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  #981  
Old 09-27-2015, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Who on himself, is a 100% royalborn gentleman too...



You seem to see this as 'commoner' vs 'elite' but that is not what I intended. The question was why Letizia and Mette-Marit got so much negativity in comparison with "colleagues". One explanation is that someone from the own social group leaves its ranks and now suddenly is "higher". Then the mechanism, duh... who do you think you are??? starts working. That Máxima and Mary escaped this phenomenon is because they are not from the own social group. Both of them come from the total other side of the world, the southern hemisphere, a total different culture, did not even speak the language when they entered the scène. They were never "one of them" and remained "exotic" so to say.
And what is the explanation for the negative press of 100 percent royals?

It seems many people are twisting and turning the class system to suit their particular biases.

Can't have it both ways.
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  #982  
Old 09-27-2015, 04:40 AM
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You can single out any royal and point to negativity. Mary of Denmark has entire websites and blogs dedicated to her demise and yet it has no impact. The Duchess of Cambridge is more popular than either the Princes of Wales or the Duchess of Cornwall no matter the comments in the Daily Mail.

It seems the blood royals of Spain have cause the monarchy there more headaches than Letizia ever has.
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  #983  
Old 09-27-2015, 05:01 AM
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How can you ever see a news anchor whom came in your living room, presenting the news as "Her Majesty The Queen of Spain"? It is really that phenomenon. It is too close. I think Doña Letizia makes perfect contact with the people but it is the uneasy feeling of heyyy... who am I waving to? Are we all playing some theatre or so? She is not what she pretends she is. Mathilde and Stéphanie do not have this phenomenon. Someone who is raised at the Château d'Anvaing or the Château de Losange definitely is not like "our social group". In Anvaing or in Villers-La-Bonne-Eau the two families were already met with respect and recognition before any Philippe or any Guillaume was in sight.
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  #984  
Old 09-27-2015, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
You can single out any royal and point to negativity. Mary of Denmark has entire websites and blogs dedicated to her demise and yet it has no impact. The Duchess of Cambridge is more popular than either the Princes of Wales or the Duchess of Cornwall no matter the comments in the Daily Mail.

It seems the blood royals of Spain have cause the monarchy there more headaches than Letizia ever has.
Yes Rudolph, open up the gates, let the flood of commoners come in, no any requirement, no standards, We Are All Equal (But Some Are More Equal Than We), hurrah! And see how fast the monarchies tumble down. Du moment that there is no any difference anymore between "us" and "them", then the whole raison d'être of a monarchy has gone. It is as simple as that.
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  #985  
Old 09-27-2015, 05:38 AM
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The newspaper El País summed up a few paradoxes regarding today's elections in Catalonia.

1. A referendum in seats, not in votes?
Separatists see these elections as a starting point for independence. But in a referendum it is about the number of votes pro and contra. Every vote has the same weight. In these elections this is not like that: in the electoral district Barcelona, the most densely populated but at the same time the less pro-independent district, one vote has only half of the value of a vote in the electoral district Girona. For the separatists a majority in seats is enough, even if there is no majority in votes. That could possibly mean that the new Catalan Parliament declares independence while the majority of the Catalans have not voted for it... At the end of the process there will be a real referendum. But then it is not about the question pro or contra independence. The question will be: pro or contra the new Catalan Constitution.

2. Tearing apart from Spain requires less votes than the appointment of a new Ombudsman
The half plus one of all seats is enough to declare independence, so claim the separatists. The most important decision imagineable so requires less votes than a reform of the Statute of Autonomy (2/3rd of the votes), a reform of the electoral system (2/3rd of the votes) or even the appointment of a new Ombudsman (3/5th of the votes).

3. Who has the right to make the decision?
Do not have all Spaniards the right to decide about the future of their country? If one claims that it is only a matter of the Catalans themselves, what to do when in Barcelona and Tarragona the separatists will most likely not win a majority? Have the people of Barcelona a say and so remain part of the Kingdom of Spain? When the argument is: "Catalonia is an unity and the Catalonian Parliament decides" what then about the similar argument: "Spain is an unity and the Spanish Parliament decides"?

4. Breaking away from Spain but at the same time remain in Spain
The separatists announced they will break away from Spain. At the same time they will run for the Spanish Parliament during the coming general elections (December). This means the separatists wants -paradoxically enough- to be represented in the very Parliament of the very Kingdom of Spain they want to break with.
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  #986  
Old 09-27-2015, 06:28 AM
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Spain is Spain and the "wife of" is always criticized... It is more related to how the Spanish society is, that with the person occupying the position. Recent history is an example.

I think the most popular queen of Spain was Maria de las Mercedes, wife of Alfonso XII, and because she died tragically at age 18.

The second wife, Maria Cristina, was poorly received, despite exercising her role very well after the death of her husband, the critics were not totally forgotten.

