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  #161  
Old 07-14-2011, 12:54 AM
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These sort of interesting discussions should really belong in a thread of their own,not in the thread concerning the death and funeral of Archduke Otto.Maybe we should set-up such a thread,would be rather interesting,and reserve this thread only to the Memory of HI & RH Archduke Otto as was intended.Thank you for appreciating my posts as I appreciate it even more if people stick to the topic instead of making a folly of it,belonging in a different thread and then not impress me by saying I alieanate people.So be it.Play by the rules and you won't regret.I call for more respect for the late Archduke Otto's thread.

@ Sancia,good,we agree.
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  #162  
Old 07-14-2011, 02:53 AM
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Link to Austrian national TV Station ORF2 for the funeral on saturday july 16th.The program starts at 12.10PM with a documentary on aristocratic funerals followed by the LIVE broadcast of the Requiem and Funeral of Archduke Otto.

ORF TVthek: Abschied von Otto Habsburg - 16.07.2011 12:10 Uhr


Requiem at the Basilica Mariazell,yesterday:



The remains of TI & RH lie in repose at the Kapuziner church since 20.00PM last night.The church is open 24 hours a day and many already payed their last respects.



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  #163  
Old 07-14-2011, 04:42 AM
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Thanks Lucien for sharing. I suppose the 3 widows of Archdukes Robert, Charles-Louis and Rodolphe will be at Vienna 16/7.
I am really impressed , such dignity from Church, Bavaria , old Soldiers, people from everywhere although Archduke Otto , Archduchess Regina and her children were never 1n the highlight and never glittering. I remember Karl's wedding i think also in Mariazell, the difference between their I and RHH and Baron Thyssen.
Did you notice that Karl's little son wears also the Oder of the Golden Fleece.
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  #164  
Old 07-14-2011, 06:19 AM
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Yes,good.He is his fathers Heir now and entitled to have the Order of the Toison d´Or.

Arrival of the remains at the Kapuziner church,Vienna,where they will lie in repose till saturday in the Kaiserkapelle ( Emperors chapel ) of the church.

ANP Photo


http://www.anp-photo.com/search.pp?p...16041291&pos=3

http://www.anp-photo.com/search.pp?p...16041296&pos=5

http://www.anp-photo.com/search.pp?p...16041308&pos=8

http://www.anp-photo.com/search.pp?p...16041252&pos=2


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  #165  
Old 07-14-2011, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerSereneHighness View Post
That's completely wrong. The only ones who "misused" the German national anthem were wartime allied propagandists. The German national anthem is a liberal text (in the national-liberal democratic tradition of the 1840s). I've myself witnessed members of the German parliament sing the entire anthem.

The German national anthem is one of the most peaceful and least aggressive of all national anthems in the world.

That said, I don't think it's a particularly good anthem (melody or text).
I know it is off-topic but...
Please tell me one member of the German parliament who sang the "entire anthem" as the German National Anthem only consists of the third verse of the Deutschlandlied. The first and second verse of the original song are NOT part of Germany's anthem today. And of course it was misused by the Nazis. I have never sayed that it was an un-peaceful anthem from the start. The first verse (that was close to being forbidden in the early Bundesrepublik and is never used in public until today, the latter also going for the second verse of the Deutschlandlied) starts with (translated) "Germany, Germany above all [...] from From the Meuse to the Memel,
From the Adige to the Belt" and the Nazis took it literally saying that Germany must span from those rivers when originally Hoffmann von Fallersleben meant to express that the German Kleinstaaterei (don't know the English term, it means that there were loads of little states) should stop and Germany should unit as one. Basically the four rivers are the borders of the German speaking community during that time.
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  #166  
Old 07-14-2011, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kmerian View Post
This was very moving, I know the 2nd hymn is the "Kaiserhymne", Does anyone know what the first one is?
The first one was the first verse of "Das Lied der Bayern" - "Bayernhymne " and is the hymn of Bavaria. Bavarian children learn the text in school.

