Future of The Spanish Monarchy

[crisiñaki]

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Publico : Home - Guerra de banderas frente a la Audiencia Nacional
Queman fotos del Rey en Gerona | elmundo.es
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in Oviedo:

http://mas.lne.es/fotos/img/2007/10/...70076821-6.jpg

In Navarra, Catalunya and Euskadi, there are a lot of city halls that don't display the spanish flag (rojigualda) even if that's mandatory by law and only show their flag (senyera in Catalunya, ikurriña in Euskadi) or simply don't show a flag at all:

La polémica de las banderas | elmundo.es

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Ibarretxe propone una consulta en el País Vasco el 25 de octubre de 2008 | elmundo.es

things are changing now in Spain, let's hope these changes bring the best for all of us *cough* federal republic *cough*

[lula]

Crisiñaki, if the things have to change for groups of radical, that break laws, they compel and threaten ... badly we go. I do not understand that anybody, so as to support a certain ideology, endorses these actions. The same ones that burn photos of the King, have threatened with death some politicians in the last weeks, for not sharing their ideas. No Spanish of good endorses these attitudes. This cloud of smoke is extracting to the worse of Spain, the radical left side and the radical right, while the rest of the country (the majority of the country) observes amazed the situation.

The majority of these acts are organized (nothing is spontaneous) for independence radical Catalan groups. They start seeming their attitudes increasingly to those of the independence Basques, this that they support ETA, and that they burn things and threaten every week. Though at the moment, the catalans burn photos of the King, and ETA has tried to murder him.

The topic of the flags is there for 30 years, because they go 30 years breaking the law. That now this topic is in use politics, it is another thing.

[donnaK]

If the anti-monarchy campaign were initiated by the nationalists in Catalonia, then it surely wouldn't go anywhere, since the majority of Spaniards don't like to see Catalonia becomes another nation. That's exactly the challenge for the Republicans, how to hold the nation together. The King had been untouchable for a very long time, sooner or later he would be subject to the criticism by some. He has done many great things for Spain, also made mistakes too, Federico Jimenez Losantos was ranting against him, well, nobody (including the King) can be liked by all.
Each country is different and the expectations are also at different levels. Sweden in the early 70s had a very old King and a playboy crown prince. After the old King died, the Swedes were just glad that their playboy King finally got married and settled down even though he got married to a commoner. The Swedish King has never been seen as one of the sharpest knife in the drawer even today, I really have a hard time to see him in the shoes of Juan Carlos no matter whom he is married to.

[Duke of Marmalade]

Originally Posted by donnaK

Each country is different and the expectations are also at different levels. Sweden in the early 70s had a very old King and a playboy crown prince. After the old King died, the Swedes were just glad that their playboy King finally got married and settled down even though he got married to a commoner. The Swedish King has never been seen as one of the sharpest knife in the drawer even today, I really have a hard time to see him in the shoes of Juan Carlos no matter whom he is married to.

You are right, we cannot compare. Queen Silvia changed everything for the better but it's another country, history, role understanding. Carl Gustaf needed somebody to stand in the spotlight for him whilst he could work in the background and Silvia was the perfect match. I said in an earlier post it's about being the right person at the right time doing the right thing, what applies to people as JC or Queen Silvia. Felipe has to deal with his own circumstances and if there ever was the chance to marry a woman who could turn Juancarlistas into Felipistas, it's gone now. Letizia has not and will not make Felipe look any better or the monarchy any more stable but I don't think her role is somewhat decisive in this matter either.

Some say Felipe is not fit for purpose but what exactly is the purpose? I am not really sure what people expect from Felipe since he probably won't have the golden opportunity his father had and there is not too much history or tradition in the spanish monarchy that the (living) spanish public can think of. JC is very much related to the mission he had, guiding the country into democracy but what do people want Felipe for?
That's much different in other countries where the public wants their heirs to follow into the footsteps of their predecessors and representing the monarchy in present times. The best prepared and most stable heir is probably Willem Alexander who married a woman with the ability to strenghten the monarchy and who is respected in his own right, becoming fit for purpose not only through his marriage but also through the guidance of his mother and the influence of his late father.