Also Victoria Eugenia or Sofia were members of royalty, but they were foreign, had another religion and were seen as cold and distant women who do not fit into Spanish society and customs.

Letizia is criticized with other arguments, but is the same. In her case aggravated by the development of gossip press, of which she has become a priority objective, and internet.

Queen Sofia has taken 40 years to be popular in this country during that time she was always identified as a cold woman, only the birth of her grandchildren and her cooperation work in recent years have changed that.

Even after the scandal of Juan Carlos and Noos, sectors faithful to her husband, have accused her for not knowing how to educate her children, allow their marriages or not to keep her family together.

Who does not belong to the royal family by birth is always in a more complex position, the external element that is easier to blame the problems.
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  #987  
Old 09-27-2015, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The newspaper El País summed up a few paradoxes regarding today's elections in Catalonia.

1. A referendum in seats, not in votes?
Separatists see these elections as a starting point for independence. But in a referendum it is about the number of votes pro and contra. Every vote has the same weight. In these elections this is not like that: in the electoral district Barcelona, the most densely populated but at the same time the less pro-independent district, one vote has only half of the value of a vote in the electoral district Girona. For the separatists a majority in seats is enough, even if there is no majority in votes. That could possibly mean that the new Catalan Parliament declares independence while the majority of the Catalans have not voted for it... At the end of the process there will be a real referendum. But then it is not about the question pro or contra independence. The question will be: pro or contra the new Catalan Constitution.

2. Tearing apart from Spain requires less votes than the appointment of a new Ombudsman
The half plus one of all seats is enough to declare independence, so claim the separatists. The most important decision imagineable so requires less votes than a reform of the Statute of Autonomy (2/3rd of the votes), a reform of the electoral system (2/3rd of the votes) or even the appointment of a new Ombudsman (3/5th of the votes).

3. Who has the right to make the decision?
Do not have all Spaniards the right to decide about the future of their country? If one claims that it is only a matter of the Catalans themselves, what to do when in Barcelona and Tarragona the separatists will most likely not win a majority? Have the people of Barcelona a say and so remain part of the Kingdom of Spain? When the argument is: "Catalonia is an unity and the Catalonian Parliament decides" what then about the similar argument: "Spain is an unity and the Spanish Parliament decides"?

4. Breaking away from Spain but at the same time remain in Spain
The separatists announced they will break away from Spain. At the same time they will run for the Spanish Parliament during the coming general elections (December). This means the separatists wants -paradoxically enough- to be represented in the very Parliament of the very Kingdom of Spain they want to break with.
I think in the end this will be less about independence and more about the concessions and special agreements that Catalonia will get out of Madrid. I doubt many Catalans have a problem with feeling catalan while living in Spain, its all about money and political power.
It's Felipe's job to recite like a mantra that the spanish unity is not negotiable but that's it. That is what Rajoy asks of him, he even sent him to the US to get this sentence out of Obama.
The rest is now a tug of war about money, power, influence.
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  #988  
Old 09-27-2015, 07:03 AM
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I think its far too early and also unfair to start accessing Letizia's role as queen consort as she has only been in that role a little over a year!
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  #989  
Old 09-27-2015, 07:16 AM
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^^^^^^^^
i agree, lot's of opinions about the Spanish RF will be remnants from a longer period than just K.Felipe's reign.
And like was mentioned in another thread, before she became queen, Q.Letizia (and her husband) were kept on a tight leash and didn't have much chance of gaining experience like some of their fellow-ne-monarchs had..
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  #990  
Old 09-27-2015, 08:57 AM
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^^^^^^^^
i agree, lot's of opinions about the Spanish RF will be remnants from a longer period than just K.Felipe's reign.
And like was mentioned in another thread, before she became queen, Q.Letizia (and her husband) were kept on a tight leash and didn't have much chance of gaining experience like some of their fellow-ne-monarchs had..
I beg to differ. Don Felipe had a high profile and an own agenda as The Prince of Asturias. He was not at all kept on a tight leash. I have the idea that from all Heirs of his generation, he was the most independent.
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  #991  
Old 09-27-2015, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I beg to differ. Don Felipe had a high profile and an own agenda as The Prince of Asturias. He was not at all kept on a tight leash. I have the idea that from all Heirs of his generation, he was the most independent.
I don't know if Letizia was kept on a tight leash when she was Princess of Asturias. However, I'm pretty sure it must be difficult to be under the shadow of a dominating figure like Queen Sofia.
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  #992  
Old 09-27-2015, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I beg to differ. Don Felipe had a high profile and an own agenda as The Prince of Asturias. He was not at all kept on a tight leash. I have the idea that from all Heirs of his generation, he was the most independent.
Well, be that as it may, if the Spanish abolish the monarchy tomorrow, next week or next month, it's not going to be because they had a commoner for their queen for a year.
And if Q.Letizia is queen for 40 years and *then* the monarchy is abolished, it will more likely have to do with other things than the fact that Q.Letizia is not royal-born...
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  #993  
Old 09-27-2015, 10:09 AM
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Felipe, as Prince, was not independent ... he did not have his own independent team with his own financial allowance ... everything was controlled by the team of King Juan Carlos. As king, Felipe has recovered people who had his confidence as a prince, and Juan Carlos decided to fire.

