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  #381  
Old 10-10-2007, 01:54 PM
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I talk from a close experience, three of my cousins and a friend have been thrown to jail just for being in republican manifestations, pacific ones in Madrid, Valencia and Barcelona and they were just took by the police, no questions asked and such

If we had the right to express ourselves without fear, then it would be much better even for the monarchy itself
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  #382  
Old 10-10-2007, 03:31 PM
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Crisiñaki, anybody is arrested to pronounce in favor of the Republic, if does it in an ordered and civic way, of that form can be gone out and be defended any idea. There are politicians who defend it in the Parliament.
What it is not acceptable, and often it is crime, is when those ideas are defend of scandalous form and with violence. And unfortunately often there are manifestations that finish thus,indeed because if in those manifestations it does not pass something scandalous, they are not the news. It can have some case, but I doubt that one arrest to somebody in a pacific and organized manifestation.

You can be showed to favor or against you want it while you do not fail to fulfill laws. The past weekend in the Basque Country were manifestations of thousands of people in favor of independence, while they do not defend the terrorism nor they create public scandal, is no problem.


What it is not possible to be done is to defend your ideas failing to fulfill the law. I have looked for curiosity the history of the boy that you comment. A person can pronounce itself with a republican flag, but to put that flag in a public building is against the Spanish laws, because an unconstitutional flag cannot wave in a public building.

A country in which million people go out to condemn the terrorism or to protest against a war, is not indeed a country that is scared to say the things in the street. What it happens, it is that much people have understood and understands, that over a personal idea it is the good of all. And they can be republicans, but many republicans value the role that the Monarchy has played and plays in this country.
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  #383  
Old 10-10-2007, 03:53 PM
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What I believe is stupid is people getting jail for cartoons or for burning a picture (even if I don't agree or endorse these acts)

In USA, you can see pics, masks of Bush in every manifestation getting burned, burning flags and stuff like that and what happens: nothing, there's not such a big deal out of it

And let's not even talk about the cartoons, who are far worse than anything has done in Spain

About Jaume: why does it have to be against the law to change a flag? what's the point of forbidding that? what's the point of make a cartoonist go to jail for depicting someone? I know is the law, but that law is pointless, the judges should be dedicating to more important things than this

Seems like freedom of speech and objection of conscience is not that "free" in Spain
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  #384  
Old 10-10-2007, 04:30 PM
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Crisiñaki, are two different debates.

A thing, is that certain laws, do not please or that sometimes the public prosecutors or the judges exceed. In many countries laws exist that defend the Chief of the Head of the State or national symbols. Here you have information:
Tiempo

In the United States you can burn to Bush or the flag, but also they can condemn you to death. There is nor system no perfect justice. But that the laws please more or less it does not mean that the people can fail to fulfill them.

Independently of which they commit or not a crime against the King or the State, that burns any thing in the street would have to be arrest by acts of public disorder, because it is not normal that it is allowed to be burning things in the street.

I return to explain you the subject of the boy and the republican flag. The republican flag is a NON CONSTITUTIONAL flag, and therefore it is prohibited by law that that flag is placed in a PUBLIC building (that is what this boy did), just like it would be a crime to place a pro-Franco flag.
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  #385  
Old 10-10-2007, 05:38 PM
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No justice system is perfect, that's for sure, but I can assure you, the spanish judges have more important issues than prosecute some people who burn the Kings pics; if you talk about USA vs Spain, you have to remember the First Amendment, which grants the freedom of speech, freedom of press, and the right of petition, which is not completely complied in Spain (as should be in every democratic civilized country, monarchy or not)

Of course I know it isn't a non-constitutional flag, my point is that, it shouldn't be penalized, the boy should pay money or do community service, but not go to jail!

