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  #21  
Old 07-15-2005, 03:05 PM
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and letizia's sons are going to be "borbón y ortiz", "Ortiz y Borbón" or "Borbón ortiz"?
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  #22  
Old 07-15-2005, 03:14 PM
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de Borbon y Ortiz
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  #23  
Old 07-15-2005, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rchainho
and letizia's sons are going to be "borbón y ortiz", "Ortiz y Borbón" or "Borbón ortiz"?
In Spain, the last name belongs to the mother's side, in spite of the fact that the most important name is still the father's (i.e. the penultimate name).
So, the new Infante shall be name Borbón y Ortiz.
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  #24  
Old 07-15-2005, 03:37 PM
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According to the Official website of the Royal Family of Spain she is Irene de Todos los Santos Urdangarin y de Borbón.
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Old 07-15-2005, 03:43 PM
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Yes, you're right:
http://www.casareal.es/casareal/bauire01.html

Thanks, Ennyllorac :)
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  #26  
Old 07-16-2005, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ennyllorac
According to the Official website of the Royal Family of Spain she is Irene de Todos los Santos Urdangarin y de Borbón.
so, she has "todos los santos" in her name.
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  #27  
Old 07-16-2005, 01:07 PM
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I do not know the reason why the name of the father is more important because they do not place it in the end as in Portugal and other countries.For the logic, if the name of the mother is the last one will be this, the name to be
sharp. Also already I know that the name of the mother, in Spain, is
forgotten (Example: Letizia Ortiz Rocasolano). Rocasolano is forgotten to all media and spanish people.
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  #28  
Old 07-16-2005, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rchainho
Also already I know that the name of the mother, in Spain, is
forgotten (Example: Letizia Ortiz Rocasolano). Rocasolano is forgotten to all media and spanish people.
I forget now -- does the name Ortiz belong to her father or to her mother?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rchainho
I do not know the reason why the name of the father is more important because they do not place it in the end as in Portugal and other countries.For the logic, if the name of the mother is the last one will be this, the name to be
sharp.
I was under the presumption that in Spain and in nations that included both the mother and father's last names and where the mother's name was last, it was because of the theory that "You can always be certain who your mother is, but not necessarily your father."

In North American countries, if a mother's maiden name is included as part of a child's name, it is usually hyphenated and precedes the father's name.
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Old 07-16-2005, 02:45 PM
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[QUOTE=Alexandria]I forget now -- does the name Ortiz belong to her father or to her mother?

Ortiz= father
Rocasolano= mother
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  #30  
Old 08-22-2005, 01:10 PM
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Why i hear always the short version of the spanish anthem? Why spanish people don't put her right hand on their heart? Why the anthem doesn't have the lyric? Isn't patriotic?





http://www.himnonacional.org/decreto97.html



21605 REAL DECREE 1560/1997, of 10 of October, by that the National anthem is regulated

De conformity with the anticipated thing in article 97 of the Law of the Patrimony of the State of 15 of April of 1964 and in article 43 of the Law of Intellectual Property of 12 of April of 1996, Real Decree 1543/1997, 3 of October, had the exclusive acquisition by the State of the operation rights of the traditionally well-known work like "Granadera March" or "Spanish Real March".

Dada the nature of this work, it is opportune regular, also, its character and use like national anthem of Spain and to establish, formally, the official score, its different versions and the different modalities from interpretation.

they En its virtue, to proposal of the President of the Government and previous deliberation of the Cabinet in its meeting of day 10 of October of 1997.

I ARRANGE:

Article 1.

El national anthem of Spain is the well-known traditionally by "Granadera March" or "Spanish Real March". Its official score will be the one that appears in annexed of the Real present the Decree.

Article 2.

El national anthem of Spain will be interpreted in agreement with the following directives:

a) Will consist technically of a phrase of sixteen compasses, divided in two sections, each one of which will have four repeated compasses. The metronómica indication will be of equal six and seventy black and the tonality of If greater b. Their durations will be of fifty and two seconds for the complete version and of twenty-seven seconds for the brief version.

b) will be understood by brief version the interpretation of the four compasses of each section, without repetition.

c) the scores of band, orchestra and reduction for organ are those that are contained in the annex of this Real Decree and will serve as reference for any version of camera group.

d) the national anthem of Spain, in anyone of its two versions, will always completely interpret and a single time.

