baron Thyssen.
Did you notice that Karl's little son wears also the Oder of the Golden Fleece.
 
:imperialaustria:

Yes,good.He is his fathers Heir now and entitled to have the Order of the Toison d´Or.

Arrival of the remains at the Kapuziner church,Vienna,where they will lie in repose till saturday in the Kaiserkapelle ( Emperors chapel ) of the church.

ANP Photo


http://www.anp-photo.com/search.pp?page=1&ShowPicture=16041291&pos=3

http://www.anp-photo.com/search.pp?page=1&ShowPicture=16041296&pos=5

http://www.anp-photo.com/search.pp?page=1&ShowPicture=16041308&pos=8

http://www.anp-photo.com/search.pp?page=1&ShowPicture=16041252&pos=2


:habsburg::austria-hungary:
 
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HerSereneHighness said:
That's completely wrong. The only ones who "misused" the German national anthem were wartime allied propagandists. The German national anthem is a liberal text (in the national-liberal democratic tradition of the 1840s). I've myself witnessed members of the German parliament sing the entire anthem.

The German national anthem is one of the most peaceful and least aggressive of all national anthems in the world.

That said, I don't think it's a particularly good anthem (melody or text).
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I know it is off-topic but...
Please tell me one member of the German parliament who sang the "entire anthem" as the German National Anthem only consists of the third verse of the Deutschlandlied. The first and second verse of the original song are NOT part of Germany's anthem today. And of course it was misused by the Nazis. I have never sayed that it was an un-peaceful anthem from the start. The first verse (that was close to being forbidden in the early Bundesrepublik and is never used in public until today, the latter also going for the second verse of the Deutschlandlied) starts with (translated) "Germany, Germany above all [...] from From the Meuse to the Memel,
From the Adige to the Belt" and the Nazis took it literally saying that Germany must span from those rivers when originally Hoffmann von Fallersleben meant to express that the German Kleinstaaterei (don't know the English term, it means that there were loads of little states) should stop and Germany should unit as one. Basically the four rivers are the borders of the German speaking community during that time.
 
kmerian said:
This was very moving, I know the 2nd hymn is the "Kaiserhymne", Does anyone know what the first one is?
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The first one was the first verse of "Das Lied der Bayern" - "Bayernhymne " and is the hymn of Bavaria. Bavarian children learn the text in school.

The second one is the music of Germany's national anthem, which used to be Austria's imperial anthem (interesting history, that) but sung this time with the original text of the Kaiserhymne of Franz Joseph I, which was declared as the "original" by him in 1854. Before that each emperor had his own text written which was sung to the same melody.

Parallely in 1841 a German version was written by the poet A.H. Hoffmann von Fallersleben, which started: Germany, Germany above all - this became the German national anthem. After WWII the first verse was forbidden on official occasions and not in use at all others, because it contained the lines: From the Maas (Frontier river to Belgium) to the Memel (frontier river to Russia), from the Etsch (River in Italy which seperates the German speaking Southern Tyrolia from the rest of Italy) to the Belt (part of the Baltic Sea)... well, no more that and no more Germany above all. Even though it wasn't meant that imperialistic and aggressive way when it was written, but it was understood that way by both the Wilhelminian empire and Nazi-Germany. Today the third verse is the text of the national anthem, because in this verse the meaning of the "Song of the Germans" is much clearer in its unifying and peaceful meaning.

Back to the Franco-Josephian text of the emperor's hymn. Here the first verse was sung: with the text (Translated by me, so no poetry, of course...:flowers:)
1. Gott erhalte, Gott beschütze
Unsern Kaiser, unser Land!
Mächtig durch des Glaubens Stütze
Führt er uns mit weiser Hand!
Laßt uns seiner Väter Krone
Schirmen wider jeden Feind:
Innig bleibt mit Habsburgs Throne
Österreichs Geschick vereint.

God keep, God save
our emperor, our land.
Powerful due to his (christian) belief's help,
he leads with wisdom.
Let us protect his ancestor's crown
against all enemies.
Thoroughly connected to the throne of the Habsburgs
stays Austria's fate.

Hope this helps.