[lula]

Duke, curiously, in these days, the Prince scarcely enters in the debate (except for Jimenez Losantos's determination in that the King renounces). The debate and the assaults of these groups are more centred on the King, probably because for some, to attack the Monarchy, in these circumstances, it is more to attack the Headquarters of the State, that to attack the institution in it (case of the independence more radical) ... and for others it is a moment to take advantage of the circumstances and to expire old revenges (it is not necessary to forget that the most extreme right was the one that more lost with the democracy). Everything is inside a political general speech.

I believe, and it is a general enough opinion, that this type of attitudes become discredited to the persons and the message. The things do not defend themselves in this form.

On the Prince, I believe that the people can wait that is a moderating element, that though in another historical moment, he can play this role. Also that is a good representative of the State and a good ambassador of Spain in the exterior. Probably in his case they would be necessary certain changes. I am going to try to explain. The Prince is not going to have one 23F (let's wait), but I believe that there are small things in which the Prince can learn of certain mistakes of his father (precisely of those that use some to attack him). Probably these changes are more positive for the Institution, that a great political action.

On the Princess, always I have thought and I will continue thinking that it has been an excuse, and an excuse that is going out. The wife of the Prince always was going to be questioned, for a few reasons or for others, because it was going to be the element foreign to the Royal Family with a position of more power. Ultimately, who lasts win, and the time puts everything in its place. Though the press tries to continue taking advantage of the golden vein of the Princess, the topic already bores, has become absurd and incomprehensible, the critiques have lost increasingly felt.

[donnaK]

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade

You are right, we cannot compare. Queen Silvia changed everything for the better but it's another country, history, role understanding. Carl Gustaf needed somebody to stand in the spotlight for him whilst he could work in the background and Silvia was the perfect match. I said in an earlier post it's about being the right person at the right time doing the right thing, what applies to people as JC or Queen Silvia. Felipe has to deal with his own circumstances and if there ever was the chance to marry a woman who could turn Juancarlistas into Felipistas, it's gone now. Letizia has not and will not make Felipe look any better or the monarchy any more stable but I don't think her role is somewhat decisive in this matter either.

JC is still the King of Spain. How can Spaniards become Felipistas when Felipe is not the King yet ? The Spaniards were not Juancarlistas when JC was the Prince of Spain. I doubt the woman who can turn the Spaniards into Felipistas right now even exists. As great as Queen Sofia was/is, she didn't turn the Spaniards into Juancarlistas, she only became popular after the famous scandal in 92 involving JC and his long term mistress. The Spaniards started to appreciate her professionalism and dedication to the crown.
Many think Felipe looks better now, he has become more cultured, intellectual, less pijo, got rid of the frivolous image when he was single. Whether it's good enough to turn the Spaniards into Felipistas after he becomes the King, I don't know, we will see what happen in the future. With the current political situation in Spain, that is not ready for the Republic yet, if Felipe were the King today, he would get the chance to prove if he is a worthy Head of State or not. Nobody can predict the political climate 10 years from now.

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade

Some say Felipe is not fit for purpose but what exactly is the purpose? I am not really sure what people expect from Felipe since he probably won't have the golden opportunity his father had and there is not too much history or tradition in the spanish monarchy that the (living) spanish public can think of. JC is very much related to the mission he had, guiding the country into democracy but what do people want Felipe for?

If he is better than the politicians (like his father), he will have a better chance to stay. The Spanish public is practical too.

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade

That's much different in other countries where the public wants their heirs to follow into the footsteps of their predecessors and representing the monarchy in present times. The best prepared and most stable heir is probably Willem Alexander who married a woman with the ability to strenghten the monarchy and who is respected in his own right, becoming fit for purpose not only through his marriage but also through the guidance of his mother and the influence of his late father.

Yes, the other countries are a bit different since they see Monarchy as part of their history and identity. I agree WA is the most stable heir since he is the Dutch heir, not Spanish heir. I don't know if WA is the best prepared, I doubt he would have done better than Felipe if he were the PoA of Spain.

