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  #161  
Old 07-22-2007, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
I think it does when the monarchy is not strong, as in Spain, because it undermines the opinion of many people that monarchy has its right to exist because it is different from common people (= royal status). What is special about a Queen who is "one of us"? Nothing, and in Letizia's case even worse because from her early statements we know that she took on her position as a "project" or a "new job", "going to work but in a different way". Nothing regal about that. Letizia may not be Head of State and only the Queen consort but it does reflect on Felipe as King and can have consequences for the monarchy itself in the end, good or bad, we don't know yet.
Felipe spoke first and brought up 'together we want to serve Spain in the best possible way'. Actually he was brought up to believe that the Head of State position couldn't be inherited, he would have to earn it by working hard everyday. On Letizia's part, what do you expect her to say ? If she had said she was born to marry a crown prince or destined to be a royal, fairytale blah blah, it would have made her more regal ? I'm glad she at least had/has some common sense, not be everyone's laughing stock.
It's true that certain sectors of Spanish society (mainly higher class nobles) don't like her humble origin, prefer traditional equal marriage. However, grandees or nobles have a lot more to lose if the monarchy is abolished. For their own benefits, they don't like to see the monarchy abolished even though they might not like the marriage. For the majority middle class, up to the task and serving the crown well is most important.
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  #162  
Old 07-22-2007, 08:56 AM
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Felipe spoke first and brought up 'together we want to serve Spain in the best possible way'. Actually he was brought up to believe that the Head of State position couldn't be inherited, he would have to earn it by working hard everyday. On Letizia's part, what do you expect her to say ? If she had said she was born to marry a crown prince or destined to be a royal, fairytale blah blah, it would have made her more regal ? I'm glad she at least had/has some common sense, not be everyone's laughing stock.
I think the interview reflects - has to reflect - the way Letizia thought on that day, probably still a bit naive or certainly not knowing what she was getting into. I don't blame her for that, Felipe knew better, because of the way he was raised. He gave the right answer, serving Spain, and Letizia is there to join him. Her answer, taking it on as a project, was not helpful because it added to her earlier image as career woman, who only married Felipe to get a bit further. Has changed in the meantime though, and Zarzuela decided to not let her speak for herself anymore, until today, as her statements might cause controversy. Felipe is much better here, but again, he has much more practice in giving statements on tricky issues.
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  #163  
Old 07-22-2007, 09:09 AM
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I remember Letizia mentioned "serving Spain", so did Felipe. I don't understand why that is so wrong. Do you think those royals who take their position for granted, wear their uniform or tiara well and party all year round more "regal"? Modern monarchs have to work to justify their existence and pay. I don't see how good work ethics can damage a monarchy. I can see poor work ethics does.

Or mayhaps you think no one without the blue blood can be "regal" or an asset to a monarchy? If that's your opinion, all European monarchies will distinct in one generation. The spouses of the heirs are all commoners, including late Diana.
This was Felipe's answer, Letizia spoke of "a project". However, it's a fact that the Spanish Monarchy is weak and they have to work even harder to be accepted by the majority of their citizens and Felipe might not get the golden opportunity to link himself with spanish history as his father did.

I didn't say or think that only blue blood is regal and you are right when saying that there are lots of commoners in other monarchies. What I wanted to say is that it can be helpful for stabilizing a monarchy to marry a spouse who is royal by birth, as JC did, and this applies to the spanish monarchy. The best proof is that JC and Sofia always wanted Felipe to marry a royal bride, sent him to lots of royal gatherings hoping he'd fall in love with a royal or at least noble lady. Well, he decided for Letizia and his parents are not that retarded to talk him out of his decision but try to make the best of it.

I wonder if Felipe had married a princess or noble lady if she would be the favourite subject of critizism of a certain press as Letizia has become.
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  #164  
Old 07-22-2007, 09:56 AM
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Duke, I believe that very you are mistaken, and because I know as works the Spanish society. We are a society extends, with different opinions.

