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  #181  
Old 08-01-2016, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
Veering off the topic ...
I chatted with a Spaniard, who mentioned that Don Jaime (not Infanta Elena) can leave the title in question to whoever he wants. I am not sure if it is true.

It is great that Infanta Cristina's eldest son will inherit her title.
Don Jaime doesn't have a title,his brother is the Count and Infanta Cristina is no longer a Duchess.
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  #182  
Old 08-02-2016, 06:28 AM
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Don Jaime doesn't have a title,his brother is the Count and Infanta Cristina is no longer a Duchess.
Also, the duchies given to the Infantas, and by extension their husband and ex-husband, were given for life. The titles cannot be passed on to their children. Doña Cristina'a former title should already have been restored to the crown. Doña Elena's title will be restored to the crown when she dies as is the case for the titles given to the Infantas Pilar and Margarita by King Juan Carlos.
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  #183  
Old 08-02-2016, 07:05 AM
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Infanta Margarita's dukedom of Hernani can be passed and her son HE Don Alfonso Juan Carlos Zurita will inherit this title.The dukedom of Soria will revert to the Crown.

Infanta Pilars late husband Don Luis also held the personal title of Viscount de la Torre which was inherited by his eldest son ,HE Don Juan Filiberto Nicolás Gómez-Acebo in 1991 following the death of Don Luis.
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  #184  
Old 08-02-2016, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
The infantas were granted Life peerages upon marriage, meaning neither Lugo or Palma could be inherited. Their kids are don/donna as kids of infantas and that is all they will be.
Anyone may be addressed as Don/Doña or Señor/Señora, but the children of Infantas and Infantes have the special treatment of Excelencia (or Excelentísimo Señor/Excelentísima Señora).

Quote:
Art. 4.º
Los hijos de los Infantes de España tendrán la consideración de Grandes de España, sin que ello dé origen a un tratamiento especial distinto del de Excelencia.
BOE.es - Documento BOE-A-1987-25284
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  #185  
Old 01-07-2018, 02:48 PM
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Can the titles of Count of Molina, Count of Montemolin, and Count of Montizon still be used in the Spanish Royal Family?
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  #186  
Old 01-07-2018, 02:54 PM
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Those are titles used by Carlist claimant and I cannot see them being granted by the current King of Spain.
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  #187  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:47 PM
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I have two questions for the experts on this forum:


  1. The Royal Decree 1368/87 says that: "Los hijos de los Infantes de España tendrán la consideración de Grandes de España". Does that mean they actually are Grandees of Spain, or just that they are entitled to the same honors and styles of a grandee ? The text seems confusing to me.
  2. As far as I understand, the heir to a grandeeship is also entitled to the style of Excelentísimo Senõr, whereas the younger children of a (hereditary) grandee are styled Ilustrísimo Senõr. Assuming the interpretation that the children of the infantas (like Felipe Juan Froilán for example) are (non-hereditary) grandees, will their children be entitled to the same style as children of (hereditary) grandees ? Similarly, would their spouses also have the style of Excelentísimo Señor or Excelentísima Señora ?
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  #188  
Old 07-22-2018, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I have two questions for the experts on this forum:
  1. The Royal Decree 1368/87 says that: "Los hijos de los Infantes de España tendrán la consideración de Grandes de España". Does that mean they actually are Grandees of Spain, or just that they are entitled to the same honors and styles of a grandee ? The text seems confusing to me.
  2. As far as I understand, the heir to a grandeeship is also entitled to the style of Excelentísimo Senõr, whereas the younger children of a (hereditary) grandee are styled Ilustrísimo Senõr. Assuming the interpretation that the children of the infantas (like Felipe Juan Froilán for example) are (non-hereditary) grandees, will their children be entitled to the same style as children of (hereditary) grandees ? Similarly, would their spouses also have the style of Excelentísimo Señor or Excelentísima Señora ?
While I am no expert and am unable to answer your questions, you might be interested in seeing the styles that the various children-in-law and grandchildren of Infantas and Infantes were given at the wedding of the Prince of Asturias to Letizia Ortiz.

http://www.casareal.es/ES/Documents/...osCatedral.pdf


Spouses of children of Infantas/Infantes:

Excmo. Señor Don José Miguel Fernández Sastrón [son-in-law of Infanta Pilar]
Excma. Señora Doña Bárbara Cano de la Plaza [daughter-in-law of Infanta Pilar]
Excma. Señora Doña Emanuela Pratolongo, Viuda de Borbón Dampierre [daughter-in-law of Infante Jaime]
Excma. Señora Blagena Svitakova [daughter-in-law of Infanta Beatriz]