[Duke of Marmalade]

[quote=lula;675660]

On the Prince, I believe that the people can wait that is a moderating element, that though in another historical moment, he can play this role. Also that is a good representative of the State and a good ambassador of Spain in the exterior. Probably in his case they would be necessary certain changes. I am going to try to explain. The Prince is not going to have one 23F (let's wait), but I believe that there are small things in which the Prince can learn of certain mistakes of his father (precisely of those that use some to attack him). Probably these changes are more positive for the Institution, that a great political action.

Thanks for explaining lula. I have no doubt that Felipe would be or already is a good represetative of the State and a good ambassador for Spain, especially abroad, but isn't this the job that should be done by an elected Head of State in a republic? Why then need a monarchy to fulfill this purpose? And if all these nice privileges that JC enjoyed and somehow stand for a monarchy (all other monarchs enjoy them too one or the other way) have to go I wonder why keeping up the institution. Not sure, aren't there enough charismatic or respected politicians around in Spain to do the job? Or does the public want to see a dressed up royal family from time to time so they can discuss or critizise everything from their right to existence to Letizia's clothes?

[Duke of Marmalade]

[quote=donnaK;675663]

JC is still the King of Spain. How can Spaniards become Felipistas when Felipe is not the King yet ? The Spaniards were not Juancarlistas when JC was the Prince of Spain.

Correct but mainly because they did not know what to expect, keeping in mind the dictatorial background. With Felipe it's very different. He has been prepared and presented to the public as heir for almost 40 years now in order to prepare the ground for the public to become Felipistas one day. It remains to be seen if the campaign was successful.

I doubt the woman who can turn the Spaniards into Felipistas right now even exists. As great as Queen Sofia was/is, she didn't turn the Spaniards into Juancarlistas, she only became popular after the famous scandal in 92 involving JC and his long term mistress. The Spaniards started to appreciate her professionalism and dedication to the crown.

You are probably right, maybe the climate in Spain did and still does not allow such a woman. I recall that scandal very well and hope that Letizia does not have to endure the same to be appreciated or respected by the Spanish public

Yes, the other countries are a bit different since they see Monarchy as part of their history and identity. I agree WA is the most stable heir since he is the Dutch heir, not Spanish heir. I don't know if WA is the best prepared, I doubt he would have done better than Felipe if he were the PoA of Spain.

Agree. As you say it's that history and identity that is missing in Spain that would make things much more easy for Felipe. It does not only help but can be decisive for survival or abolishment.

[lula]

Duke, the same question you can do it to you in all the countries that have Monarchies. Why do they support them? Only for history? Have they asked at some time their citizens if they want Monarchy? Or they are institutions that continue there century after century, and already...

The Monarchy has its positive part and its negative part, is not chosen ... but if it is an institution that works, assures you a Headquarters of the State, moderate, educate well and formed,and with relations that they work for many years. I believe that there are two factors, the not political element and the element education, which they are fundamental.

In Spain there is an alternation of two big political groups, the idea of a person Chief of State, who is neither of one nor of other one, offers a line of continuity and stability. In Spain we are alternating, a Government has an average life of approximately 8 years, from there it "burns" and passes to another side. Curiously, in many surveys some of the better valued politicians are those who occupy more centrist opinions, nevertheless inside their groups and precisely because of it, these politicians are separated.
On the other hand, many of our politicians have deficiencies in their formation, and do little for changing it. It turns out to be shameful and is a motive of jeer that our President of the Goverment do not speak languages.

[lula]

Duke, is in the habit of saying that we are a country of passions, so soon someone is in the altar like it we go down to the hells, or on the contrary.
The Queen Sofia has gained the respect went by the years , initially she was not got well for certain sectors.

The Princess of Asturias suffered the rejection of certain sectors, and in addition she turned into a " mine of gold " for the press. Then it began a game at which everything was good, the lie and the turpitude included. Initially, probably many people suffered this pleasure that the normal persons we feel when we criticize to rich and famous. The Princess follows their way, and limits to doing what she has to do. And while, they continue extracting others every slightly new day. But like it is necessary to refill the programs of television or the magazines, which is extracted or is repeated or increasingly absurdity. And ultimately, many people end up by perceiving these assaults as absurd.