I don't agree with the inviolable status of the King nor do I agree with the fact that the Kings and Princes are so above everybody else that you're prosecuted just because you burn pics or cartoon a person; of course there should be a modicum of respect towards the institution, but it should be the same level of respect the Presidency of the Government has

I believe the judges and prosecutors are overzealous of the defending of the Crown and at the end of the day, it just helps to degrade the imagen of the Crown as a whole
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  #386  
Old 10-10-2007, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by crisiñaki View Post
I talk from a close experience, three of my cousins and a friend have been thrown to jail just for being in republican manifestations, pacific ones in Madrid, Valencia and Barcelona and they were just took by the police, no questions asked and such

If we had the right to express ourselves without fear, then it would be much better even for the monarchy itself
This becomes a human rights issue - I am surprised that this is tolerated in an EU country. How so?
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  #387  
Old 10-10-2007, 06:37 PM
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Crisiñaki, to exert the freedom of expression, is necessary to begin to respect the freedom. The exercise of you freedom of expression, can´t attack the fundamental rights of other people. Anybody cannot demand that the freedom of expression is respected when does not respect the fundamental rights of others. It is quite terrible like certain groups, in order to appear as “victims” appeal to their freedom of expression, when they do not respect to anybody. Because such which they demand to express itself with freedom, they do not leave others are expressed with the same freedom.

They always are very pacific, and they never do nothing … but always finishes being problems. And most terrible, it is than usually they take advantage of that problems to conduct more radical battles later.
The police also will commit errors, but it is not a secret that to many of these groups they like to face the police thus so that these respond and to complain.

The subject of “El jueves” is a unique subject, in that justice took an excessive measurement. Justice also commits errors, by excess or defect.
There are many laws that can seem more or less unjust, but are the governments the ones in charge to change them.

In Spain like in any other democratic country, each one must right to express its ideas, whenever it does it within the limits of the democracy and the law. Some commentaries that Crisiñaki has made here seem to me an authentic excess that reflects little the reality of Spain.

A Spain in which in the last week there have been manifestations in the street: of Basque independents, Catalan republican independents, extreme right-wingers, in defense of the democratic institutions, of sentence to the terrorism …
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  #388  
Old 10-11-2007, 07:07 PM
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Well, even the Dutch news has picked up on the discussion, I am watching the news of the public channel now and they are saying that the protests are becoming more fierce, esp. by youngsters and in catalunia. Tomorrow they expect even more fierce protests.
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  #389  
Old 10-12-2007, 01:56 AM
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I read this afternoon on yahoo Spain (es.yahoo.com) that 69% of spaniards support the monarchy while 22% want the republic.
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  #390  
Old 10-12-2007, 06:03 AM
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sorry if this has been posted already.

Free pass fades for Spanish royal family
Protests spark debate on role of the monarchy

By Victoria Burnett, International Herald Tribune | October 11, 2007

MADRID - For more than three decades, King Juan Carlos of Spain has enjoyed the unquestioning loyalty of his subjects and the discreet respect of the media. But the era of deference during which the royal family's jet-set lifestyle and personal affairs were free of public scrutiny could be drawing to a close - full article
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  #391  
Old 10-12-2007, 11:18 PM
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This is getting bigger and bigger:

Reporters sans frontières - Spain
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  #392  
Old 10-13-2007, 05:14 AM
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Bigger? I do not believe it, this it is the opinion of an organization, about a law that exists not only in Spain but also in other countries. The press can criticize a judicial action for considering it excessive, but not for it they have right to claim that a country changes its laws. It is to exceed the limits and enough....

Really the attitude of the press never stops surprising, in all that something happens that affects them they have the power to do a " great topic ", but they are not capable of criticizing their own attitudes. In Spain there is a sector of the press that every day uses the lie, the calumny and the harassment, as method of work, and nevertheless many of their companions close the mouth before these attitudes of ...¨liberty of expression ¨? ... I do not believe it.

Actually I have the impression from which the press has been saved often. If I think about the information, which on the Royal Family, and specially the Princess and her environment, the press has spread in the last years, I can have a good quantity of news capable of being denounced by lies, calumnies, harassment, breach of laws of protection to the infancy, damage to the honor and to the intimacy...