Article 3.

El national anthem will be interpreted, when it comes:

1. In complete version:

a) In the acts of tribute to the Flag of Spain.

b) In the official acts which it attends His Majesty the King or Her Majesty the Queen.

c) In the official acts which consorte attends Reina or consorte of Reina.

d) In the other acts anticipated in the Regulation of Military honorses.

2. In brief version:

a) In the official acts which Prince de Asturias, His Height Real attend Their Height Real Princess de Asturias or Her Heights Reales the Infants of Spain.

b) In the official acts which he attends the President of the Government.

c) In the sport acts or of any other nature in which there is an official representation of Spain.

d) In the other cases anticipated in the Regulation of Military honorses.

Article 4.

La attitude of respect to the national anthem of the assistants to the acts in which it is interpreted will express, in the case of the uniformed personnel of the Armed Forces and the Forces of Security, carrying out the prescribed greeting.

Article 5.

De protocolic agreement with the the custom and habitual use, when the the Real Person or Authority to that refer the article 3 of the Real the present Decree attend to official act of general character organize by a an Independent Community or Local Corporation, whenever the the nature of the the act require the the interpretation of the the national anthem nacional, this one make in agreement with the the following criterion:

a) When when beginning the act is predicted the execution of official hymns of the Independent Communities or the Local Corporations, the national anthem of Spain will be interpreted in the first place.

b) In the cases in that it is predicted the execution of expressed hymns when finalizing the act, the national anthem of Spain will be interpreted last.

Article 6.

1. In the acts and celebrated official visits of international character in Spanish territory, when national anthems must be executed, they will be interpreted, in the first place, the foreign hymns and later the national anthem of Spain. In the goodbyes, they will be interpreted in inverted order. Equal order will be observed in the official visits of foreign ships military.

2. In foreign ports, on board of the ships of the Navy, the national anthem of Spain will be interpreted in the first place and next the one of the nation host.

3. In any case the foreign national anthem interpretation accompanied wrath always of the national anthem of Spain.

Transitory disposition first.

1. In the term of two months from the publication of the Real present Decree, the different organisms and institutions, as much public as prevailed, will adapt the interpretation of the national anthem from Spain to the official score.

2. During the indicated term, the modalities and times of duration of the interpretation of the national anthem will be able to be fit to the effective version until the take effect of the Real present Decree or, in their case, to the established thing in the custom.

Transitory disposition second.

Hasta as much modifies the Regulation of Military honorses, and to the effects anticipated in article 3 of Real the present Decree, the references that the expressed Regulation contains to the "complete national anthem" and "the first complete part", will be understood done to the complete version. Also, the references of this same disposition to the "first part without repetition", will be understood done to the brief version.

Unique disposition derogatoria.

Queda countermanded the Real circular Order of 27 of August of 1908 in which one talks about the Real completion of a march; the Decree of 17 of 1942 July, on the national anthem, and whichever dispositions are against hereby established the Real Decree.

Unique final disposition.

El present Real Decree will take effect the same day of its publication in the "Government reporter of the State".

Dice in Madrid to 10 of October of 1997.
JUAN CARLOS R.
The President of the Government,
JOSE MARIA AZNAR LOPEZ


Later correction of errors to the Real Decree

22261 CORRECTION of erratas of Real Decree 1560/1997, of 10 of October, by that the National anthem is regulated.

Advertida errata in the annex of Real Decree 1560/1997, of 10 of October, by that the National anthem is regulated, published in the "Government reporter of the State" number 244 of the 11, is come to carry out the opportune modification: they En page 29600, score of the National anthem of Spain, organ reduction, in the beginning of the third compass, in which it appears the square of first, it must be suppressed and in the beginning transfer it of the fourth compass.
NOTE - www.himnonacional.org has corrected east error with a program of photographic adjustment,
reason why the reduction for organ that we offer in this Web comes already modified

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  #31  
Old 08-22-2005, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rchainho
I do not know the reason why the name of the father is more important because they do not place it in the end as in Portugal and other countries.For the logic, if the name of the mother is the last one will be this, the name to be
sharp. Also already I know that the name of the mother, in Spain, is
forgotten (Example: Letizia Ortiz Rocasolano). Rocasolano is forgotten to all media and spanish people.
Well, I have to say that I'm not very sure, but I think that now you can choose the order of your surnames, so the parents can put the surname of the mother first. For example, if I would have a baby and my surname would be "López" and the surname of the baby's father would be "Puig", I would be able to name my child "Puig López" or "López Puig"

As this is a recent law in Spain, those who were born some time ago can change the order of their surnames now.