The second one is the music of Germany's national anthem, which used to be Austria's imperial anthem (interesting history, that) but sung this time with the original text of the Kaiserhymne of Franz Joseph I, which was declared as the "original" by him in 1854. Before that each emperor had his own text written which was sung to the same melody.

Parallely in 1841 a German version was written by the poet A.H. Hoffmann von Fallersleben, which started: Germany, Germany above all - this became the German national anthem. After WWII the first verse was forbidden on official occasions and not in use at all others, because it contained the lines: From the Maas (Frontier river to Belgium) to the Memel (frontier river to Russia), from the Etsch (River in Italy which seperates the German speaking Southern Tyrolia from the rest of Italy) to the Belt (part of the Baltic Sea)... well, no more that and no more Germany above all. Even though it wasn't meant that imperialistic and aggressive way when it was written, but it was understood that way by both the Wilhelminian empire and Nazi-Germany. Today the third verse is the text of the national anthem, because in this verse the meaning of the "Song of the Germans" is much clearer in its unifying and peaceful meaning.

Back to the Franco-Josephian text of the emperor's hymn. Here the first verse was sung: with the text (Translated by me, so no poetry, of course...)
1. Gott erhalte, Gott beschütze
Unsern Kaiser, unser Land!
Mächtig durch des Glaubens Stütze
Führt er uns mit weiser Hand!
Laßt uns seiner Väter Krone
Schirmen wider jeden Feind:
Innig bleibt mit Habsburgs Throne
Österreichs Geschick vereint.

God keep, God save
our emperor, our land.
Powerful due to his (christian) belief's help,
he leads with wisdom.
Let us protect his ancestor's crown
against all enemies.
Thoroughly connected to the throne of the Habsburgs
stays Austria's fate.

Hope this helps.

Ah, and the text of the hymn of Bavaria, first verse, for anyone interested int his beautiful and proud country:
1. Gott mit dir, du Land der Bayern,
deutsche Erde, Vaterland!
Über deinen weiten Gauen
ruhe Seine Segenshand!
|: Er behüte deine Fluren,
schirme deiner Städte Bau
Und erhalte dir die Farben
Seines Himmels, weiß und blau! :|

May God be with you, country of the Bavarians
of German soil, Vaterland (fatherland)
Over your wide counties
may rest His blessing hand.
May He protect the country's soil,
shield your cities' buildings.
Und upkeep your skies' colours -
white and blue.
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  #167  
Old 07-14-2011, 07:42 AM
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This thread starts to be confusing
There is a thread about Blessed Emperor Karl.
All what happened in 1914 should be transferred
This thread is about only HI&RH Archduke Otto.
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  #168  
Old 07-14-2011, 08:02 AM
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LUCIEN, many, many thanks for the link....Can't wait to wath the live broadcast !!!!!
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  #169  
Old 07-14-2011, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by lucien View Post
Arrival of the remains at the Kapuziner church,Vienna,where they will lie in repose till saturday in the Kaiserkapelle ( Emperors chapel ) of the church.
Video is here:
http://video.vienna.at/welt-und-poli...uft_194_144647
.
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  #170  
Old 07-14-2011, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by la_noblesse View Post
May I confess how deeply shocked and affected I feel about the loss of this noble man? There is a chance I might be able to attend the funeral in Vienna now that I am finally back from the Southern Hemisphere, much to my relief. As I am waving goodbye to an ultimately beautiful era that has now come to an end, I would like to extend my deep condolences to The Archduke's immediate and extended family and to his friends from all over the world. He will be missed, which I reckon is something that the larger masses will never be able to comprehend. The fewer and better ones will be there for you, Your Imperial Highness.
I wrote it on another forum and I will repeat myself here: if you have the opportunity to come to Vienna on Saturday, just do it. I'm sure, though it is, alas, a sad occasion, it surely will be a memorable event! Dear La Noblesse, you can contact me via PM if you need more information or in case you are not sure where to stay in Vienna during your visit. I know plenty of agreeable accomodations and my husband and I love to have guests in our townhouse. Just as a passing mark.