They have damaged very much and have earned a lot of money without nobody was taking them before a judge, so better the things were kept silent and analyzing inside the limits of isolated events, which it is what they are.
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  #393  
Old 10-13-2007, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisiñaki View Post
This is getting bigger and bigger:

Reporters sans frontières - Spain
Nonsense!!Absolute nonsense,you guys do have an uncanny sense for sensation.Some Catalans burning pictures.So what?Nothing against Catalans tho,I've lived happily among them for quite some time,but some take their sense/nonsense on "nationalism" too far indeed,they only ridicule themselves and,I say it again,have soo totally forgotten where they've come from and who is at the very center of the freedom they now enjoy and hold,and mis-use/abuse.
And forget it,I will not take this back.Nunca.The Catalans behave more and more like a spoilt rotten selfish lot,nothing more.Que"ll rísée,este broma de Espana.
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  #394  
Old 10-13-2007, 05:38 AM
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Lucien, they are only groups of radical, and obtain the response of those who are radical as them. And this way many Spanish see and reject this situation and enclosedly many Catalans.

Yesterday, there were speaking normal citizens, families that were present at the parade of the National Day, and saw this as a great absurdity.

Later, yesterday there was demonstrated that this polemic only serves in order that they acquire protagonism minorities that they represent to the most extreme ideologies. In the Basque Country yesterday there were problems between independence Basques and ultraright-wingers. And in Valencia there was a manifestation, with almost 1000 persons of ultraright, where there were burned photos of the President of the Basque Country and of the independence Catalan leader.

The above mentioned thing, there has met the worst of every house and they have created their own mess.
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  #395  
Old 10-13-2007, 05:44 AM
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The situation is sirious enough to be reported on Euronews though. Yesterady, when coering th Independance Day for Spain, they were analizying the Monarchy and its future. It didn't look too good.

I doubt there is immediate danger to the Monarchy, and I doubt that things will change when Felipe succeeds his father.
But I do wonder whether the Spanish Monarchy has future in long-term prospective. Reiging over a country, large parts of which are craving for independance and don't recognize even the flag, is not going to be an easy job.

Of course, not being Spanish and not having lived in the country, I base my opinion on media reports and posts of the members here.
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  #396  
Old 10-13-2007, 06:26 AM
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There are things that are not new, there are things that go this way 30 years and even many more.

At this moment, great part of this noise they have its origin and purpose in political questions, because in a few months there are elections. As consequence of 11M and the elections that took place a few days later, a certain break took was produced between both principal political groups of the country, which always they had supported a certain consensus in principal questions.

This circumstance produced that the minority groups, many nationalists and independence, were acquiring more power. The electoral Spanish system favors to these minority groups, and for them often they turn into obliged associates in order that the big groups could govern. In case of the current government of Zapatero, this happened with a group independence and Catalan republican who is ERC. With more power, and certain control on the government, they have done what they have wanted. They have taken advantage of this gap that exists estre both big groups that represent the majority of the Spanish, to extract benefits. These groups look for the clash and the confrontation, because of it they extract a political benefit.

It is very doubtful that to these communities want the independence completes, and more in an Europe that joins. What I believe that many Spanish think, is that they tense the rope to obtain all the political possible power, but without managing to break it.

Spain goes 30 years of democracy living with the Basque problem where there is a terrorist group that murders, kidnaps, extracts... and the things have changed little.

But though it does not look like, even in the politics, the Spanish we are 35 more millions, to part of Basques and Catalans (though there are Basques and Catalans not nationalistic ), and of this like they do not protest, since they do not demand, since they do not tense the rope ... it seems that nobody remembers. And in these 35 millions there are persons of different ideology, but where the majority they prefer that there exists a general, good and equal consensus for all and that the problems that really are important to the citizens be resolved.
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  #397  
Old 10-13-2007, 10:52 AM
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Nonsense!!Absolute nonsense,you guys do have an uncanny sense for sensation.Some Catalans burning pictures.So what?Nothing against Catalans tho,I've lived happily among them for quite some time,but some take their sense/nonsense on "nationalism" too far indeed,they only ridicule themselves and,I say it again,have soo totally forgotten where they've come from and who is at the very center of the freedom they now enjoy and hold,and mis-use/abuse.
And forget it,I will not take this back.Nunca.The Catalans behave more and more like a spoilt rotten selfish lot,nothing more.Que"ll rísée,este broma de Espana.
Lucien, I think the article is talking about the press censorship that has been done in Spain since always, but now is even higher, because the RF is not as respected as it was 5,10 years ago and the press, cartoons are now making fun of them in ways they do not like

Going to jail for a cartoon? gotta be kidding me, the judges are almost as bad as radical muslims with the mahoma cartoon guy in Denmark

A lot of protests are in Catalunya and Euskadi, but it's not only there and it's not only the radicals that burn things, there are also very pacific manifestations, it's a bit of everything
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  #398  
Old 10-13-2007, 11:16 AM
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There are things that are not new, there are things that go this way 30 years and even many more.