Another possibility is to make a mix between your father's surname and your mother's surname and have a combined surname. For example, López-Puig is a combined sur name. With this possibility, your mother's surname wouldn't disappear in next generations.

I hope that, even with my poor English, you all can understand this mix-up without racking your brains.
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  #32  
Old 08-29-2005, 11:55 AM
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Protocol

Some time ago (on the occasion of the Princes' trip to Panama), I was reading an article published in epasa.com, which was written by an expert on protocol, whose name I can't remember anymore.
Anyway, according to him, when one meets the Princes of Asturias, we can greet them simply saying "encantado/a de conocerlo/a" (i.e. "nice to meet you"), while shaking their hands, but being careful enough so not to touch their forearms (I wonder very much why on hearth would someone touch forearms when shaking their hands, but never mind!…).
Another tip given by this expert (a quite obvious one, by the way...) was that you can never, ever slap them on their back (...I'm now just imagining someone embracing the Prince in a huge bear hug, during an official act: HEY JUDE!!!... ) and you must also let them take the initiative, if they want to greet you with a kiss.
Your greetings can also be accompanied by a slight inclination of your head, but only the Spanish women are allowed to curtsey, and only the Spanish men are allowed to hand-kiss the Princess (however, you must do that only if you know how to do it properly… ). Besides, Prince Felipe greets every lady with a hand-kiss.

Now, I wonder how it is, regarding the king and queen. If I was to meet KJC or QS, what should I do then?... I suppose protocol would also say I shouldn't courtesey them, right?
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  #33  
Old 09-15-2005, 10:24 AM
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Question The ID cards of the Spanish royals

I saw today in the programm "SABER Y GANAR" that the spanish royal family has a specific number in their Identity Card from 10 to 99 (DNI in spanish and BI in Portugal).

For example:
The king ID nr is 10
The Queen ID nr is 11
Elena ID nr is 12
Cristina ID nr is 14
Felipe ID nr is 15.

Do you know Letizia's ID nr?

http://www.elmundo.es/cronica/2004/438/1078755910.html
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  #34  
Old 09-15-2005, 10:57 AM
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I tried translating the website article into english without much success.

If anyone can help I don't know what an 'identity card' means, what importance does it have in Spain?
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  #35  
Old 09-15-2005, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layla1971
I tried translating the website article into english without much success.

If anyone can help I don't know what an 'identity card' means, what importance does it have in Spain?
The national Document of identity is a number that there have all the Spanish citizens (normally from the adult age) to identify. It is a card with your name and personal information (date of birth,address, etc ...) and the number that assigns you. It is necessary for many things, for all kinds of official documents, or for example, is what it allows you to travel for countries of the European Union without need of the passport.
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  #36  
Old 09-15-2005, 11:22 AM
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But you don't have this document? The English don't have it. In Portugal is the same as Spain but we called it "Bilhete de Identidade". The translation of the web.

60 YEARS OF IDENTITY MEMBERSHIP CARD

DNI: Franco has the 1; the King, the 10 FRANCo reserved number one. To the Royal Family it was assigned from the 10 to the 99. The 13 it was annulled by pure superstition and for that reason to Prince Felipe it corresponded the 15 to him. The identity membership card, that has turned this week 60 years from its creation in March of 1944, hoards a history filled with curiositiesJAVIER HORSEMAN. DANIEL IZEDDIN

Historical document
It takes enrolled the most intimate secret of folkloric and famous. Informer for looked for by Justice and the impossible challenge into the hands of falsifiers, travels in the portfolio of almost 30 million Spaniards. Also in the one of His Majesty the King, whose excelso lineage does not exempt to him of its possession. In fact, Don Juan Carlos I shows number 10. It could have the one, but that number was reserved for the then head of the State, Frank Francisco Bahamonde, as it illustrates the document to which it has had access CRONICA in exclusive right.