To criticize Letizia for being plebeian, it is simply an excuse. Any person who was occupying the position of Princess of Asturias, was going to be a person criticized, because she would be a person foreign to the Royal Family who would pass to occupy a situation of privilege.

With any woman, someone would have found something that to criticize. Her past, her nationality, her religion, her education, her friends, her family, her attitude, her way of dressing, her personality...

To Queen Sofia did not help to be Princess, helped her to be a discreet woman, capable of realizing a serious work, and with it the respect of the Spanish to be gained. When the Queen Sofia came to Spain, she was only a foreign princess, who in addition had another religion. Later with the decision not to have court, and of not doing friendship with certain ladies of the Spanish aristocracy who were approaching her for interest ... the hatred was earned of many of them. It is not a chance, that both only faithful friends who have been always to the side of the Queen have been her sister Irene and her cousin Tatiana. For a long time the Queen Sofia was considered to be a "cold" woman, for some it was positive, a Queen had to be cold like is Queen Elisabeth II, but for great others it had a negative connotation... this image of coldness only has lost it with the arrival of her grandchildren.

It is evident that with the arrival of the Princess of Asturias, has opened a new paragraph in the treatment of the press and the public opinion ... or probably not ... the previous girlfriends of the Prince were treated also harshly... So the one that has turned into his wife has not escaped to these assaults either.

Neither it is a secret that in the last years the press is losing the limits, every time they do their work with fewer seriousness ... and it concerns all kinds of news and prominent figures, and not only the Royal Family ... the public opinion is getting used to this irresponsibility and to frivolous this one of seeing the life... In Spain every time there are fewer programs of serious information, and more programs of gossip and of yellow press ... the people already have enough with their own problems, they prefer seeing the miseries of powerful, rich and famous ... that the miseries of the world.

Over this cloud of levity ... ultimately, which the people are going to value is that the Princes are persons who realize their work responsibly and responsibility, and that are capable of being near their citizens when they it must be. The Princes, are the inheritors, and it forces them to occupy a secondary place after the Kings. It is not a secret that the Prince goes to abide a difficult work in succeed his father .. probably for it, every time it is a more evident the process of slow transition than is producing. The prince every time has more responsibilities, and when it happens things like the terrorist assault the military men of the Lebanon, the Prince can occupy his place.

The public opinion in Spain is in the habit of being contradictory, we like to be critics, and are in the habit of criticizing to the power. But ultimately we are responsible, and the public opinion always ends up by trusting that the Royal Family solves what the politicians do not solve ... example of it is that for all the surveys always are valued over the politicians. We are not a deeply monarchic country, but we are practical.
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  #165  
Old 07-22-2007, 04:40 PM
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We are not a deeply monarchic country, but we are practical.
Thank you for the insight Lula.
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  #166  
Old 07-22-2007, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
What I wanted to say is that it can be helpful for stabilizing a monarchy to marry a spouse who is royal by birth, as JC did, and this applies to the spanish monarchy.

