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  #221  
Old 08-31-2007, 01:15 PM
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Felipe's gonna have a hard time if he ever gets the throne, and his odds are lessening by the minute
There are a lot of republicans in Spain, a lot of people don't wanna the monarchy
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  #222  
Old 08-31-2007, 02:06 PM
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Perhaps for that reason the treatment that has occurred to Doña Letizia not has given her no other member of the family. It has been criticized to her not to have children and to have them, by his thinness and its form to dress, its smile, for his origins, to take well with the his mother-in-law and, most incredible, to shine bikini on the high seas, as if most of the less young young people and of this country they did not use that beach article, swimming pools and boats. What demonstrates that to many citizens they did not like that the Prince chose a modern woman, who has known to remove the chestnuts from the fire without more aid than the one of her family and a great force of will.
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  #223  
Old 08-31-2007, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by crisiñaki View Post
Felipe's gonna have a hard time if he ever gets the throne, and his odds are lessening by the minute
First, excuse me but I have some difficulties to well understand the meaning "gonna" in a sentence. Is this expression very frequent in the english written or is an oral expression?

Then for the hard job of the Prince of Asturias - may be we can say now for the Princes of Asturias- it seems to me that since a long time Felipe knows how it will be difficult to be King of Spain. May be I'm wrong but I beleive that in an interview when he was going home after the Georgetown University, he said that the throne had to be win day by day, may be minute by minute. I'm very confident about the fact that the Princes of Asturias are able to determine the best way to succeed in a very hard job, this to becoming Kings of Spain in a century were the monarchic system could be analyse as a true anchronism.

When you speak with spanish people, it's absolutly clear that the most reluctant for the acceptation of Felipe as a king are the aristocratic circles who pretend that the Prince of Asturias don't have neither the personality of his father nor his intellignce. They add that with his wedding with the granddaughter of a taxi driver he did by himself a "lese majesty " crime.
We can remark that this part of the spanish society is not very powerful and today very numerous. It's clear too that Princes of Asturias don't look at them to succeed in their aim.

The principal source of the Princes of Asturias's help is in the middle class of Spain which is very numerous and the main objectif of the Princes is to convince the young population whom the politic ideas are very ambiguous about the monarchy that it will always be very good for Spain and the spagniards. I think that it wil here the most hard job of the Princes to be credible.
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  #224  
Old 08-31-2007, 02:11 PM
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well adelaide, gonna is the contraction of Going to

I have spanish ancestry, have family there and lots of friends as well, not to mention I travel there a lot; and I know a lot of republicans, specially in the younger generations

the old people (over 60 years and so) are usually monarchists, but the young ones, the ones who didn't live under Franco's regime, are mostly republican, and those will be the subjects of an eventual reign of Felipe; they don't care if Letizia is middle class or whatever, they don't want a monarchy period

the republican aren't only comunists or left-wing followers, there are a lot of them, with a lot of different beliefs; they aren't a small insolated group of people, there are quite several of them

Felipe and Letizia aren't as popular as some people might have led us to believe
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  #225  
Old 08-31-2007, 02:40 PM
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The Spanish we do move for convenience, are not deeply monarchic but so republican either. We criticize to the Monarchy like we criticize the politicians. And we criticize them because they occupy a position of power.

But ultimately, the certain thing is that when there is a survey and this one it includes the whole society, the Monarchy continues being the most valued Institution.

We can think that the Monarchy is not the perfect way of government ... but we do not also trust in that the politicians that we have could take forward a stable Republic.

