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  #941  
Old 08-06-2015, 09:22 AM
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The difference to Britain is that when the British goverment allowed the vote of independence, the polls showed that only around 20% of Scots were in favour of independence. They thought, lets show how democratic we are, without the risk of losing Scotland.

But when the vote came, it was 45% YES and 55% NO and beforehand Cameron had to travel to Scotland like a beggar luring them to stay with lots of concessions.

So it is clear that Rajoy will not allow the referendum in the first place, because it is already past the point of a clear NO vote.
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  #942  
Old 08-06-2015, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post

In the meantime the immensely popular former FC Barcelona footballer and trainer, now trainer of Bayern München, Pep Guardiola, has publicly declared to back Catalonian independence and the establishment of a republic.
Yes, he is very outspoken about it and has listed himself as a candidate for a possible parliament. I don't think Bayern Munich bosses are happy about it since they want him to fully concentrate on football.
Whenever people refer to him as 'spanish' - what happened very often in Germany in the beginning - he will interrupt the journalist and insist on the correction, that he is from Catalonia, not from Spain.
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  #943  
Old 08-06-2015, 12:08 PM
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For so far the superficial polls about the popularity of the Spanish royal family. Personal approval of persons can not be linked with approval for the institution per sé. It is very well possible that people think Don Felipe is a nice man but are still in favour of a republican form of state. I sometimes miss that insight when in this forum people connect the melting hearts of Spaniards for cute little Doña Leonor with support for the monarchy.
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  #944  
Old 08-06-2015, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
For so far the superficial polls about the popularity of the Spanish royal family. Personal approval of persons can not be linked with approval for the institution per sé. It is very well possible that people think Don Felipe is a nice man but are still in favour of a republican form of state. I sometimes miss that insight when in this forum people connect the melting hearts of Spaniards for cute little Doña Leonor with support for the monarchy.
According to the El Mundo poll that was posted in this forum, King Felipe's personal approval rating was 74.7 % whereas approval for the monarchy as a political form of state was 61.5 %. In other words, although D. Felipe is personally more popular than the monarchy as an institution, support for the institution is still very strong among Spaniards and well above the 50 % mark.
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  #945  
Old 08-06-2015, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
The difference to Britain is that when the British goverment allowed the vote of independence, the polls showed that only around 20% of Scotts were in favour of independence. They thought, lets show how democratic we are, without the risk of losing Scotland.

But when the vote came, it was 45% YES and 55% NO and beforehand Cameron had to travel to Scotland like a beggar luring them to stay with lots of concessions.

So it is clear that Rajoy will not allow the referendum in the first place, because it is already past the point of a clear NO vote.
In the most recent BOP poll in Catalonia, 50 % were against independence, 42.9 % were in favor, 5.8 % did not know, and 1.3 % did not reply. A 'Yes' victory in a possible referendum is far from a foregone conclusion then.

In any case, the question here is not how the Spanish government should handle Catalan separatism, but rather what the Crown's position should be. As I said, in my personal opinion, D. Felipe should follow Queen Elizabeth's example and stay away from this issue as much as possible. If the King is seen as taking sides, the political neutrality of the monarchy will be compromised. That is a problem for the politicians to sort out among themselves.
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  #946  
Old 08-06-2015, 01:44 PM
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The attitude of the Heads of State is very different, while QEII officially stayed neutral, Felipe (and before him JC) have always stressed the importance of unification of Spain, it was one of the main topics in his inauguration speech.
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  #947  
Old 08-06-2015, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
In the most recent BOP poll in Catalonia, 50 % were against independence, 42.9 % were in favor, 5.8 % did not know, and 1.3 % did not reply. A 'Yes' victory in a possible referendum is far from a foregone conclusion then.