Ah, and the text of the hymn of Bavaria, first verse, for anyone interested int his beautiful and proud country:
1. Gott mit dir, du Land der Bayern,
deutsche Erde, Vaterland!
Über deinen weiten Gauen
ruhe Seine Segenshand!
|: Er behüte deine Fluren,
schirme deiner Städte Bau
Und erhalte dir die Farben
Seines Himmels, weiß und blau! :|

May God be with you, country of the Bavarians
of German soil, Vaterland (fatherland)
Over your wide counties
may rest His blessing hand.
May He protect the country's soil,
shield your cities' buildings.
Und upkeep your skies' colours -
white and blue.
 
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This thread starts to be confusing
There is a thread about Blessed Emperor Karl.
All what happened in 1914 should be transferred
This thread is about only HI&RH Archduke Otto.
 
LUCIEN, many, many thanks for the link....Can't wait to wath the live broadcast !!!!!
 
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la_noblesse said:
May I confess how deeply shocked and affected I feel about the loss of this noble man? There is a chance I might be able to attend the funeral in Vienna now that I am finally back from the Southern Hemisphere, much to my relief. As I am waving goodbye to an ultimately beautiful era that has now come to an end, I would like to extend my deep condolences to The Archduke's immediate and extended family and to his friends from all over the world. He will be missed, which I reckon is something that the larger masses will never be able to comprehend. The fewer and better ones will be there for you, Your Imperial Highness.
Click to expand...

I wrote it on another forum and I will repeat myself here: if you have the opportunity to come to Vienna on Saturday, just do it. I'm sure, though it is, alas, a sad occasion, it surely will be a memorable event! Dear La Noblesse, you can contact me via PM if you need more information or in case you are not sure where to stay in Vienna during your visit. I know plenty of agreeable accomodations and my husband and I love to have guests in our townhouse. :flowers: Just as a passing mark.

I attended the requiems in Munich and it has been very impressive and moving. Personally, I would like to celebrate the long and remarkable life of an unique personality more than to mourn his death. But it is, without any doubt, a great loss and the end of a certain era.

Saschana, you are completely right by the way. Who would sing the first or second verse in Germany nowadays?? Apart from a DVU moron perhaps. Regarding such sensitive topics, some people should rather be careful before spreading half-truths.
 
maria-olivia said:
Thanks Lucien for sharing. I suppose the 3 widows of Archdukes Robert, Charles-Louis and Rodolphe will be at Vienna 16/7.
I am really impressed , such dignity from Church, Bavaria , old Soldiers, people from everywhere although Archduke Otto , Archduchess Regina and her children were never 1n the highlight and never glittering. I remember Karl's wedding i think also in Mariazell, the difference between their I and RHH and Baron Thyssen.
Did you notice that Karl's little son wears also the Oder of the Golden Fleece.
Click to expand...
Archduchess Margherita was also at the Reqiuem at Pöcking together with her son Martin. Have read in one of the Articles that Archduke Felix will not attend as he lives in Mexico.
 
Blackadder said:
Saschana, you are completely right by the way. Who would sing the first or second verse in Germany nowadays?? Apart from a DVU moron perhaps. Regarding such sensitive topics, some people should rather be careful before spreading half-truths.
Click to expand...

It's never easy to dismiss things like that as complete nonsense. It was reported that the former prime minister of the federal state of Baden-Wuerttemberg Günther Oettinger (who is today an EU-commissary) sang in 2000 al three verses in public and was reprimanded for it by party friends and members of the other parties. And he was not the only one to do so.

Some know I'm a history buff, so allow me just the information that the Deutschlandlied was first sung in 1890 when Helgoland became part of Germany. It was sung as well by German soldiers during WWI. It became national anthem in 1922 for the democratic Weimar Republic. In 1933 the Nazi-government declared it as a "national symbol", protected by law. In addition a Nazisong was declared thusly as well. in 1945 the Allies forbid the song completely. In 1952 Federal president Theodor Heuss declares the complete song as our national anthem, adding that on official events only verse three should be sung. In 1991 Federal President Richard von Weizsäcker and chancellor Kohl decided that only verse three officially should be the national anthem, after our highest Court, the Court of the Federal Consitution, had decided in 1990 that only verse three is protected by law from bein parodied or misbehaviour as out national anthem.

So for a long time the democratic Federal Republic of Germany had the whole song as national anthem, till the reunification led to the decision that the united Germany has only the melody plus verse three as protected anthem. Interesting that the verses of the former East German hymn can be sung to the same melody, even though their anthem had a different tune.

