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  #1201  
Old 10-04-2017, 08:37 PM
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He is a constitutional monarch therefore he speaks for the government.

He may, behind the scenes, have tried for an approach which spoke of the need for dialogue.

However, according to the rule of law in Spain (the Constitution) the referendum was illegal. So there was no way he could say it was ok.

And there is more to this than meets the eye of the outsider (like me). I have had overload of referenddi in the UK and I heard all the arguments. But Catalonia (like Scotland) would be on its own - not a member of a stable country, not a member of the EU, no currency.......

Scotland were asked and said no. It is a pity that even asking the question is not allowed by the constitution of Spain.

I feel that it is going to be very painful for the people of Spain.
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  #1202  
Old 10-05-2017, 12:50 AM
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Catalonian president attacks Spanish king for 'ignoring his people' after independence vote in televised speech
Catalonian president attacks Spanish king for 'ignoring his people' after independence vote | The Independent

“With this attitude you have disappointed many Catalans who held you in esteem. The constitution gives you a role as a moderator which you have failed to use.”

Puigdemont criticised the King both for echoing the government’s views and for failing to refer to the hundreds of injured during heavy-handed police actions against a illegal pro-independence referendum in Catalonia over the weekend.
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  #1203  
Old 10-05-2017, 01:59 AM
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Pro-Spain Catalonians make their voices heard

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  #1204  
Old 10-05-2017, 02:40 AM
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'We will not negotiate': Spanish government facing showdown over Catalan independence

Sacking the Catalan government is known in Madrid as the “nuclear option”, given it is considered likely to foment unrest in Barcelona and through the rest of the heavily industrialized, affluent region that accounts for a fifth of Spain’s economy.

The conflict looks like to become Spain’s worst political crisis for decades.
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  #1205  
Old 10-05-2017, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Catalonian president attacks Spanish king for 'ignoring his people' after independence vote in televised speech
Catalonian president attacks Spanish king for 'ignoring his people' after independence vote | The Independent

“With this attitude you have disappointed many Catalans who held you in esteem. The constitution gives you a role as a moderator which you have failed to use.”

Puigdemont criticised the King both for echoing the government’s views and for failing to refer to the hundreds of injured during heavy-handed police actions against a illegal pro-independence referendum in Catalonia over the weekend.


The idea for the monarch to act as moderator in such situations sounds quite plausible and I fail to see why the Castilian king could not act appropriately. The same role was enacted by George V at the July 1914-Buckingham Palace Conference on the Irish Home Rule Bill when all sides attended although the only result was to cool down the heated debate. The outbreak of WW1 then put things on ice. I think Felipe has just alienated millions of people permanently.
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  #1206  
Old 10-05-2017, 04:33 AM
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I think Felipe has just alienated millions of people permanently.
I think that may seem so from abroad, and to consumers of Anglophone the 'media' which ['as one'] has swallowed the Catalan 'line' in promoting 'democracy at all costs'. The reality REMAINS that Referendums are not really 'democratic' if illegal, and the 90% figure in favour of leaving simply isn't credible..ONLY Banana Republics, and autocracies like China get such numbers in 'elections'. These numbers are clearly 'fiddled'.

The King [as a Constitutional Monarch] HAS to 'toe the Govt Line' [at least in Public]. But he was really addressing, and bringing succour to his subjects in ALL Spain, knowing that nothing he says or does will find favour from the secessionists , who detest him, his position and his family ON PRINCIPAL, and their opinion WILL NEVER CHANGE...
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  #1207  
Old 10-05-2017, 04:35 AM
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The Head of State just defended the law and told the truth ... we are used to politicians making speeches to look good, to win votes, to manipulate ... and many people have been grateful for a direct speech.

The independentists or Podemos are never going to speak well of a speech of the King ... always will look for the polemic somewhere. They've been doing it for 40 years every Christmas, so it's not new.

In the video of An Ard Ri, it is part of the key of the speech of the King. Catalans who say "we are no longer a silent majority". Catalans who were afraid to speak because the power there is of the independentists. People whose representatives in Parliament are harassed, silent in plenary. People who see that neither the Catalan government nor the Spanish government defend their rights.

Probably the King's speech supporting the law gave them hope. Yesterday these people went back to the streets, yesterday these people approached the Spanish Police and the Civic Guard to show their support. That these people finally break their silence is a danger to independence (as it was in the Basque Country when people lost their fear and started to take to the streets against ETA).

There is also a majority of Spaniards who have a very simple reasoning. If a citizen breaches law, he is condemned. If a poor man steals to eat, he can end up in jail. If those responsible for the Catalan government are breaking the law, justice must act. If Catalan officials and police do not comply with the law that as public servants they are obliged to comply, they must be tried.