I wonder if Felipe had married a princess or noble lady if she would be the favourite subject of critizism of a certain press as Letizia has become.
Royal brides are very very limited. How many royal brides of Felipe's age are out there? Martha Luis of Norway? She's pretty and seems nice and warm. Too bad she married before Felipe did. Stephanie of Monaco? She would probably rather sun bathing at Barcelona rather than staying in Madrid. I'm pretty sure she would have attracted more criticism than Letizia ever did. No one in UK. Madaleine of Sweden is too young for Felipe. No one in Denmark. No one in Netherland. Who else is out there? How would a foreign bride from a non-reigning royal houses or aristocracy add value to Spanish monarchy?
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  #167  
Old 07-23-2007, 04:17 AM
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Royal brides are very very limited. How many royal brides of Felipe's age are out there? Martha Luis of Norway? She's pretty and seems nice and warm. Too bad she married before Felipe did. Stephanie of Monaco? She would probably rather sun bathing at Barcelona rather than staying in Madrid. I'm pretty sure she would have attracted more criticism than Letizia ever did. No one in UK. Madaleine of Sweden is too young for Felipe. No one in Denmark. No one in Netherland. Who else is out there? How would a foreign bride from a non-reigning royal houses or aristocracy add value to Spanish monarchy?
Well, there were plenty of noble women around, even royal ones. Just to clarify, I did not say that it was wrong to marry Letizia and that he must have married a noble or royal woman, not at all. I was just reflecting about the situation is Spain and my thoughts are obviously not that far fetched because, and I repeat myself here, it is no secret that Queen Sofia had preferred a royal or noble woman to a commoner, and I am sure, not without a reason.
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  #168  
Old 07-23-2007, 05:07 AM
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Duke, I feel it but I will never be able to share your opinion, for two reasons.

Because to be of the royalty didn´t freed the Queen Sofia of the critiques, and many of these critiques were to the aristocracy.

Second, because the aristocracy is not always an example of behavior and dignity ... on the contrary ... often, having like they have money and prestige ... ultimately they end up by having a terrible behavior. They are not free of scandals, on the contrary. In Spain, The Duchess of Alba, more noble of the nobles, has a family that only has given scandals.
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  #169  
Old 07-23-2007, 06:15 AM
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Duke, I feel it but I will never be able to share your opinion, for two reasons.

Because to be of the royalty didn´t freed the Queen Sofia of the critiques, and many of these critiques were to the aristocracy.

Second, because the aristocracy is not always an example of behavior and dignity ... on the contrary ... often, having like they have money and prestige ... ultimately they end up by having a terrible behavior. They are not free of scandals, on the contrary. In Spain, The Duchess of Alba, more noble of the nobles, has a family that only has given scandals.
lula, we are not apart as I completely agree on what you say But why, from your point of view, was Queen Sofia so keen on marrying her son to a royal or noble bride if not for the advantage of the spanish monarchy?
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  #170  
Old 07-23-2007, 07:06 AM
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I believe that the ideas evolve and are different with the time. The King Juan Carlos and the Queen Sofia, lived a certain epoch and received a certain education, and it influences the way of thinking and acting. Not even their son, or the princesses or nobles who have grown in the generation of his son have had this education, and if they have had it would be considered to be some slowed down for their epoch.

I believe that many kings, and not only the Queen Sofia, think about a beginning that the best thing is a marriage between "equal" ... but ultimately the reason gives the orders. The Queen always has belonged the nearest to her son, and the one that has educated him ... a few years ago the Prince declared that he would marry for love, with a woman who was his companion in the life and in the work, with that he could form a family and with the one that could serve the Spanish. Not if the Queen has declared at some time that she wanted that his son was marrying someone of the royalty, if she did it, with the time she changed idea. It is more, I believe that this thought would be more of the King that of the Queen.

On the other hand, I believe that the experience of the Prince Charles taught all ... he married a young woman, virgin, beautiful, polite well, of good family ... but whom he did not love ... and ultimately everything finished like it finished. The things can have badly in a marriage for love, but at least happy epochs will have passed, and they will not have spent the life pretending and suffering.

In Europe there are many examples of plebeian Queens who have developed a good work, and of husbands of queens of noble origin who have not been so exemplary.

I believe that the respect is gained by the work, and not for belonging to a noble family. I believe that I would not mistake in thinking, that nowadays, many Spanish respect and admire more to Paloma Rocasolano than to many with the surname Borbón or Alba.
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  #171  
Old 07-23-2007, 07:21 AM
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I must tell you, to add a slightly different topic to the topic itself, that I wouldn't have chosen Juan Carlos to marry Sofia, back then.

Somehow she seemed fitted for a different noble... for me, even his "asking hand" act would/should have given Sofia the chills and make her running for her life, away from him.