In any case, the question here is not how the Spanish government should handle Catalan separatism, but rather what the Crown's position should be. As I said, in my personal opinion, D. Felipe should follow Queen Elizabeth's example and stay away from this issue as much as possible. If the King is seen as taking sides, the political neutrality of the monarchy will be compromised. That is a problem for the politicians to sort out among themselves.
The difference with Scotland is that it is one of the crowns in the Union which wanted to separate but keep the Queen as head of state.

In Spain, Catalonia, part of the one and the only State, represented by the Crown, wants to break away and head for a republic.

That is a total different situation for Don Felipe than what was faced by Queen Elizabeth II.
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  #948  
Old 08-06-2015, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The difference with Scotland is that it is one of the crowns in the Union which wanted to separate but keep the Queen as head of state.

In Spain, Catalonia, part of the one and the only State, represented by the Crown, wants to break away and head for a republic.

That is a total different situation for Don Felipe than what was faced by Queen Elizabeth II.
When the Australian government called a referendum to abolish the monarchy , QEII didn't campaign against the republic. I'm pretty sure that, if the Scottish nationalists had been in favor of abolishing the monarchy in an independent Scotland, she would still have stayed neutral in the referendum.

I can understand King Juan Carlos taking a more active role in state affairs in the 1970s and early 1980s. I don't see the need though for King Felipe do the same in present circumstances.
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  #949  
Old 09-17-2015, 03:53 AM
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...f65_story.html
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  #950  
Old 09-26-2015, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Apart from some inaccuracies the general tone of the article is relatively correct indeed. But when I was in Spain last year and this year (twice), all three times Doña Letizia was the one being ridiculized, the aim of mockeries, laughter and satire. Don Felipe however seems to have a wide approval amongst the people I met. So Andrew Morton's (why is that nitwit used as an expert by the Washington Post?) claim that the monarchy rests on the frail shoulders of Letizia Ortiz..... mwoah... come on.
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  #951  
Old 09-26-2015, 05:12 AM
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Its always easier for the born royal. Spanish people grew up with Felipe, they can easily relate to him, and he personally hasn't put much of a foot wrong. He's is a good representative for the country, whether you like the institution or not.
Problem is that finding Felipe likable doesn't make people all of a sudden like the institution, but that was the same with his father. Many people called themselves Juancarlists and not monarchists, and only time will tell if there will be enough Felipistas in the end.
Even though the last years of his reign went bad, Juan Carlos needs to be cut some slack for what he did, Felipe just managed one difficult year, Juan Carlos had almost 4 decades of a difficult time, very often with hard personal sacrifices and his/his family's life in danger.
Letizia is the consort and unimportant in the big picture. During the past ten years it became clear that she doesn't relate to people in a way that SHE could make like them like the instituion all of a sudden or give it a big boost (a la Maxima).
Letizia is a cash cow for the tabloids and they will write these stories at least as long as she keeps her looks, at some point her daughters will take over in terms of tabloids because they will be young and beautiful, especially Leonor, because she will be in Felipe's position.
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  #952  
Old 09-26-2015, 05:28 AM
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I agree with your assessment. And it is indeed important for all our esteemed fellow-contributors at the Royal Forums to realize that personal popularity is not the same as being in favour of the monarchy.

It is very well possible that most Catalans actually do like Don Felipe but simply favour a republic. So polls with "popularity" of Doña Letizia, the King, etc. do not really give an indication about the fundaments of the monarchy.

That counts for all monarchies anyway. I can see the Dutch or the Swedes going to a republic, despite Máxima's or Victoria's popularity. Popularity comes in on a snail but leaves on horseback.
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  #953  
Old 09-26-2015, 05:34 AM
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Agree about Letizia. However I wonder why in relation to the other Queens Consorts Letizia had an advantage the job. As a journalist came more directly into contact with the people and what should I imagine was a plus in its relationship with the people. But apparently it was not enough.
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  #954  
Old 09-26-2015, 07:44 AM
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I do not know what it is about Letizia, but she is the yardstick by which a lot of people will measure and judge the monarchy. Let's be honest, Infanta Christina's scandal has not done the monarchy any good and it seems that Queen Letizia has not managed to establish any real rapport with the people.