The DNI, the membership card of identity, papela that would say chelis, have turned this week 60 years and commemorate that distant decree of 2 of March of 1944 that illuminated its birth. Today since then he has been reflected of the social and political evolution of España.Nadie like him to show us to the iron control of the dictatorship, to airs of freedom of the transition, to the democratic normalization and that technological revolution that young person maintains to him and on approval of falsifiers. On the contrary that his possessor, the DNI does not age. He has renewed his clothes periodically. But until arriving at its flaming design that will be released in 2005, - which it includes chip and thousand shields -, the identity membership card as an older person seals types typewriter and red Chinese, its own intrahistory.

Their direct ancestors are born with the discovery of América.Muchos of the Spanish sailors who went and came from the Indians carried the call composition certificate, official document that gave faith of the identity of nauta. In the days of a incipiente ultramarine commerce, the Administration noticed itself of the obligation to know who was who. During centuries, the method with great difficulty worked in the middle of fiddles, componendas and chaos administrativo.No was until century XIX when the subject of the identity would take naturalization paper. In 1824, Fernando VII created the Police in our country and he granted the exclusive power to him to create registers that included age, sex, state, profession, and nature of the vecindario. "This one was his first attribution, competition that has stayed until the present time and that there is tie historically to the National Body of Police with the identity membership card", comments Jose Santiago Sanchez, commissioner commander of the Unit of Documentation of Spaniards of the National Police and maximum person in charge of the framework of the DNI.

After the regal order, the presses began to make identity cards and letters of security, direct antecedents of the DNI."Eran documents without much direct ascending identificativo value where name was included and. The majority went without photography and caused the picaresque one ", remarca Sanchez. "These certificates were issued by city councils and delegations for all those that made managements with official organisms", add the commissioner.

The decline of these certificates happened after the Civil War, fight that left a nation without name nor last names. The creation became necessary of a new document that started up through a decree in 1944. The reason? Fundamentally, the control, to have more and better controlled the Spaniards. The initiative left from Presidency of the Government, that is, of very same general Franco, in spite of which it had to hope until 1951 to release his own membership card of identity.

First forced to formalize it they were the prisoners and those that remained in parole. Secondly, the masculine personnel who by its profession or business changed with address assiduity. Thirdly, the resident men in cities of more than 100,000 inhabitants. Soon, the men in localities between 25,000 and 100,000 inhabitants, later the women who traveled by reasons for work and so on until completing with the years the set of the society.

The worse thing of this initiative was not in the machismo or the sexism, but that the membership card included a square to classify to the citizen according to economic his estatus. Those of first category were great potentados and the rural caciques. Those of second and third hoarded, gradually, less of great volume and possessions modestas.Por last, those of fourth were grouped in the poor calls "of solemnity", so miserable people that she was ruined to pay the rates of the DNI. One was not remote feudales eras. This pyramid stratified socially to Spain until year 1981.

Zaragoza was the first capital of province where the DNI was sent. One capital neither too populated nor excessively small turned out perfect to present the citizens its new identity. Everything worked without greater frights and the test extended later to Valencia. From the capital of the Turia, the method propagated to the rest of the large cities to completing 59 distributed stationary equipment in all the cities except Navarre.

Prior to its arrival, this traveling equipment decided with the mayor a particular previous appointment. Agreed to the day, a side communicated to the countrymen the arrival of the DNI insisting to take with himself any type to them of document sent by the Delegation or the City council, as well as a photography reciente.Algunos village not even counted on papers that authenticated their roots. Then as much the regidor, as the priest or the secretary of the villa presented faith of the identity of the subject to him all the life.

By surprising that seems nowadays, until 1962 also the DNI to all the resident foreigners in Spain was granted. As of this date, and by Real Decree 357 with date 22 of February, the DNI was exclusive for Spaniards.