Another thing is that between the princes of his generation, he had a higher political profile... but the team of Juan Carlos and the Government marked the guidelines.

King Juan Carlos took several years to reinforce the staffed of Felipe, for Letizia to have an independent activity.

In addition, Queen Sofia and the infantas had their own teams that took decades working in Zarzuela... they did not accept well the arrival of Letizia. The number of events was always very measured so that Letizia had no more than Queen Sofia.
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  #994  
Old 09-28-2015, 03:52 PM
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but one good thing was whatever image n charisma felipe got, he earned it entirely on his own, unlike the dutch and danish heirs who, for most of the time, merely tagged along their exotic wives...
haakon is another one who came closer..sadly here his wife only manages to lower even his image..
charles had to do it 3-fold..get to zero level from the deep negative, then rise totally on his own, then get his second wife there as well..
the last two are out of topic, but in this context they just come to mind.
Finally what i wanna say is felipe can be definitely graded "very good" heir..
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  #995  
Old 09-29-2015, 01:59 AM
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Anti-monarchy protesters have taken to the streets of the Spanish capital, Madrid, amid growing calls for a referendum to abolish the system. The rally comes as pro-independence parties in the Spanish region of Catalonia claimed victory in regional parliamentary elections.

PressTV-Spaniards hold anti-monarchy protest
Catalonia elections set separatists on collision course - CNN.com
Huge anti-monarchy demo held in Spain
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  #996  
Old 09-29-2015, 03:16 AM
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So why aren't the pro-monarchists counter demonstrating against these people? This makes all the rosy, glowing news articles about Felipe's 70% approval rating and how he has restored faith in the institution in one year seem like a mockery. What is really going on in Spain?

My personal opinion is that King Felipe has made a valiant effort but the handwriting is on the wall. Maybe it's a good thing after all that he and Letizia do not seem to be preparing their Heir for her future role.
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  #997  
Old 09-29-2015, 03:25 AM
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It is not so easy to forget the scandals of the royal family. Do not forget the famous trip of Juan Carlos and a trial that even the wait to be done. Felipe is king one year and already has improved considerably the image of the monarchy. But it has not in my opinion significant support from unprepared for the role of Queen consort.
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  #998  
Old 09-29-2015, 04:22 AM
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The pro-independency blocks won a mojority of the seats but got under 50% votes what means they would have failed in a referendum (which it wasn't).

Separatists Win Majority of Seats in Catalan Vote, but Mandate Is Uncertain - WSJ

IMO the point is not really independence but to get mayor concessions out of Madrid for the region.

I will get really interesting with the general elections in December, when Rajoy faces to be voted out of presidency, a far-leftist goverment could mean more problems for the monarchy as well:

Many already expect the elections to result in a significant overhaul of Spanish politics, as Citizens and another emerging force, the far-left Podemos party, are preparing to challenge the longstanding two-party dominance of Mr. Rajoy’s Popular Party and the main opposition Socialists.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/wo...tion.html?_r=0
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  #999  
Old 09-29-2015, 04:23 AM
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Why should they protest in favor of the monarchy? The monarchy is under no threat, it is only a very vocal minority of people who want to get rid of the king. As I said before: remember the enormous crowds on the streets when Felipe was sworn in? Much more than this bunch of professional protesters.

I would say that there are more pressing matters to protest about in Spain at the moment. Though I suppose for demagogic seperatists, the king is a representative of ties with Madrid. So populistic parties want to get rid of that unifying element.
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  #1000  
Old 09-29-2015, 07:01 AM
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Anti-monarchy protesters have taken to the streets of the Spanish capital, Madrid, amid growing calls for a referendum to abolish the system. The rally comes as pro-independence parties in the Spanish region of Catalonia claimed victory in regional parliamentary elections.

PressTV-Spaniards hold anti-monarchy protest
Catalonia elections set separatists on collision course - CNN.com
Huge anti-monarchy demo held in Spain
The separatist list Junts per El Sí actually won only 40 % of the popular vote in Catalonia and failed to gain a majority in the Catalan parliament. Together with CUP, a smaller independentist party, they would have a majority of seats, but not a majority of the popular vote. CUP, however, has already said it wil not support the Catalan government's plan to initiate a constitutional process in preparation for a unilateral secession from Spain as the party believes the election results do not give them a popular mandate to do that.

In other words, the Catalan elections ended up being a blow to the independentist cause. In the long run though, I still see a reform of the Spanish constitution that will move the country closer to a federal model like in Belgium for example, The monarchy on the other hand is reasonably secure as none of the parties in the position to form the next national government is calling for a republic.
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