Titles of the Royal Family

[Somebody]

I am not sure whether Felipe de Marichalar's children will have a distinctive style or be plain Ms/Mr. The heirs of nonroyal Grandees also have the treatment of Most Excellent, and other legitimate children have the treatment of Most Illustrious. But I am not knowledgeable enough to say if there is a difference for the children of non-hereditary Grandees. Moreover, there is disagreement over whether "having the consideration" of Grandees implies that the children of Infantas and Infantes are properly Grandees or only have the same privileges as Grandees.

https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1987-25284

And although there are many legitimate grandchildren of Infantas and Infantes who are living, their situation is not necessarily comparable to the hypothetical future children of Felipe de Marichalar as most of them have parents who use other titles and styles. The only exceptions are the grandchildren of Infanta Pilar through her daughter and younger sons, I think.

For the wedding of the Prince and Princess of Asturias in 2004, the Royal Household referred to some, but not all, grandchildren and grandchildren-in-law of Infantas and Infantes as Excellencies:

The difference seems to be between grandchild of infante vs infanta. Are the examples that are Excmo all fully male line?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Are the examples that are Excmo all fully male line?

No, Infante Alfonso de Orleans was the son of Infanta María Eulalia (the youngest daughter of Queen Isabel II) and Infante Antonio (the son of Infanta María Luisa Fernanda, the younger daughter of King Fernando VII). He was a great-grandson in male line of Louis-Philippe, King of the French.

The courtesy styles for children and grandchildren of nonroyal Grandees do not distinguish between male and female lines as far as I can tell.

 

[Mbruno]

We don't know hoe the wife of a potential younger son os a spanish King would be styled as there hasn't been a younger son in the last generations and there is no one in the next generation. Could well have been that she would be made Infanta de gracias.

Yes, she could be made an infanta de gracia or something else entirely, but, according to present general rules, she would fall into the same category as husbands of Infantas, i.e. her title would be up to the King to decide and not automatic in any sense. In any case, an infanta de gracia would only be an HH, not an HRH.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

We don't know hoe the wife of a potential younger son os a spanish King would be styled as there hasn't been a younger son in the last generations and there is no one in the next generation. Could well have been that she would be made Infanta de gracias.

The current Spanish model was established by the royal decree of November 12, 1987. In past generations, a husband or wife who met the dynastic requirements was an Infante/Infanta of Spain, whereas a wife or husband who was a commoner or "unequal" nobility, or did not settle in Spain, did not become an Infanta/Infante.

The 1987 decree stipulates in Article 3 that Infantas/Infantes by grace are to be created only in "exceptional circumstances". While it does not define "exceptional circumstances", I don't think merely being the wife of a younger son would qualify.

https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1987-25284

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Moving this post from the Danish forum:


In Spain under the Bourbon dynasty (until 1987), it was the custom to title both female-line grandchildren and male-line grandchildren of the Sovereign as HRH Infanta/Infante of Spain, provided that they were born from a marriage wherein

1) the spouse was of "equal" birth, and
2) the spouse married into the Spanish royal family and not the other way around.

If the spouse was of "unequal" rank, or the monarch's grandchildren were being brought up outside of Spain as members of a foreign royal family, then the children were not given royal titles, regardless of whether their parent was a Bourbon prince or a Bourbon princess.


Thus:

- the female-line grandchildren of King Alfonso XII by his daughters Princess María de las Mercedes and Infanta María Teresa,
- the female-line grandchildren of Queen Isabel II by her daughter Infanta María Eulalia,
- the female-line grandchildren of King Fernando VII by his daughter Infanta María Luisa Fernanda,
- and the female-line grandchildren of King Carlos IV by his daughter Infanta María Luisa,

were all HRH Infantas and Infantes of Spain.

The royal decrees creating them (as well as the royal decrees creating male-line grandchildren) Infantas and Infantes can be read here:

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/infantes.htm#decrees


The custom was breached by King Juan Carlos I's Royal Decree of November 12, 1987, which ruled that going forward, both male-line and female-line grandchildren of the King or Queen of Spain (other than the children of the heir) will be "only" Excellencies.

https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1987-25284

Again, there is still no inequality between male-line and female-line grandchildren.

 

[Mbruno]

Moving this post from the Danish forum:


In Spain under the Bourbon dynasty (until 1987), it was the custom to title both female-line grandchildren and male-line grandchildren of the Sovereign as HRH Infanta/Infante of Spain, provided that they were born from a marriage wherein

1) the spouse was of "equal" birth, and
2) the spouse married into the Spanish royal family and not the other way around.