The conundrum that is Letizia is well illustrated by two major events, her appearance at the wedding of CP Frederik to Mary Donaldson and just over a week later, her own wedding:

At the Danish wedding:

http://redhotbrides.com/blog/media/b...edOnce/zc5.JPG
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...451b1731b2.jpg
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/836...7a1CK7Kw%3d%3d

At her own wedding:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GhqyFzHOJZ...0/Letizia2.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...RkgXXwfjloMBkA
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/103...%2FJ%2FA%3D%3D

At the Danish wedding we saw a confident, elegant, even flamboyant lady in red. She totally owned that look and Felipe looked so proud strutting along beside her. Yet, in little more than a week we saw this almost shrinking violet hanging on to Felipe. Her total demeanor had changed and here was this timid wee thing smiling shyly at everyone and seemingly overwhelmed by everything. She'd even managed to lose her bust!

Which was the real Letizia? It just didn't make sense. It still doesn't. And, while I hold her appearance in that ravishing red gown to be one of her finest moments, she doesn't even look like that anymore. If I am confused how much more so are the people of Spain?

She is a conundrum.
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  #955  
Old 09-26-2015, 07:56 AM
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In my humble opinion the people of Spain have difficulties seeing Doña Letizia as the Queen indeed because they have known her for years and years, coming evening after evening in their living rooms, presenting the news.

Suddenly that high-profiled newsreader is Her Majesty The Queen... It is the same as suddenly saying "Your Royal Highness" to Fiona Bruce or Sophie Raworth (presenters of BBC News). You can be close to the people. You can also be too close to the people, even coming in their living rooms, every evening again...
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  #956  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:30 AM
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I don't think so. I've read articles and interviews and listened to opinions: most of the people think that Letizia is much more appreciated now a sa queen than when shewas the Princess of Asturias. It has a lot to do with the fact than in her role as a princess she could spread her wings.
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  #957  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:37 AM
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I don't think so. I've read articles and interviews and listened to opinions: most of the people think that Letizia is much more appreciated now a sa queen than when shewas the Princess of Asturias. It has a lot to do with the fact than in her role as a princess she could spread her wings.
What do you mean with "she could spread her wings"? If there is any consort held very short and controlled by the Court, then it is Doña Letizia. Sometimes she looks like a rabbit caught in the headlights, terrified to make a mistake.
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  #958  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:54 AM
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What do you mean with "she could spread her wings"? If there is any consort held very short and controlled by the Court, then it is Doña Letizia. Sometimes she looks like a rabbit caught in the headlights, terrified to make a mistake.
That's the point. When she still was a princess she was very much more controlled by the court. I guess that after many years spent by being observed and held short she still has the habit of looking afraid of making mistakes. But one can see that now she looks like a heavy weight has been taken off her shoulders.
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  #959  
Old 09-26-2015, 10:38 AM
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Future of the Spanish Monarchy

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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I agree with your assessment. And it is indeed important for all our esteemed fellow-contributors at the Royal Forums to realize that personal popularity is not the same as being in favour of the monarchy.

It is very well possible that most Catalans actually do like Don Felipe but simply favour a republic. So polls with "popularity" of Doña Letizia, the King, etc. do not really give an indication about the fundaments of the monarchy.

That counts for all monarchies anyway. I can see the Dutch or the Swedes going to a republic, despite Máxima's or Victoria's popularity. Popularity comes in on a snail but leaves on horseback.

I agree. In Sweden Victoria is tremendously popular and very well respected even by proclaimed republicans. They'd even welcome her as president if she ran for office. It's the monarchy they're against not the Crown princess herself.


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  #960  
Old 09-26-2015, 10:47 AM
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Why single out Letizia as "the COMMONER queen?" With three exceptions(Elizabeth II, Margrethe, maybe Mathilde) they are all commoner queens now!
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