So it is possible that besides the right wedding, between equals, Her Majesty also choose to follow her heart .

We, the terrible mothers, always wish the best for our sons and daughters and somehow we expect our children to marry people who have the same background and lives than us; so I guess it is normal that Queen Sofia would like for the future King of Spain a noble from the same background of Felipe. That's what mums(*) do they look around for the suitable girl to marry their Prince; they don't turn on the TV and wonder wouldn't be nice that presenter to my Felipe ?!

But the heart has designs that one can't predict, so all in all, having Felipe future, or not, as King of Spain is better for him to have married a woman he fell in love with because his life - present and future - will be better this way .

A Noble would be nice ONLY if he had felt in love with... which he didn't. As lula says the silver tea-spoom doesn't bring anything granted - if Felipe had chosen Duchess of Alba's daughter we'd be pulling our hair in despair


(*) and royal watchers too - as soon a baby is born we start thinking wouldn't be nice to marry one week old Lenor with two weeks old Christian; or something in that line. We don't go to the magazine and choose the son of Paz Vega to marry Infanta Sofia...
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  #172  
Old 07-23-2007, 07:29 AM
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In Europe there are many examples of plebeian Queens who have developed a good work, and of husbands of queens of noble origin who have not been so exemplary.
Exactly but I can't recall an example of a royal or noble husband who did not do well - just see Prince Philip or the late Prince Claus, both exceptional Queen consorts who gained lots of respect though their work as individuals.

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I believe that the respect is gained by the work, and not for belonging to a noble family
I completely agree - and to stick to your words, I hope that CP Letizia is given the opportunity in the future to gain respect through work that can be related to herself.
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  #173  
Old 07-23-2007, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
the late Prince Claus, both exceptional Queen consorts who gained lots of respect though their work as individuals.
Here enters the cultural thing, in Spain Prince Claus wouldn't have been considered exceptional for his work because the personal wasn't even more exceptional.

But you're right about those both successful equals marriage; it worked (but in the countries where they were consorts) - I can imagine that both being Consorts in Spain they wouldn't have been allowed to develop the extraordinary work they did (in Prince Claus case) and do (in Prince Philip case); that's not the Spanish way as we've talked in Princess Letizia case...
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  #174  
Old 07-23-2007, 07:42 AM
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Exactly but I can't recall an example of a royal or noble husband who did not do well - just see Prince Philip or the late Prince Claus, both exceptional Queen consorts who gained lots of respect though their work as individuals.
I believe that the worst example is the husband of the Queen of Denmark, a particular personage who has given more than one polemic news.
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  #175  
Old 07-23-2007, 07:46 AM
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Here enters the cultural thing, in Spain Prince Claus wouldn't have been considered exceptional for his work because the personal wasn't even more exceptional.
Yes, it's probably the Dutch way to do. First they offend their consorts for being foreigners or the past of their countries or their origins in the worst imaginable way, before they make a U turn after they have seen what they are capable of. Prince Claus used to be the most liked member of the Royal Family until his death, and Maxima is on her way to reach the same level
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  #176  
Old 07-23-2007, 07:56 AM
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I believe that the worst example is the husband of the Queen of Denmark, a particular personage who has given more than one polemic news.
You are right, although there is a discussion if Henrik's family has ever been ennobled and he is correctly being referred to as a count.