If the spouse was of "unequal" rank, or the monarch's grandchildren were being brought up outside of Spain as members of a foreign royal family, then the children were not given royal titles, regardless of whether their parent was a Bourbon prince or a Bourbon princess.


Thus:

- the female-line grandchildren of King Alfonso XII by his daughters Princess María de las Mercedes and Infanta María Teresa,
- the female-line grandchildren of Queen Isabel II by her daughter Infanta María Eugenia,
- the female-line grandchildren of King Fernando VII by his daughter Infanta María Luisa Fernanda,
- and the female-line grandchildren of King Carlos IV by his daughter Infanta María Luisa,

were all HRH Infantas and Infantes of Spain.

The children of Infanta María Luisa (daughter of King Carlos IV) were not raised in Spain. In fact her son, despite having been born in Spain, later ruled as Duke of Parma and Duke of Lucca (and briefly, as a minor, as King of Etruria, under a regency by her mother). I believe he was not yet 4 years old when he moved to Italy.

I am also confused about your reference to the Infanta María Eugenia. Could it be perhaps the Infanta María Eulalia instead?

 

[Somebody]

Moving this post from the Danish forum:


In Spain under the Bourbon dynasty (until 1987), it was the custom to title both female-line grandchildren and male-line grandchildren of the Sovereign as HRH Infanta/Infante of Spain, provided that they were born from a marriage wherein

1) the spouse was of "equal" birth, and
2) the spouse married into the Spanish royal family and not the other way around.

If the spouse was of "unequal" rank, or the monarch's grandchildren were being brought up outside of Spain as members of a foreign royal family, then the children were not given royal titles, regardless of whether their parent was a Bourbon prince or a Bourbon princess.


Thus:

- the female-line grandchildren of King Alfonso XII by his daughters Princess María de las Mercedes and Infanta María Teresa,
- the female-line grandchildren of Queen Isabel II by her daughter Infanta María Eulalia,
- the female-line grandchildren of King Fernando VII by his daughter Infanta María Luisa Fernanda,
- and the female-line grandchildren of King Carlos IV by his daughter Infanta María Luisa,

were all HRH Infantas and Infantes of Spain.

The royal decrees creating them (as well as the royal decrees creating male-line grandchildren) Infantas and Infantes can be read here:

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/infantes.htm#decrees


The custom was breached by King Juan Carlos I's Royal Decree of November 12, 1987, which ruled that going forward, both male-line and female-line grandchildren of the King or Queen of Spain (other than the children of the heir) will be "only" Excellencies.

https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1987-25284

Again, there is still no inequality between male-line and female-line grandchildren.

The main inequality between male-line and female-line grandchildren is of course that male-line grandchildren are more likely to be children of the heir and therefore infante/infantas of Spain than female-line grandchildren as the eldest SON is the heir and not the eldest CHILD. If not, Felipe's daughters would have been excellencies and Elena's son and daughter would have been Infante/Infanta of Spain (with Elena is queen).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The children of Infanta María Luisa (daughter of King Carlos IV) were not raised in Spain.

In fact her son, despite having been born in Spain, later ruled as Duke of Parma and Duke of Lucca (and briefly, as a minor, as King of Etruria, under a regency by her mother). I believe he was not yet 4 years old when he moved to Italy.

Yes, all that is true. But at the time of his parents' marriage, when the king ordained that his son-in-law and the couple's potential children would be Infante/Infanta of Spain, the couple had settled in Spain and, as you said, their son was raised there during his earliest years.

He and his sister never lost the title of Infante/Infanta of Spain even after their parents relocated with them to Italy. See for example the declaration of of court mourning at the Spanish court on the occasion of his death in 1883, where he is referred to as ""S. A. R. el Infante de España D. Carlos Luis de Borbón, Duque reinante que fué de Parma".

https://boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//1883/109/A00175-00175.pdf


My post was directed at the popular but false claim that Spanish royal titles only descended in male line. As many people have cited various Infantas whose children did not carry Spanish royal titles as "evidence", the point was that these cases were not due to being female-line but because those children were born from unequal marriages, or marriages into foreign royal families, or marriages contracted after the 1987 royal decree limiting royal titles to the direct line (and that male-line descendants were subjected to these same requirements).

I am also confused about your reference to the Infanta María Eugenia. Could it be perhaps the Infanta María Eulalia instead?

Yes, indeed, I meant to write Eulalia. Thank you for spotting it in time for me to make the correction.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

They call him the Prince of Asturias. Was that retroactive?