You see, the country and it's parties tried to keep the Deutschlandlied due to the original meaning as a positive, reuniting song while at the same time trying to get rid of those parts who seemed to be sullied by WWI and the Nazis. It's a bit like our immigration politics which put a strong legal value on being German by blood or marriage (thus Otto von Habsburg with his numerous German ancestors and his German wife had no difficulties in acquiring the German passport, of course): we try to stay close to our historic foundations and beliefs while at the same time trying to make good for the atrocities the Nazis made out of these same historic traditions. One could say the Nazis destroyed the positive reputation of Germany's past but they couldn't destroy the positive content of our past as part of Europ's history.

And, to come back to the topic of this post: that's the same what Austria does with granting Otto von Habsburg such a celebrational funeral. Even though today's Austria is a completely different country to that that the Habsburgs lost and the Nazis (Germans and Austrian alike) took over: it still has a proud history connected with being the core country of the Habsburgs who had been over centuries the emperors of Germany and rulers of a string of countries not of German nation. As Otto was the last living heir of this monarchy ansd thus deserves to be honoured like that - even apart form his own merits.
 
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Sancia said:
I feel the necessity to give some precisions. I found some interest on the question of the relations between the United Kingdom and Empress Zita and one of the possible explanations of the lack of official condolences from the Queen after Zita's death. The way WWI is today perceived in public opinion is of great interest for me, and that was the point I was interested in. I never meant to judge Emperor Karl, Empress Zita or archduke Otto. My post was not about who was right or not, it was a war and the role of an historian is not to judge or to decide who were the good ones, who were the bad ones (I am interested of the WWI history too). My point was neither about crimes committed by the Austrian-hungarian empire or the British empire. It was just to explain something about the public perception of Empress Zita, and I am sure you know as well as I do that between the public perception and the truth there is often a great difference.

To come back to the topic, I am interested in history and the history of the Habsburg family is a fascinating one. Even if I disagree with a lot of archduke Otto's opinions, he was a man I respected, a man of convictions, whose value widely was recognized and he will be missed. It may surprise you but I would very much like to try to watch the requiem on Internet and the interment ritual afterwards, which is a true lesson of humility for the one of us who are christian.
.
Click to expand...

I agree entirely with you, Sancia, and I feel exactly the same way. It seems that we have similar interests and the very same motivation for our posts. Cheers.:flowers:
 
Blackadder said:
I wrote it on another forum and I will repeat myself here: if you have the opportunity to come to Vienna on Saturday, just do it. I'm sure, though it is, alas, a sad occasion, it surely will be a memorable event! Dear La Noblesse, you can contact me via PM if you need more information or in case you are not sure where to stay in Vienna during your visit. I know plenty of agreeable accomodations and my husband and I love to have guests in our townhouse. :flowers: Just as a passing mark.

I attended the requiems in Munich and it has been very impressive and moving. Personally, I would like to celebrate the long and remarkable life of an unique personality more than to mourn his death. But it is, without any doubt, a great loss and the end of a certain era. [...]
Click to expand...

I am undecided as yet whether to go to Wien or not, especially as there is another requiem mass in St Stephen's in Budapest on Sunday (note: that is where the younger son Georg got married), but I do feel a certain drive as my family today lives in almost all the countries the Habsburgs ruled once, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, Bohemia/Czech Rep, I should maybe add Slovakia and Austria of course. And as a family, we did attend Zita's, right inside of Stephansdom.

Can you maybe tell that otherwise it is business as usual day in Vienna, shops open, etc? I'm just trying to figure out the traffic

We understand at this point that the mass in Budapest will have internet broadcast, the burial of the heart procedure in the Archabbey will be closed to the media.
 
:imperialaustria:

Yesterday afternoon the Prayers for the Death were sung at the Kapuzinerkirche by the Bishop,the former Upper Rabbi Steven Langnas of Munich and Bavaria,and the Great Mufti of Sarajewo.The deceased was befriended with the Rabbi and the Great Mufti.

TI & RH Archduke Karl and his son Archduke Zvonimir were in attendance.

ORF TVthek: Otto Habsburg ist tot: Otto Habsburg in der Kapuzinerkirche - Heute in Österreich

Thousands already payed their last respects for TI & RH at the Kaiserkapelle in the Kapuzinerkirche.



:habsburg::austria-hungary:
 
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