DANCE OF I NUMBER

From a principle, and with a still effective method, the numbers of the DNI were assigned by lots to the expedition equipment. Thus, each police station or movable equipment who transacts the DNI, counts on a sufficient margin of free numbers. If it exhausts that fitted, a new lot, not necessarily corelative to anterior.Se is granted to him exiles therefore a false belief. The short numbers of the DNI did not correspond in the past to people who already are fallecido.Nadie shows "the number of a dead" as she affirms unfounded in bar conversations. The Unit of Documentation of Spaniards of the Police has mattress sufficient not to resort to that technique. In 54 years, 60 million membership cards have been sent about and still there are other 40 free million until the number of 99,999,999 sent membership cards is reached. No fario.Cada is reason for badly the españolito one releases number and it is not necessary to revive the figure of anybody. Because the number of the DNI is perpetual by reasons legales.Además is personal and intransferible. Be enough with thinking about transmissions of goods, testaments, bank loans and suplantaciones of personality. In people who die and return from the other world by the grace to have the same number of the membership card. "the DNI is like the Valiant Cid. It continues winning battles after dead ", indicates between smiles the commissioner head Jose Santiago Sanchez.

So and as they say old books of first inscription, - jealously guarded by the Police -, the numeration assigns by provinces and equipment. The police station of Santa Engracia in Madrid had the privilege to transact the first membership cards. Throwing a look to the first volume of registry, patent has left the cult to the personality of the Generalissimo. Number one adjudged for himself Frank Francisco to it Bahamonde. Question of gallons. The second took the name of its woman, Carmen Polo and Martinez Valdés. For its Frank Carmen daughter Pole went to stop number three. Of the quarter to ninth they have been vacant. Of the 10 in ahead and until number 99, they were blocked for the Spanish Royal Family. Number 10 was assigned to His Majesty the King, the 11 for Doña Sofía of Greece, the 12 for Infant Elena and the 14 for Infant Cristina.La superstition left the square of the 13 empty. The DNI of Their Height Real Prince Felipe shines the number 15, or pretty girl, an unexpected wink of the destiny now that sounds bells of real wedding. It is logical to think that small the Felipe Juan Froilán, Federica Victory, Juan Valentin, Pablo Nicholas and Miguel, - last grandson of the monarchs until the moment -, happens to their uncle the Prince in the correlation of numbers.

Democratic like few documents, the DNI does not know of monarchies nor rancid ancestries. By virtue of a 1985 decree, no longer the nobiliarios titles register that end at interminable last names. Therefore, they were avoided so much the clasismo, as a leafy genealogical tree that did not fit in the squares nor with most imaginative of the abbreviations. Kill not long time and in the occasion of the update of his DNI, Luis Alfonso de Borbón, son of the spoiled Duke of Cadiz, had to stop to continue shining the nobility of his origin in the membership card.
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Old 09-15-2005, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layla1971
If anyone can help I don't know what an 'identity card' means, what importance does it have in Spain?
I believe you don't have it in Australia; the closest equivalent you have is the passport. The identity card is the most important document we have, registering our name, date and place of birth, parents, sex, marital status, stature (high), photo, fingertips, signature, together with other informations (like criminal record, etc.). The nr. of that card is what identifies you in pratically everything... similarly to what happens with your passport number, I believe (in Spain, like in Portugal, not everyone has passport, since we only need one, if we're going to travel outside the European Union).
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Old 09-15-2005, 12:07 PM
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That sounds alot like the equivalent to the Social Security card here in the USA.
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  #39  
Old 09-16-2005, 05:23 AM
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Thanks alot lula, rchainho (BTW, thanks for such a quick translation) and Elsa M for all your information, it helps alot.

I think it is like our passport here but if we don't want to travel overseas we don't need a passport.

Even if we want to travel to countries within the commonwealth we do need a passport though.

We don't have any one form of official identification in Australia but there is a proposal for a law to have an official identity card for security purposes.

Most people consider this card would be an invasion of privacy, that it would make fraud and identity theft easier but I suppose other countries with these cards would know more about that than we do.
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Old 09-16-2005, 09:22 AM
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i have an english friend and he says that english people don't want an ID Card because it has a pic of the person that use those card, like we have in our ID Card (BI i Portugal). I laught a lot with that situation until now.
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