Much like other dethroned ruling families of Europe, the Spanish Bourbons continued to lay claim to their former throne and titles even after they had been stripped from them. (However, like many other European pretenders from former kingdoms, Juan Carlos's father did eschew using the title of King and was instead known as Count of Barcelona - one of the subsidiary titles of the kings of Spain - once he succeeded his father Alfonso XIII as pretender to the Spanish throne.)

So, in the eyes of the Bourbon family, Juan Carlos was indeed Prince of Asturias from the moment of that his grandfather, the dethroned King Alfonso XIII, passed away. He was, however, not recognized as such by General Franco.

If you are asking whether the title was given retroactive legal recognition after his accession to the Spanish throne, the 1987 royal decree on the titles of the royal family could support that reading, although it is not specifically mentioned.

https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1987-25284

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Infante Sebastian of Spain (1811-1875) was a grandson of King Charles III of Spain and a grandson of Queen Maria I of Portugal.
He was granted the title of Infante of Portugal by alvara of December 9, 1811.
Please define by alvara.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Infante Sebastian of Spain (1811-1875) was a grandson of King Charles III of Spain and a grandson of Queen Maria I of Portugal.
He was granted the title of Infante of Portugal by alvara of December 9, 1811.
Please define by alvara.

I assume it means 'by permission' from grandmother Queen Maria I of Portugal.
He was not an Infante of Spain from birth but was granted that title in 1824 by his maternal grand-uncle, Ferdinand VII of Spain.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Stripping royal titles from their adult bearers? As I already mentioned a couple of times in this thread, it was done by King Juan Carlos I of Spain to many adult and teenage members of his family who had enjoyed royal titles under Francisco Franco's dictatorship when he executed his royal decree in 1987 by limiting recognition of royal titles in legal documents to the titles recognized in the decree, i.e., the titles which he and previous heads of the royal house had personally permitted. And while Nikolai of Denmark was "only" 23, Emanuela de Dampierre was already 74 years old when her nephew stripped her of her Franco-recognized Spanish HRH.

Stripping royal titles at a "random" moment? On the face of it, the timing of Juan Carlos's 1987 royal decree, and the concurrent stripping of royal titles which fell afoul of its stipulations, was senseless. It was already 12 years since General Franco's death, and there were no royal weddings or births taking place then. (The rumor is that the decree was precipitated by rumors that one of his HRH cousins was about to marry an actress.)

I am crossposting my comment from the Danish forum because I am interested in why King Juan Carlos I stripping royal titles from adult members of his family is perceived so much less negatively, at least on this forum, than Queen Margrethe II of Denmark doing the same. Is it because the king's move was mainly aimed at branches of the family which had been his competition for the Spanish throne, instead of his own grandchildren? Or perhaps because he was removing titles bestowed by someone else and not himself?

 

[JR76]

I am crossposting my comment from the Danish forum because I am interested in why King Juan Carlos I stripping royal titles from adult members of his family is perceived so much less negatively, at least on this forum, than Queen Margrethe II of Denmark doing the same. Is it because the king's move was mainly aimed at branches of the family which had been his competition for the Spanish throne, instead of his own grandchildren? Or perhaps because he was removing titles bestowed by someone else and not himself?

My guess is that it's because it was a long time ago, there has been very little modern controversy about the issue (the Duke of Anjou aside) and therefore many people don't know about it.
Also because those cut off from the royal family weren't immediate family members of the King who also at the time could do wrong.

 

[Stefan]

I am crossposting my comment from the Danish forum because I am interested in why King Juan Carlos I stripping royal titles from adult members of his family is perceived so much less negatively, at least on this forum, than Queen Margrethe II of Denmark doing the same. Is it because the king's move was mainly aimed at branches of the family which had been his competition for the Spanish throne, instead of his own grandchildren? Or perhaps because he was removing titles bestowed by someone else and not himself?

A difference is also that Emanuela de Dampierre was married to his uncle in a morganatc marriage and it wasn't JC or his father or grandfather who had recognized her as HRH but Franco.

 

[lula]

Obviously it has a lot to do with the fact that the Spanish monarchy was reinstated, and started with new laws. Those laws were adapted to the times and for Juan Carlos and the politicians of the time reducing the Royal Family made perfect sense.

All those who, within the previous laws of the Crown, had titles of infants were able to keep them. Since the marriages of the children of Alfonso XIII were morganatic, except that of Juan de Borbón, the other descendants had already lost their rights.