Grandchildren of Infantas/Infantes:

Excmo. Señor Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez-Bordiú [grandson of Infante Jaime]
Excmo. Señor Don Alvaro Jaime de Orleans-Borbón y Parodi Delfino [grandson of Infante Alfonso de Orleans]
Señor Don Juan de Bagration y Ulloa [grandson of Infanta Mercedes]


Spouses of grandchildren of Infantas/Infantes:

Excma. Señora Doña Giovanna San Martino d'Aglie di San Germano [wife of Alvaro Jaime de Orleans-Borbón]
Señora Doña Floriane del Río y Thorn [wife of Juan de Bagration]


It is worth mentioning that in Spanish law, the fathers of Luis Alfonso and Alvaro Jaime were Royal Highnesses, albeit not Infantes, whereas Juan's father was neither a Royal Highness nor an Infante.
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  #189  
Old 07-23-2018, 05:49 AM
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None of us are experts Tatiana Maria but thanks for taking the time and explaining all that ,Spanish titles are not the easiest to explain!
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  #190  
Old 07-23-2018, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
While I am no expert and am unable to answer your questions, you might be interested in seeing the styles that the various children-in-law and grandchildren of Infantas and Infantes were given at the wedding of the Prince of Asturias to Letizia Ortiz.

http://www.casareal.es/ES/Documents/...osCatedral.pdf


Spouses of children of Infantas/Infantes:

Excmo. Señor Don José Miguel Fernández Sastrón [son-in-law of Infanta Pilar]
Excma. Señora Doña Bárbara Cano de la Plaza [daughter-in-law of Infanta Pilar]
Excma. Señora Doña Emanuela Pratolongo, Viuda de Borbón Dampierre [daughter-in-law of Infante Jaime]
Excma. Señora Blagena Svitakova [daughter-in-law of Infanta Beatriz]


Grandchildren of Infantas/Infantes:

Excmo. Señor Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez-Bordiú [grandson of Infante Jaime]
Excmo. Señor Don Alvaro Jaime de Orleans-Borbón y Parodi Delfino [grandson of Infante Alfonso de Orleans]
Señor Don Juan de Bagration y Ulloa [grandson of Infanta Mercedes]


Spouses of grandchildren of Infantas/Infantes:

Excma. Señora Doña Giovanna San Martino d'Aglie di San Germano [wife of Alvaro Jaime de Orleans-Borbón]
Señora Doña Floriane del Río y Thorn [wife of Juan de Bagration]


It is worth mentioning that in Spanish law, the fathers of Luis Alfonso and Alvaro Jaime were Royal Highnesses, albeit not Infantes, whereas Juan's father was neither a Royal Highness nor an Infante.



Thank you very much, Tatiana. That was very helpful !


I don't understand why D. Luis Alfonso de Borbón would be an Excmo. Sr. in Spain in 2004. I suppose he would have this style by right today, as his mother, if I am not mistaken, is now a grandee of Spain (having become the 2nd Duchess of Franco) and, as the heir to the dukedom and the grandeeship, he is entitled to the style of Excelencia, but, again, that wasn't the case yet in 2004. Since D. Luis is not a knight grand cross of a Spanish order either and, as far as I know, doesn't hold any high public office in Spain, I guess the only explanation for him to be referred to as Excmo. Sr. at his cousin's wedding must be the fact that his father was an HRH in Spain.


Nevertheless, that is still irregular. The royal decree 1368/1987 deals with two classes of children of HRHs:


  1. Children of the Prince or Princess of Asturias, who are infantes/infantas of Spain and HRHs themselves.
  2. Children of infantes/infantas of Spain, who are considered grandees of Spain and, by implication, bear the style of Excmo. Sr. or Excma. Sra. , which is also extended by courtesy to their consorts.
Members of the family of King Juan Carlos who previously held a title of nobility belonging to the Royal House and the style of HRH, as was the case with Luis Alfonso's father, were allowed by the royal decree to keep their titles and styles while they were alive, but those titles and styles were explicitly barred from being extended to their spouses or transmitted to their descendants. Hence, D. Luis is neither an HRH, nor Duke of Cádiz in Spain. He is not a grandee either, as his father's grandeeship was also non-transmissible. And, since his father was not an infante, category 2 above doesn't apply either.