I attended the requiems in Munich and it has been very impressive and moving. Personally, I would like to celebrate the long and remarkable life of an unique personality more than to mourn his death. But it is, without any doubt, a great loss and the end of a certain era.

Saschana, you are completely right by the way. Who would sing the first or second verse in Germany nowadays?? Apart from a DVU moron perhaps. Regarding such sensitive topics, some people should rather be careful before spreading half-truths.
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  #171  
Old 07-14-2011, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Thanks Lucien for sharing. I suppose the 3 widows of Archdukes Robert, Charles-Louis and Rodolphe will be at Vienna 16/7.
I am really impressed , such dignity from Church, Bavaria , old Soldiers, people from everywhere although Archduke Otto , Archduchess Regina and her children were never 1n the highlight and never glittering. I remember Karl's wedding i think also in Mariazell, the difference between their I and RHH and Baron Thyssen.
Did you notice that Karl's little son wears also the Oder of the Golden Fleece.
Archduchess Margherita was also at the Reqiuem at Pöcking together with her son Martin. Have read in one of the Articles that Archduke Felix will not attend as he lives in Mexico.
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  #172  
Old 07-14-2011, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackadder View Post

Saschana, you are completely right by the way. Who would sing the first or second verse in Germany nowadays?? Apart from a DVU moron perhaps. Regarding such sensitive topics, some people should rather be careful before spreading half-truths.
It's never easy to dismiss things like that as complete nonsense. It was reported that the former prime minister of the federal state of Baden-Wuerttemberg Günther Oettinger (who is today an EU-commissary) sang in 2000 al three verses in public and was reprimanded for it by party friends and members of the other parties. And he was not the only one to do so.

Some know I'm a history buff, so allow me just the information that the Deutschlandlied was first sung in 1890 when Helgoland became part of Germany. It was sung as well by German soldiers during WWI. It became national anthem in 1922 for the democratic Weimar Republic. In 1933 the Nazi-government declared it as a "national symbol", protected by law. In addition a Nazisong was declared thusly as well. in 1945 the Allies forbid the song completely. In 1952 Federal president Theodor Heuss declares the complete song as our national anthem, adding that on official events only verse three should be sung. In 1991 Federal President Richard von Weizsäcker and chancellor Kohl decided that only verse three officially should be the national anthem, after our highest Court, the Court of the Federal Consitution, had decided in 1990 that only verse three is protected by law from bein parodied or misbehaviour as out national anthem.

So for a long time the democratic Federal Republic of Germany had the whole song as national anthem, till the reunification led to the decision that the united Germany has only the melody plus verse three as protected anthem. Interesting that the verses of the former East German hymn can be sung to the same melody, even though their anthem had a different tune.

You see, the country and it's parties tried to keep the Deutschlandlied due to the original meaning as a positive, reuniting song while at the same time trying to get rid of those parts who seemed to be sullied by WWI and the Nazis. It's a bit like our immigration politics which put a strong legal value on being German by blood or marriage (thus Otto von Habsburg with his numerous German ancestors and his German wife had no difficulties in acquiring the German passport, of course): we try to stay close to our historic foundations and beliefs while at the same time trying to make good for the atrocities the Nazis made out of these same historic traditions. One could say the Nazis destroyed the positive reputation of Germany's past but they couldn't destroy the positive content of our past as part of Europ's history.

And, to come back to the topic of this post: that's the same what Austria does with granting Otto von Habsburg such a celebrational funeral. Even though today's Austria is a completely different country to that that the Habsburgs lost and the Nazis (Germans and Austrian alike) took over: it still has a proud history connected with being the core country of the Habsburgs who had been over centuries the emperors of Germany and rulers of a string of countries not of German nation. As Otto was the last living heir of this monarchy ansd thus deserves to be honoured like that - even apart form his own merits.
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  #173  
Old 07-14-2011, 02:46 PM
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Infanta Cristina will represent Spanish Royal Family at the funeral