And as soon as already it has come near to the most complete of the absurdities, it begins a new process, in which the things are calmer. Then, the persons start perceiving the things otherwise, and value more the Princess for supporting with dignity this harassment and continuing doing what has to do, of what they value these critiques or gossips.

[Duke of Marmalade]

[quote=lula;675685]

Duke, the same question you can do it to you in all the countries that have Monarchies. Why do they support them? Only for history? Have they asked at some time their citizens if they want Monarchy? Or they are institutions that continue there century after century, and already...

I think it's a mix of both. History is important, the longer the better because the longer a monarchy exists and has served the country and its people the more respected it will be and the more difficult it will become to get rid of it. People simply can't imagine their country without the institution because it has always been there, in some cases for almost a millennium (I am not sure though what would happen in some countries if a public vote was conducted; especially young people are less interested). This connection is missing in Spain and obviously part of the problem. Those who want a republic probably will never have a better chance to abolish the institution than now or within Felipe's reign.

It turns out to be shameful and is a motive of jeer that our President of the Goverment do not speak languages

It is indeed but not a spanish problem. There are even Heads of State around who hardly speak English, are struggling with their own language or don't know to behave in other cultures etc

[Duke of Marmalade]

Originally Posted by lula

I have the impression, of which the King and with it the strategies of the House of His Majesty the King, they have remained stagnant. They have not been capable of adapting to the pace dizzy in that the society has changed. There is something that does not work.

I agree with you and Spain is not the only country facing this problem. It's the same in Britain where the CP already tries to do things his way with his own office but it's a different question if this is a good thing or a bad thing .

[crisiñaki]

I'm not endorsing the "burning" acts, I do not think that's the right way to do things, but those are manifestations of how many people feel about the whole monarchy thing

Things aren't heated just in Catalunya or in Euskadi, that pic I shown was from Oviedo, where people were having a pacific manifestation pro-republic, there have been manifestations in Madrid, in Sevilla, in a lot of places; the only die-hard monarchist I know are people over 60 and they aren't gonna live forever you know, most people under 40 is not a monarchist or simply don't care for it

Spain is not a monarchy-loving country per se (that's why we have had 2 republics, the last one failed because of that #~#€#~¬#¬#@~ called Franco and his megalomaniac ways), maybe we will have the Greek situation, there the monarchy was re-instated and the next generation it was permanently banned in a referendum

I don't think the chance will occur when JC is still the king, but I do believe things will change when he dies (just like what happened with King Pavlos and Prince Constantine in the 60's)

We just have to wait and see if we get 30 more years of a monarchy or it ends (I really hope so) when KJC takes his last trip to el Escorial (or wherever he's gonna be buried at)

God save the King, at least long enough to leave the country in a better situation where we can choose whether we want to be under the Borbon rule or not

[lula]

Crisiñaki, which in a country of 44 million persons there are no persons who are republican and demonstrate for their ideas ... it would be a miracle ... in Oviedo there was a group of 10 or 20 young people, and there was more than 100 acclaiming the Kings. More of once and of two, groups of republicans, communists and others, they have organized protests. But in general, which acclaim the Kings overcome those who protest.

Another thing, it is what is happening in Catalonia with the whole serie of violent acts, in which thery insulted and threaten. These acts are totally organized and endorsed by independence Catalan groups, which can be mobilized very well to do noise, more if they have publicizes. But the methods that they are using are accepted neither by great majority of the Spanish, nor many Catalans.

One is free to express ideas, but there are forms and forms. And this is not the way of defending nothing.

[crisiñaki]

Of course, that's not the way to do things, violence is never the way, but it works like a cathartic method for the feelings of some people in there

Do you honestly think that Spain is a pro-monarchy country? I don't think so, the Kings are liked and respected, but the institution (not talking about any people in the SRF, I'm talking about the monarchy as the form of State) isn't as popular, at least not in the post-franquist generation

I'd like to see pics or info about people protesting against the monarchy in UK, Norway, Netherlands, which is really small; it's all about the spanish situation, which can be related to the Greek situation in the 60's or the Belgian situation in the last years

[*SofiaM*]

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I think that the way the royal family, particularly The King, have been shielded by the media has played one of the major parts in the recent problems.
If people had always been able to express themselves and their opinions about what they liked/did not like about the SRF it wouldn't have all accumilated- one newspaper or magazine starts the 'bashing' (whether justified or not) and the rest follow.