So, the mystery thickens. Any theory to clarify it ?
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  #191  
Old 07-24-2018, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Thank you very much, Tatiana. That was very helpful !


I don't understand why D. Luis Alfonso de Borbón would be an Excmo. Sr. in Spain in 2004. I suppose he would have this style by right today, as his mother, if I am not mistaken, is now a grandee of Spain (having become the 2nd Duchess of Franco) and, as the heir to the dukedom and the grandeeship, he is entitled to the style of Excelencia, but, again, that wasn't the case yet in 2004. Since D. Luis is not a knight grand cross of a Spanish order either and, as far as I know, doesn't hold any high public office in Spain, I guess the only explanation for him to be referred to as Excmo. Sr. at his cousin's wedding must be the fact that his father was an HRH in Spain.


Nevertheless, that is still irregular. The royal decree 1368/1987 deals with two classes of children of HRHs:


  1. Children of the Prince or Princess of Asturias, who are infantes/infantas of Spain and HRHs themselves.
  2. Children of infantes/infantas of Spain, who are considered grandees of Spain and, by implication, bear the style of Excmo. Sr. or Excma. Sra. , which is also extended by courtesy to their consorts.
Members of the family of King Juan Carlos who previously held a title of nobility belonging to the Royal House and the style of HRH, as was the case with Luis Alfonso's father, were allowed by the royal decree to keep their titles and styles while they were alive, but those titles and styles were explicitly barred from being extended to their spouses or transmitted to their descendants. Hence, D. Luis is neither an HRH, nor Duke of Cádiz in Spain. He is not a grandee either, as his father's grandeeship was also non-transmissible. And, since his father was not an infante, category 2 above doesn't apply either.


So, the mystery thickens. Any theory to clarify it ?
You're welcome! You are probably more knowledgeable than I am on the matter, but here are my ideas.

1. Was Luis Alfonso recognized as Excmo. Sr. by King Juan Carlos before 1987, in which case, as you mentioned, he would be allowed by the royal decree 1368/1987 to retain it?

2. Are children of non-hereditary grandees entitled to the same styles as children of hereditary grandees? (For comparison, in Britain, children of life barons enjoy the same styles as children of hereditary barons.) This theory could not apply to Alvaro Jaime de Orleans-Borbón being Excmo. Sr., as his father was not a Spanish duke. But his father was granted the same rank and honors as an Infante, and I wonder if that implies that his children were entitled to be addressed as children of Infantes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
The only people titled Prince and Princess in Spain are the Prince and Princess of Asturias.
That used to be the precedent, but many people in Spain descended from the Royal Family have claimed the title of Prince/ss, with or without recognition.
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  #192  
Old 07-31-2018, 03:40 PM
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How does one say "you" (or the equivalent thereof) in Spanish to:


1) The King/Queen of Spain and his//her consort;


2) The Prince/Princess of Asturias;


3) Infantes/infantas of Spain;



and



4) Children of infantes/infantas of Spain ?




Just to clarify, as an illustrative example, I would to like to know how to ask e.g. "Did you enjoy your summer holidays ? " in Spanish to each of the persons named above.


Thank you for your reply.
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  #193  
Old 07-31-2018, 06:35 PM
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'Usted'; the formal you is frequently used and would be used for most people you don't personally know, so it would certainly be appropriate for the (adult) members of the royal family.

In practice you can leave out the usted and just use the 3rd person singular of the verb (you would use 2nd person singular if you intended to use the informal 'tu').
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  #194  
Old 07-31-2018, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
'Usted'; the formal you is frequently used and would be used for most people you don't personally know, so it would certainly be appropriate for the (adult) members of the royal family.

In practice you can leave out the usted and just use the 3rd person singular of the verb (you would use 2nd person singular if you intended to use the informal 'tu').
Are you sure ? I was under the impression that the King should never be addressed as Usted since Usted ( = Vuestra Merced) is a lower form of address than Vuestra Majestad ( Your Majesty) . I noticed that , in some speeches, Prince Felipe used second person plural forms to address his father , but the goal of my message is to find out what the official recommended usage is.
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  #195  
Old 07-31-2018, 07:47 PM
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Are you sure ? I was under the impression that the King should never be addressed as Usted since Usted ( = Vuestra Merced) is a lower form of address than Vuestra Majestad ( Your Majesty) . I noticed that , in some speeches, Prince Felipe used second person plural forms to address his father , but the goal of my message is to find out what the official recommended usage
Looks like you are right.