However, the last thing we heard from him was complaining about his title and that he would prefer himself being titled as "King" because he is married to a Queen So provided he was from a noble background he's a good example for a Queen consort not exactly being respected for the work he does
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  #177  
Old 07-23-2007, 09:27 PM
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I think the interview reflects - has to reflect - the way Letizia thought on that day, probably still a bit naive or certainly not knowing what she was getting into. I don't blame her for that, Felipe knew better, because of the way he was raised. He gave the right answer, serving Spain, and Letizia is there to join him. Her answer, taking it on as a project, was not helpful because it added to her earlier image as career woman, who only married Felipe to get a bit further. Has changed in the meantime though, and Zarzuela decided to not let her speak for herself anymore, until today, as her statements might cause controversy. Felipe is much better here, but again, he has much more practice in giving statements on tricky issues.
I don't remember exactly words they said in Spanish, but they were saying similar things on serving Spain as I remember. Spanish royals from top to bottom very seldom gave lengthy interviews. Letizia had answered questions in some QoA sections, she had talked to reporters or organizers of the events informally all the time. Thus I never got the impression that Zarzuela prohibited her to talk. The only difference I saw was that she didn't read the speeches from a piece of paper like Felipe did, but I wouldn't call those speaking out for herself. From I heard, she sat at the preparation meetings with Felipe and staffs together, had actively participated at setting the guidelines for the speeches, editing the speeches (some of her jounalist skills can be utilized here).
I found a translated copy of the small talk she gave the first time as the fiancee of Felipe.
Biography of Queen Letizia
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  #178  
Old 07-23-2007, 09:50 PM
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lula, we are not apart as I completely agree on what you say But why, from your point of view, was Queen Sofia so keen on marrying her son to a royal or noble bride if not for the advantage of the spanish monarchy?
From what I heard it was the King who wanted more to Felipe (all his children) to marry equally. He is more 'class' conscious. You can see that through his cold attitude towards his non-royal in-laws (He had never invited them for anything except for big events). Since he is not a good role model in his own marriage, he simply hadn't much voice at whom his children should marry IMO. It seemed that they didn't listen to him at all .
I had seen Sofia's interview at her 50-year-old birthday published by PdV on another board before. She clearly said that it was not necessarily for her son to marry a royal or a noble, but she wanted the education of her future daughter-in-law to match her son's, this way they could understand each other better. Maybe that was the reason she was not so against Felipe's selection of Letizia.
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  #179  
Old 07-24-2007, 04:48 AM
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From what I heard it was the King who wanted more to Felipe (all his children) to marry equally. He is more 'class' conscious. You can see that through his cold attitude towards his non-royal in-laws (He had never invited them for anything except for big events). Since he is not a good role model in his own marriage, he simply hadn't much voice at whom his children should marry IMO.
You might be right. I recall Felipe's wedding, shouldn't JC have walked into the cathedral with Paloma by his side instead of his sister. Not to mention the usual family pics with Letizia's family where he always looks as if he wants to be somewhere else Do you know if this is different with Jaime's family as there is kind of an aristocratic background?

Sometimes I wonder how Felipe will develop once his marriage to Letizia will have passed 15, 20 years, being King. He is a Borbon man after all, so it remains to be seen if he will rather live his own life etc as JC does or if the relationship with Letizia will be a long term success, not only as King & Queen teamwork but from a romantic point of view
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  #180  
Old 07-24-2007, 05:12 AM
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The King Juan Carlos received a concrete education, an education that today we neither understand we do not even agree. It was another epoch and another society, in whom the things that nowadays are not accepted, were habitual.

The King, was educated, though he was in the exile as son of King, in a moment in which the social class was mattering much more than now.
On the other hand, the King was educated in a Spain extremely machist, because the women with Franco did not have right to anything. In this epoch the women only were to serve her husbands and could not do anything without the permission of these.

The Prince has born and has been educated in another epoch, where the values have changed. He has been educated and he has been influenced more by his mother than his father. In some occasion is the well-read one the commentary veiled of that though the Prince respects his father, he does not agree very in certain attitudes of this one, more if they affect his mother.

From the moment in which he chose to marry exclusively for love, he chose another way. Since it happens with any person everything can pass in the life, nobody is exempt you are welcome. But it is not possible to compare the King and the prince, because they are two persons who have lived in different epochs and who as it have almost opposite visions opposite to certain aspects of the life.
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