Of course I know not everything comes down to this, (protests in Catalunya, Basque country etc..) because we all know that these issues have been going on for a long time now. In an El Mundo article (and something I have a small percentage of belief in), the people have become so exacerbated with the government that they have chosen to use the monarchy as an attention grabber.

I know that not everything that the King does/has done is perfect and it's obvious, as crisiñaki has said, that Spain is not a pro-monarchy country, but as someone who grew up in Spain, I think that it is a real shame that it has gotten to this stage. Pictures of our King and Queen been burned?!

[lula]

I have never said that Spain should be a deeply monarchic country, but it is a country that thinks that the Monarchy is useful for the country (according to th poll of the magazine Tiempo of today, realized in addition by a Catalan company). In the last days I have seen and listened, journalists that they declare themselves republicans, but that think that the Monarchy is good for Spain. Another day a journalist was commenting that the republiquinismo is something that cannot be based only on a form of government, it is a set of ideas related to the democracy. And probably, the better thing in democracy be to accept that though the things are not perfect or they are not like you would wish, if they work and are good for all, it is good to support them.

I do not believe that be necessary to compare countries with others, every country has its problems and every society have its reactions.

Spain is a country where the protests they go out to the street, where the people manifest often for multiple things. I do not know if it is habitual in other countries. The people manifest for the good thing and for the bad thing, of civic form or as "savages".

There are bad examples every week, but I am going to take the good one. The reaction of the Spanish in 11M, when millions of persons went out to the street, took place neither in New York nor in London. Different societies reacted in a different way.

For my, if this type of debates develop of a coherent form, they are useful and healthy. Also to the Monarchy things must to be demanded. If they do well their work it is necessary to to recognize, and if they it do evil, it is possible to criticize them.

Ultimately, these actions have been of radical groups and have received reactions of radical others; on the one hand independence Catalans, for other one ultraright-wingers. The worst of the country has gone out to the street. But these groups, though they do very much noise are a minority.

Out of these groups, this weekend and in Barcelona, a political group, it has organized a manifestation asking the for the respect to the institutions. A political group, which leader has been threatened with dead, across a photography with a shot in the head, by the same ones that burn the photos of the King. They attack all that that goes against their radical ideas.

[fanprincipesasturi]

Tiempo


THE CONSULTATION MADE BY "TIME" CONFIRMS THE CONFIDENCE IN THE KING The Spaniards, with Corona the Monarchy very is respected by the citizens, in spite of the attacks against the institution of some minority groups that have seen amplified their performances. An exclusive survey of the Gabinet d'Estudis Socials i Public Opinió (Gesop) for "Time" therefore demonstrates it. 85.3% of the Spaniards consider that the paper of Corona has been positive for the Spanish democracy and almost two thirds think that the Monarchy continues being good or very good in the present times. Although to see it it is enough with going out, always is well verifying it. "Time" has asked the citizens what the King and the Monarchy think about. The results return to be "apabullante". (To see detailed data of the survey of Gesop).

[aryo]

duke wrote:
History is important, the longer the better because the longer a monarchy exists and has served the country and its people the more respected it will be and the more difficult it will become to get rid of it.
I can't agree,look at my country,3000 years of kingdom disappeared in less than one year,i think the performance and people's satisfaction are more important.
but all these happening is a good warning for RF to be more aware of what going on in their country and i am glad that all these happen when KJC is alive.

[crisiñaki]

More protests in Madrid and Catalunya:

Varias decenas de personas protestan contra la monarquía en Madrid - 20minutos.es
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Manifestaciones en 7 localidades catalanas a favor de los jóvenes acusados de quemar fotos del Rey- Lavanguardia.es - Noticias, actualidad, última hora en Cataluña y España

I blame the media (for not standing up and for hiding things all these years) and the House of the King (the staff), they have dealt very badly with a lot of things lately and it's giving more ammo for republicans to express the feeling