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  #141  
Old 07-12-2011, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucien View Post
@ Johann Salvator,I don't see any mentioning of the Dukes of Palma at all...?!
Ooopsss... very embarrassing of me, confusing Parma with Palma, very sorry about that.
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  #142  
Old 07-12-2011, 08:06 PM
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It only takes one letter, so the confusion is quite understandable .

--
In early reports it was said that the president of Georgia might attend (due to ADss Gabriela?), any news on that? Good to see that the king and quen of Sweden are attending, I wish more royal families would send their 'core royals' to Vienna. I would be esp. surprised by an absence of Spain, I believe Otto & Regina did attend the weddings of one or two of the infantas. I suppose the duke of Parma or his brother will also represent their aunt, the Dutch queen?
I believe that at another forum (one of Robert Warholm's?) it was established that the Windsors were the only ones not to send a condoleances note after the death of Empress Zita (according to ADss Walburga), so nice to see that they could send princess Michael from the ivory tower in London .

--
A report by ORF about Mariazell today:

ORF TVthek: Zeit im Bild - 12.07.2011 19:30 Uhr

ORF TVthek: Kärnten heute - 12.07.2011 19:00 Uhr

And another clip, among other things with a few words by AD Michael:

ORF TVthek: Report - 12.07.2011 21:05 Uhr-

---

On the wikipedia page (considering the thoroughness & quickness of it it must have been created by the office of the Habsurgs) Grand Duke of Luxembourg is said to belong to 'a side branch of the house of Bourbon Parma':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_a...o_von_Habsburg
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  #143  
Old 07-12-2011, 11:57 PM
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As a Catholic it seems very right and dignified for the late Archduke to be laid to rest with such solemnity and high church pagentry. And yet, the whole thing seems out of another world; very, very out of place in the 21st century. This is a royal family in exile and it must be very awkward for some of them. I do not keep tabs on the current Hapsburgs but for some of them who go virtually unnoticed by Austria all this ceremony and prais of the late Archduke must be something bizarre and and, maybe, a little two faced of a country that does not want a royal family and has not wanted one since 1918.

Still, may the angels guide the late Archduke and Archduchess to their heavenly rest. I imagine the funeral will be a great send off to a great European.
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  #144  
Old 07-13-2011, 03:26 AM
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pgm1952: imperial family of Austria is not in exile. They were, but now they are granted the permission to enter and live in Austria again. Austria is in a way honouring its past with this ceremony for even if they don't have a monarchy, it is still a major part of history and tradition of that country. There is nothing bizarre about the praise for the late Archduke for he was a great European in every sense of the word.

marengo: Grandduke Jean's father Felix was a Prince of Bourbon-Parma.
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  #145  
Old 07-13-2011, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Charlotte_Aster View Post

marengo: Grandduke Jean's father Felix was a Prince of Bourbon-Parma.


Prince Felix was a brother of the late Empress Zita as well as the brother of Prince Xavier,grandfather of the present Duke of Parma.


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  #146  
Old 07-13-2011, 05:44 AM
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I know that prince Felix was a Bourbon-Parma, but the Lux. Grand Ducal family considers themselves Nassau-Weilburgs (f.e. here: Droits de succession - Cour Grand-Ducale de Luxembourg - La monarchie), and in all genealogical databases they are listed as such too. GD Jean dropped the Bourbon-Parma titles all together, though the present Grand Duke seems to have added them again. So quite cheeky to list them as Bourbon-Parma's, by whoever wrote the entry.

---
I don't find it odd or embarrassing that AD Otto's funeral gets so much attention. The Habsburgs dynasty has ruled Austria for centuries and he actually was the last crown prince. Funerals of other Habsburgs have been much more low key.
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  #147  
Old 07-13-2011, 11:00 AM
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HI & RH Archduke Otto of Austria will be the last of the Habsburgs who will be interred in the Kapuzinergruft.Indeed,it is only fitting that he,the last Crown Prince of Austria - Hungary,Royal Prince of Hungary and Bohemia is honoured in a way fitting this son of the last Emperor.