Wikipedia provides the following explanation:
Quote:
*Majestad*es el tratamiento protocolario que designa el Real Decreto 1368/1987.​ En lengua oral, sin embargo, es usado el de*señor. Si se emplea la dignidad mayestática, el tiempo empleado debe ser la segunda persona del plural; por el contrario, si se emplea*señor, se emplea la tercera persona del singular. En ningún caso debe ser tratado de usted.
What still stands is the use of the third person singular when just asking a question without the need to insert anything (per your example), if the specifically wanted to address him first, señor, would be appropriate.

Only in very official occassion the second person plural would be used (as you noticed).
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  #196  
Old 07-05-2019, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Troy Thompson View Post
Now, there's only one case in recent history that comes to my mind of a bastard being given a royal title, that being Leandro Alfonso Luis de Borbón Ruiz Austria, the illegitimate half-uncle of former Spanish King Juan Carlos, who was granted the right to use the title of Infante by court order on May 21, 2003. That was only possible because the Spanish judiciary willed it (and it surely didn't hurt that Leandro had a warm relationship with his nephew; it also didn't hurt that Leandro was a royal bastard rather than just the bastard of a royal—the distinction there being that a royal bastard is the illegitimate child of a sovereign (Alfonso XIII, in Leandro's case)).
I have only read that Leandro was given the name of Borbón, and not a title; do you have a source for the latter?

http://www.elmundo.es/cronica/2003/398/1054464138.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Actually, under current Spanish law (royal decree 1368/1987), the King of Spain can exceptionally extend the dignity of Infante to any person he deems worthy, with the caveat that those so-called "infantes de gracia" bear the style of Highness only, as opposed to Royal Highness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Thompson View Post
At the risk of creating another tangent: Is the Spanish title infante de gracia then roughly equivalent to the French title légitimé? Well, of course not generally, seeing as it can be granted to anyone, but when granted to a (legitimized) bastard, would they then be somewhat equivalent?
I'm not sure the terms are comparable given that "de gracia" is not a title as such, but rather a term indicating that the individual was not entitled in common law to the title of Infante, but was granted it by the grace of the Sovereign.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/infantes.htm
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  #197  
Old 07-06-2019, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I have only read that Leandro was given the name of Borbón, and not a title; do you have a source for the latter?

http://www.elmundo.es/cronica/2003/398/1054464138.html
I was mistaken. Leandro was never given the title of Infante.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I'm not sure the terms are comparable given that "de gracia" is not a title as such, but rather a term indicating that the individual was not entitled in common law to the title of Infante, but was granted it by the grace of the Sovereign.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/infantes.htm
"Légitimé" wasn't really a title either, though, but rather a shortening of "prince légitimé", wherein "légitimé" serves as a qualifier indicating the the prince in question, unlike the princes du sang (who were all legitimate), was a legitimized bastard. Either way, that is still not a categorical equivalence, nor did I mean it to be. Rather, I was pondering about whether, in the hypothetical case of a Spanish royal bastard who was granted the title of Infante by the Sovereign's grace, in that specified case might the entitlement be similar in principle (that is, to say, someone who is not entitled in virtue of the regular rules becomes so by special dispensation).
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  #198  
Old 07-06-2019, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Infanta Margarita's dukedom of Hernani can be passed and her son HE Don Alfonso Juan Carlos Zurita will inherit this title.The dukedom of Soria will revert to the Crown.

Infanta Pilars late husband Don Luis also held the personal title of Viscount de la Torre which was inherited by his eldest son ,HE Don Juan Filiberto Nicolás Gómez-Acebo in 1991 following the death of Don Luis.
I understand Don Juan is an HE ( or Excelentísimo Señor) because he is a son of an infanta of Spain and, therefore, is given the same style of a grandee. However, if I am not mistaken, his hereditary title of viscount is not attached to a grandeeship of Spain. Does that mean that his heir ( the future viscount) will be only Ilustrísimo Señor ?
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  #199  
Old 07-06-2019, 10:56 AM
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Infanta Pilar's husband was styled His Excellency,Don Luis Gómez-Acebo,Duke consort of Badajoz ,Grande de España & Vizconde de la Torre during his lifetime.
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Old 07-06-2019, 11:04 AM
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Infanta Pilar's husband was styled His Excellency,Don Luis Gómez-Acebo,Duke consort of Badajoz ,Grande de España & Vizconde de la Torre during his lifetime.
Maybe his HE was acquired by marriage. Again I don’t think the title of Vuscount de La Torre is attached to a grandeeship, but I may be wrong . Does anybody know ?
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