At this moment, great part of this noise they have its origin and purpose in political questions, because in a few months there are elections. As consequence of 11M and the elections that took place a few days later, a certain break took was produced between both principal political groups of the country, which always they had supported a certain consensus in principal questions.

This circumstance produced that the minority groups, many nationalists and independence, were acquiring more power. The electoral Spanish system favors to these minority groups, and for them often they turn into obliged associates in order that the big groups could govern. In case of the current government of Zapatero, this happened with a group independence and Catalan republican who is ERC. With more power, and certain control on the government, they have done what they have wanted. They have taken advantage of this gap that exists estre both big groups that represent the majority of the Spanish, to extract benefits. These groups look for the clash and the confrontation, because of it they extract a political benefit.

It is very doubtful that to these communities want the independence completes, and more in an Europe that joins. What I believe that many Spanish think, is that they tense the rope to obtain all the political possible power, but without managing to break it.

Spain goes 30 years of democracy living with the Basque problem where there is a terrorist group that murders, kidnaps, extracts... and the things have changed little.

But though it does not look like, even in the politics, the Spanish we are 35 more millions, to part of Basques and Catalans (though there are Basques and Catalans not nationalistic ), and of this like they do not protest, since they do not demand, since they do not tense the rope ... it seems that nobody remembers. And in these 35 millions there are persons of different ideology, but where the majority they prefer that there exists a general, good and equal consensus for all and that the problems that really are important to the citizens be resolved.
desculpe,but not "30 years and more",30 years and more saw Franco's rule,no-one,in or from Spain,could even utter a word in this direction without the whiplash.Spain has come a long way since,to a very high degree thanks to HM.But los stupidos seem to forget sooo easily,untill disaster strikes again one day,meanwhile they act like chicken loosing their head.
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  #399  
Old 10-13-2007, 11:19 AM
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Please, Crisiñaki, the topic of " El Jueves " already bores. This magazine goes doing cartoons of the King and of the Royal Family 30 years, and until this year it had never happened at all. But this time they were too far, and someone decided to denounce them. And already ... the topic was ended, to continue using it to publicize and to attack to the Royal Family, that they are not who has taken the decision and who have done the laws ... it is absurd and unjust. Or probably the unique argument that some of they of them can use... In addition, nobody is going to go to the jail because of it, a fine yes, the jail, not.

It is a certain Crisiñaki, the Catalans began, and they have followed others, because since they have had advertising, now they are happy and feel winning ... sad enough and outrageous. Now they are radical groups of extreme right, which burn the independence leaders.

On the other hand, in these days, I still have not seen any great pacific manifestation in opposition to the Wreath... only some minority groups that join the current begun by others.

It is curious, which makes sad is that the opinion of radical values more, of one or another ideology, that that of thousands of persons who were celebrating yesterday in Madrid the National Day, with absolute tranquility. This it is always a curious contradiction, if in an act of any member of the Royal Family there are 300 applauding, and 10 protesting, the news always they are those who protest. It is evident that polemic and the noise sells better.
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Old 10-13-2007, 11:28 AM
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desculpe,but not "30 years and more",30 years and more saw Franco's rule,no-one,in or from Spain,could even utter a word in this direction without the whiplash.Spain has come a long way since,to a very high degree thanks to HM.But los stupidos seem to forget sooo easily,untill disaster strikes again one day,meanwhile they act like chicken loosing their head.
Lucien, I believe that you have not understood me.

Independence Catalan and Basque movements already they existed in epoch of Franco, and in previous epochs. Evidently in epoch of Franco they did not have the rights and the freedom that they have now. Sometimes it seems that while they evolve the rest, they remain suspended in their own ideologies without seeing anything more.

One of the best examples is ETA, it was created still in epoch of Franco, and as soon as the democracy came there was a split in ETA. Them it was that they decided to continue an armed fight, but also a part that decided retired weapons and to choose for defend their ideas in a democratic form.
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