Btw,The Blessed Emperor Karl I will remain in Madeira,there has been / is much speculation as to will he return to Vienna or not,but that will not happen.

Requiem at the Basilica,Mariazell this afternoon:

BelgaPicture - Category details

Later today the remains will be moved to Vienna by train where they will
lie in repose at the Kapuziner Church on the Neuen Markt untill saturday.
There is a video wall outside the church till saturday night with view inside
the church as it will be open 24 hours a day.

On friday evening at 19.00PM the Jewish community of Vienna will Honour the Archduke Otto in a special service at the Temple.HI & RH Archduke Karl,Head of the House of Habsburg,will be in attendance and speech.


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  #148  
Old 07-13-2011, 11:37 AM
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If I'm not mistaken, there is one other place remaining and that the very last spot is reserved for Archduchess Yolande (born Princess of Ligne), the widowed wife of Archduke Carl-Ludwig.
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  #149  
Old 07-13-2011, 12:02 PM
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Kleine Zeitung, has some excellent photos and videos up of the Rosary in Mariazell:
Mariazell: Requiem für Kaisersohn Otto > Kleine Zeitung
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  #150  
Old 07-13-2011, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Saschana View Post
If I'm not mistaken, there is one other place remaining and that the very last spot is reserved for Archduchess Yolande (born Princess of Ligne), the widowed wife of Archduke Carl-Ludwig.


The Archduke Otto,the last Crown Prince,will be the last Habsburg interred there.A most dignified conclusion of a centuries old tradition of the Habsburgs.

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  #151  
Old 07-13-2011, 01:38 PM
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Were all of Karl and Francesca's children present? I could see the younger two in some of the photographs but wasn't able to spot their eldest daughter.
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  #152  
Old 07-13-2011, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I believe that at another forum (one of Robert Warholm's?) it was established that the Windsors were the only ones not to send a condoleances note after the death of Empress Zita (according to ADss Walburga) .
I suppose that, in a way, this is both surprising and not surprising. It's surprising because one would think that historical courtesy between royal houses would dictate that a letter of condolence be sent. On the other hand, it is perhaps not surprising if you consider the history of the 20th century.

After all, Zita was Empress of Austria-Hungary when the UK was fighting against it in World War I. Perhaps the British royal family abstained from sending a letter of condolence on Zita's death in order not to upset the (few) living British veterans of the First World War who fought against the German Kaiser and his Austro-Hungarian allies. We must remember that Britain (as well as much of continental Europe) lost an entire generation of young men because of World War I... and the trigger was the Austro-Hungarian Emperor calling in his alliances and unleashing The Great War in order to avenge the murder of his heir, AD Franz Ferdinand, by a Yugoslav nationalist.
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  #153  
Old 07-13-2011, 02:41 PM
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Really,the excuses people try to find for the idiocracies of their RF...It's time the QE II retires if that were her considerations...which I doubt tho.
She isn't that daft and inconsiderate,the Foreign Office is tho..always has been,and this were and what the Foreign Office dictates....

We must most of all remember that it where not just brits that suffered losses,as if they were the only ones.Really.No,nonsense.QE II did receive Japanese Emperor Hirohito,so no,under his rule more were slaughtered then anywhere else in the next WW,almost.False emotions of times long gone are not the reason,way too far fetched.Karl had nothing to do with declaring WW I,and Franz Josef was too old and misled to realise what was happening until it was far too late in 1914.And the Brits loved to go into a war all thought would be over by fall 1914,so romantic dear.....It was the German Kaiser,little willy,with his double-crossing who set out declarations of war,the blithering fool.If you want to say something on WW I make sure first the Forum consists of dummies only.That would be another forum tho,we do not take to re-writing history here...