Funeral por S.A.I. y R. el Archiduque de Austria Otto de Habsburgo-Lorena. Casa de Su Majestad el Rey de España
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  #174  
Old 07-14-2011, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Sancia View Post
I feel the necessity to give some precisions. I found some interest on the question of the relations between the United Kingdom and Empress Zita and one of the possible explanations of the lack of official condolences from the Queen after Zita's death. The way WWI is today perceived in public opinion is of great interest for me, and that was the point I was interested in. I never meant to judge Emperor Karl, Empress Zita or archduke Otto. My post was not about who was right or not, it was a war and the role of an historian is not to judge or to decide who were the good ones, who were the bad ones (I am interested of the WWI history too). My point was neither about crimes committed by the Austrian-hungarian empire or the British empire. It was just to explain something about the public perception of Empress Zita, and I am sure you know as well as I do that between the public perception and the truth there is often a great difference.

To come back to the topic, I am interested in history and the history of the Habsburg family is a fascinating one. Even if I disagree with a lot of archduke Otto's opinions, he was a man I respected, a man of convictions, whose value widely was recognized and he will be missed. It may surprise you but I would very much like to try to watch the requiem on Internet and the interment ritual afterwards, which is a true lesson of humility for the one of us who are christian.
.
I agree entirely with you, Sancia, and I feel exactly the same way. It seems that we have similar interests and the very same motivation for our posts. Cheers.
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  #175  
Old 07-14-2011, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post


Glad they decided.

Kapuziner church,Vienna today,a constant stream of people paying their last respects.

Totenwache für Otto Habsburg in der Kapuzinergruft - Chronik - News - austria.com

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  #176  
Old 07-14-2011, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackadder View Post
I wrote it on another forum and I will repeat myself here: if you have the opportunity to come to Vienna on Saturday, just do it. I'm sure, though it is, alas, a sad occasion, it surely will be a memorable event! Dear La Noblesse, you can contact me via PM if you need more information or in case you are not sure where to stay in Vienna during your visit. I know plenty of agreeable accomodations and my husband and I love to have guests in our townhouse. Just as a passing mark.

I attended the requiems in Munich and it has been very impressive and moving. Personally, I would like to celebrate the long and remarkable life of an unique personality more than to mourn his death. But it is, without any doubt, a great loss and the end of a certain era. [...]
I am undecided as yet whether to go to Wien or not, especially as there is another requiem mass in St Stephen's in Budapest on Sunday (note: that is where the younger son Georg got married), but I do feel a certain drive as my family today lives in almost all the countries the Habsburgs ruled once, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, Bohemia/Czech Rep, I should maybe add Slovakia and Austria of course. And as a family, we did attend Zita's, right inside of Stephansdom.

Can you maybe tell that otherwise it is business as usual day in Vienna, shops open, etc? I'm just trying to figure out the traffic

We understand at this point that the mass in Budapest will have internet broadcast, the burial of the heart procedure in the Archabbey will be closed to the media.
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  #177  
Old 07-14-2011, 10:07 PM
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well! i was right then LOL
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  #178  
Old 07-15-2011, 12:39 AM
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Yesterday afternoon the Prayers for the Death were sung at the Kapuzinerkirche by the Bishop,the former Upper Rabbi Steven Langnas of Munich and Bavaria,and the Great Mufti of Sarajewo.The deceased was befriended with the Rabbi and the Great Mufti.

TI & RH Archduke Karl and his son Archduke Zvonimir were in attendance.

ORF TVthek: Otto Habsburg ist tot: Otto Habsburg in der Kapuzinerkirche - Heute in Österreich

Thousands already payed their last respects for TI & RH at the Kaiserkapelle in the Kapuzinerkirche.



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  #179  
Old 07-15-2011, 01:32 AM
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TI & RH Archduke Karl and his son Archduke Zvonimir were in attendance.
The son's name is Ferdinand, no? Or is this Georg's son?
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  #180  
Old 07-15-2011, 02:16 AM
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The son's name is Ferdinand, no? Or is this Georg's son?
Yes, is the same person, son of Karl. Full name is Ferdinand Zvonimir Maria Balthus Keith Michael Otto Antal Bahnam Leonhard.
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