Many people also know that one of the reasons for the rapid flight to independence is that the nationalist party that took power in Catalonia for 40 years it is full of corruption. That's why they really hate the Civil Guard investigating them. In 2018, Andorra will put an end to bank secrecy, and will have to give the Spanish Government and Europe the data of its accounts ... and it is no secret that the corrupt politicians and the Catalan elites have hidden a lot of money there.
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  #1208  
Old 10-05-2017, 09:55 AM
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The King said what he had to say, obviously he does not like the King and the Monarchy will always find a way to criticize the speech of Philip VI.
This situation is complicated and not that the King says will change what is happening. Only the government can try to change this.
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  #1209  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:13 AM
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Latest update:
Spain suspends Catalan parliament session planned for Monday in attempt to block independence

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pendence-plans

We have friends in Valencia and in Cambrils near Barcelona, their opinions are divided, even within the families.
I remember 10 years ago when we were on holiday in Australia and did a day trip in a group. A young man from Spain was there, maybe 20 years old. When he said he was from Girona, somebody said, oh from Spain, that's a long way.
He then made a point of stressing that he was catalan, and not spanish and he felt offended by being called spanish, and he explained why.
I was really shocked back then how deep the rift must be, even in young people. I know a few people who put their region before their country (eg a guy from Corsica) but I had never met somebody that clear about it, almost agressive.
It's a shame it has come that far, people should be able to be both, spanish and catalan without chosing either.
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  #1210  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:31 AM
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Speaking of Girona...

The mayoress Marta Madrenas (who's very involved in the independentist process) has decided to break the ties with the Royal House after the King's speech. She has declared that no member of the royal family (or the government, or the national police or the guardia civil) will be invited to assist to the acts that will take place in Girona. Besides, nobody will represent the town at the acts organized and hosted by the Royal House.

That's quite interesting because of the Princess of Girona Foundation. Tomorrow the Chamber of Commerce of Girona (one of the founding members back in 2009) will decide whether they will drop their patronage.

https://www.economiadigital.es/direc...11791_102.html

El president de la Cambra de Girona proposarà sortir de la Fundació Princesa de Girona
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  #1211  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:49 AM
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Given the likely 'declaration of Independence' next week, Companies in Catalonia are beginning to react, and make plans for their future - Sabadell [no 2 Catalan Bank] is leaving Catalonia for Spain, and the No 1 bank [la Caixa] looks set to do the same, after an alarming loss of customers towards Spanish banks. That is 60% of the money leaving. Industry and Business will surely follow after that...
Without access to the Euro or membership of the EU, it looks likely there will be a 'flight of Capital' [and jobs]..
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  #1212  
Old 10-05-2017, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
Given the likely 'declaration of Independence' next week, Companies in Catalonia are beginning to react, and make plans for their future - Sabadell [no 2 Catalan Bank] is leaving Catalonia for Spain, and the No 1 bank [la Caixa] looks set to do the same, after an alarming loss of customers towards Spanish banks. That is 60% of the money leaving. Industry and Business will surely follow after that...
Without access to the Euro or membership of the EU, it looks likely there will be a 'flight of Capital' [and jobs]..
Several banks and major bussiness are assessing wther they will move out of Catalonia, others have already anounced they will:
https://www.euroweeklynews.com/3.0.1...t-of-barcelona

This is a bit OT, but I found this article by a Catalan politic scientisc to be a really good analysis of the situation:
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/20...thin-a-nation/

And another worth-reading.
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/03...rno_rsoc=TW_CC
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  #1213  
Old 10-05-2017, 11:54 AM
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How will the monarchy become if Catalonia declares independence?
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  #1214  
Old 10-05-2017, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
'We will not negotiate': Spanish government facing showdown over Catalan independence

Sacking the Catalan government is known in Madrid as the “nuclear option”, given it is considered likely to foment unrest in Barcelona and through the rest of the heavily industrialized, affluent region that accounts for a fifth of Spain’s economy.

The conflict looks like to become Spain’s worst political crisis for decades.
Spain is definitely experienced in a prolonged civil war. I wonder who outside players might be. It is unusual that Madrid has been doing nothing to address the Catalan issues for about 11 years.
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  #1215  
Old 10-05-2017, 03:13 PM
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Former British PM Tony Blair tipped to become mediator between Catalonia & Madrid.

https://www.rt.com/uk/405802-tony-bl...talonia-spain/
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  #1216  
Old 10-05-2017, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Tony Blair tipped to become mediator between Catalonia & Madrid.
Because a War Criminal [allegedly] is EXACTLY what an already febrile situation needs...?
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  #1217  
Old 10-05-2017, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Former British PM Tony Blair tipped to become mediator between Catalonia & Madrid.

https://www.rt.com/uk/405802-tony-bl...talonia-spain/
In Spain there is no news about it.

As long as the independentists do not renounce to the unilateral declaration of independence and return to legality, the Spanish government will not debate anything.

Actually the Spanish government can not negotiate much. Catalonia already has a high level of independence, they can promise more money, as always ( but that will not please the rest of Spain).

The government can not allow a binding referendum on independence without changing the constitution, and for that they need 2/3 of the parliament and that most Spanish vote in referendum.

According to the September survey of the Center for Sociological Research, only 9.6% of Spaniards would favor the state allowing a declaration of independence. So many millions of Spaniards would have to change their minds.
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  #1218  
Old 10-05-2017, 03:41 PM
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The link is a website of Russia Today, mouthpiece of the Kremlin and it quotes the Daily Express, a British tabloid notorious for its lies & aligned with the party of Nigel Farage. Not the most reliable sources I would think.
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  #1219  
Old 10-05-2017, 04:02 PM
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Tony Blair. Ugh. Maybe in his dreams.
But hopefully something happens and there is no further escalation on Monday.
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  #1220  
Old 10-05-2017, 04:26 PM
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I fully expect an Iberian equivalent to 'the Tennis Court Oath' [at the beginning of the French Revolution] to happen this Monday...
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