Karl I was a man of Peace and could only press forward to that and start drawing the proposals after Emperor Franz Josef had died,but then the brits and french under Clemenceau cheated and made the letters in which Karl layed down his peace proposals public.Double-crossers.
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  #154  
Old 07-13-2011, 02:52 PM
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May I confess how deeply shocked and affected I feel about the loss of this noble man? There is a chance I might be able to attend the funeral in Vienna now that I am finally back from the Southern Hemisphere, much to my relief. As I am waving goodbye to an ultimately beautiful era that has now come to an end, I would like to extend my deep condolences to The Archduke's immediate and extended family and to his friends from all over the world. He will be missed, which I reckon is something that the larger masses will never be able to comprehend. The fewer and better ones will be there for you, Your Imperial Highness.
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  #155  
Old 07-13-2011, 03:09 PM
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In 1919 the British Royal Family helped Blessed Emperor Karl (anf Family) to leave Austria.We should not forget this important detail.
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  #156  
Old 07-13-2011, 04:19 PM
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Emperor Karl was a man of piece but peace proposals came after the most slaughtering battles for the Commonwealth armies. And all the serious studies on the subject (John Keegan's ones, for examples) show the austrian empire had his share of responsibility in the war declaration. There is no need to call the one who don't agree Austria-Hungary was faultless in the war dummies. Being a supporter of a royal family should not be synonym of rewriting history to clear this family. Archduke Otto was a great man, Emperor Karl was probably one too, but that doesn't mean the Habsburgs were a perfect family. There was not perfect royal and imperial family, everyone had their faults and their great points.

But it remains that Empress Zita was the last Empress of a country against which war slaughtered more than one million people (dead for the British Empire) and wounded two millions other. The remaining importance of the poppy day is the proof that official condolences when Empress Zita died would have been very badly perceived by the English population, and I am sure archduchess Walburga knew this.
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  #157  
Old 07-13-2011, 05:59 PM
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You seem to insist,don't you.You found the right one here.
Austria in 1914 wasn't the Austria Karl was responsible for,that was his great Uncle Emperor Franz Josef,NOT Karl I,Not Otto.You constantly ramble and mix them all up.

Yes well,tough luck,that all happened,and still aunt Lillibeth saw it fit,or better the Foreign Office,to receive Japanese Emperor Hirohito and send besides condolences to his widow and son,and a official envoy of HM to the funeral in Tokyo.Talking about slaughter......

That was the initial question,why didn't the Windsors,supposedly,send a telegram or any message of condolence.
For none of your reasons anyway.They helped Karl hey,really.No,they made sure he was send of to Madeira at arms length and more from returning to Vienna,that is what the Brits did,mingling and scheming with Clemencau's France to "illiminate" Karl as a force to be reckoned with.And then had him stay in a drafty,humid old house,to small to have the large family,small miracle Emperor Karl went ill,and for the worse.....Yes,the brits helped him allright.Into his grave.They did the same with Napoléon.No,not a loose sentence,but a true one.Not that they were after his death,but it wasn't inconvenient to them either.Talking about slaughter,ask India how many perished unseen and unheard of at that day and age under the British Raj.....

But this thread is dedicated to the Memory and Death of HI & RH Archduke Otto of Austria,and we will not have this thread "hijacked" by anyone or any other House.

Respect for Otto of Austria,a man of peace and unity.

http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalblog...s-funeral.html

http://gpdhome.typepad.com/royalblog...ll-titles.html

Courtesy HJA



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  #158  
Old 07-13-2011, 06:25 PM
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I feel the necessity to give some precisions. I found some interest on the question of the relations between the United Kingdom and Empress Zita and one of the possible explanations of the lack of official condolences from the Queen after Zita's death. The way WWI is today perceived in public opinion is of great interest for me, and that was the point I was interested in. I never meant to judge Emperor Karl, Empress Zita or archduke Otto. My post was not about who was right or not, it was a war and the role of an historian is not to judge or to decide who were the good ones, who were the bad ones (I am interested of the WWI history too). My point was neither about crimes committed by the Austrian-hungarian empire or the British empire. It was just to explain something about the public perception of Empress Zita, and I am sure you know as well as I do that between the public perception and the truth there is often a great difference.

To come back to the topic, I am interested in history and the history of the Habsburg family is a fascinating one. Even if I disagree with a lot of archduke Otto's opinions, he was a man I respected, a man of convictions, whose value widely was recognized and he will be missed. It may surprise you but I would very much like to try to watch the requiem on Internet and the interment ritual afterwards, which is a true lesson of humility for the one of us who are christian.
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  #159  
Old 07-13-2011, 09:10 PM
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Those are two different texts to the same tune. The music was composed by Joseph Haydn in 1797 for Emperor Franz II, originally it was called "Gott erhalte, Franz den Kaiser!" (text by Lorenz Haschka). The text was changed a couple of times when the old emperor died and a new one came into power because it usually referred to the current emperor by name. In 1854 today's version was introduced because Emperor Franz Josef did not like that the text had to be changed every time.
In 1841 the German poet August Heinrich Hoffmann von Fallersleben wrote "Das Lied der Deutschen" (song of the Germans) and it was set to the tune of the Kaiserhymne by Haydn. Interestingly, the German emperor-hymn "Heil dir im Siegerkranz" was set to the music of the British national anthem "God save the Queen/King".
But indeed you are right that in today's Germany we only sing the third verse because the other two, especially the first, is closely associated with the Nazi-era, because they mis-used the meaning of the words. Hoffmann von Fallersleben had intended to say something else as the Nazis interpreted the words.
That's completely wrong. The only ones who "misused" the German national anthem were wartime allied propagandists. The German national anthem is a liberal text (in the national-liberal democratic tradition of the 1840s). I've myself witnessed members of the German parliament sing the entire anthem.

The German national anthem is one of the most peaceful and least aggressive of all national anthems in the world.

That said, I don't think it's a particularly good anthem (melody or text).
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  #160  
Old 07-14-2011, 12:06 AM
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Really,the excuses people try to find for the idiocracies of their RF...
First of all, the British royal family is not "my" royal family. I am a citizen of the United States of America and have no allegiance to any monarchy. On the other hand, I do appreciate the principles of history and continuity that royal families embody for their respective peoples, even if I do object to government by any absolutist or autocratic entity, be it from the right or left wing.

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We must most of all remember that it where not just brits that suffered losses,as if they were the only ones.Really.
Did I not say specifically in my last comment that most of continental Europe also lost a generation of young men? Perhaps you were so busy reacting based on your assumptions and prejudgments of me that you read too quickly, missed my tone and meaning, and assumed that I was being partisan.


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Originally Posted by lucien View Post
If you want to say something on WW I make sure first the Forum consists of dummies only. That would be another forum tho,we do not take to re-writing history here...
Is it necessary to use such a derogatory and disrespectful tone here? I was merely offering one possibility - and a pretty neutral one, I thought - for why the letter of condolence might not have been written, and you respond with an insult. By the way, if you want to debate academic credentials to establish credibility and absence of "dummyness," I'd be glad to go toe to toe with you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lucien View Post
Karl I was a man of Peace and could only press forward to that and start drawing the proposals after Emperor Franz Josef had died
I agree entirely with this.

Quote:
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,but then the brits and french under Clemenceau cheated and made the letters in which Karl layed down his peace proposals public.Double-crossers.
You conveniently forget or omit the role that the Austrian Foreign Minister Ottokar Czernin played in the Sixtus Affair by attacking Clemenceau and therefore inflaming the situation. And to suggest that the Brits were "under Clemenceau" is to misunderstand something fundamental about British relations with France....

Most of all, I hope that your passions don't continue to get the best of you, Lucien. I appreciate many of your posts, and mine was not meant to be incendiary or partisan, but merely to offer a hypothesis. You can really alienate people unnecessarily by reacting so strongly without reason.
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