Crisiñaki, on the young people ... the strange thing would be that they were deeply monarchic. With 20 years you are rebellious and progressive and modern ... but the life and the mentality to the 20 is not the same that to the 30. Many people go on from an idealistic thought to a more reflexive thought.
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  #226  
Old 08-31-2007, 02:54 PM
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well, you might be right lula, but I know a lot of people who are in their 30 and 40 and are republicans, the 20 year olds care for nothing

the monarchy is not the most respected institution, the Kings are very respected, the rest of the family not that much
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  #227  
Old 08-31-2007, 02:58 PM
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The Times is indeed a serious newspaper, but most of the time, the Times and the Sunday Times didn't have nice things to say about the Spanish monarchy, on the other hand, the Spanish media rarely said nice things on the English monarchy either.
It's not so hard to use the quotes of some of the side stream anti-monarchy politicians (PP and PSOE are the two main political parties in Spain) to slam on JC and the SRF although the article also made a few good points (ex. the transparency of the finance).
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  #228  
Old 08-31-2007, 03:18 PM
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this is a topic that you would never see in a serious newspaper in Spain, they tend to do some kind of self-censure when it comes to the SRF, the british press doesn't say nice things about the SRF 'cuz they usually say the things that the same spanish press kept hidden

the PP and PSOE would never say something against the monarchy, 'cuz it's the system that works for all of them to keep the power, and it all comes down to a power struggle and to keep it

my grandparents are juancarlistas forever, since it was better to live under JC than under Franco and the dictatorship; my father is a republican, most of his friends are, they respect the Kings but after they go, they would like to be able to elect their Chief of State and many people is thinking about the same lines
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  #229  
Old 08-31-2007, 03:27 PM
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Evidently, there are republicans of all the ages ... but your reference has been to the youth, a sector of the population who always is more liberal and of more changeable thought. The societies change, and evidently the Spanish society is more liberal than 30 years ago, and not then not now has even been a deeply monarchic society. But this critical attitude that can be had towards the Monarchy they are had also towards other institutions of the State.
For the official surveys of the Center of Sociological Investigations the Monarchy is valued as institution; in the survey of October of last year the Monarchy is over the Government or the Parliament (only they overcome the army and the police).
SAS Output

Donna, it demonstrates little seriousness that has the press nowadays... In general, every time they are less professional, and forget to confirm information or to give a complete vision of the same ones.
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  #230  
Old 08-31-2007, 04:06 PM
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Crisiñaki, I consider myself to be neither monarchic nor republican, but if it is in day I have to choose a Chief of State, prefer to a Felipe de Borbón that to any Spanish politician. Simply because I believe that he can give a better service to the State.

I prefer a Chief of State, who at least speaks languages, which formation and who knows the international politics, and who is capable of happening without sticking to a political ideas. I have confidence in which he can exercise a good role. If he was a disaster, ignoramus and vague, one would question it.

If the today politicians were capable of doing the sacrifices that the politicians of theTransition, it would not be important for me to have a President of the Republic ... but again and again they demonstrate that they are not capable. The Spanish politicians go from bad to worse, there come to positions of power persons who scarcely have formation, which with luck they have approved Law. They live facing constant, each one looks for own interest, and when they come to the power they take advantage well. They are unable to take together decisions of State, and face even in what they agree. With a politicians who go adriff, the Prince offers me more enough confidence that they.

If the PP and the PSOE, support the King, it is because they have the duty to be persons in charge. It is not a secret that the King helps to cover enough the mistakes of the politicians, mistakes that are of them, but that affect the State and all the citizens. Evidently those that they do not govern, and those who win with the clashes, little matters for them the King, is more troubles them.

The Monarchy can be a paradox in the Europe of the 21st century, but it does not stop being true that works enough good in the States in which it exists. It is not possible to choose them but it has its advantages.
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  #231  
Old 08-31-2007, 04:23 PM
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I have never paid close attention to the Spanish Royal family because they looked so happy and united. They seem so popular with their subjects. I view Infanta Elena as an epitome of elegance and sophisticated aristocratism.
While perusing this thread, I have been amazed to learn that the Spanish Royal family seems to be surrounded with controversies related to financial improprieties.
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  #232  
Old 08-31-2007, 04:40 PM
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While perusing this thread, I have been amazed to learn that the Spanish Royal family seems to be surrounded with controversies related to financial improprieties.
The topic that treats itself in this articl of The Time is explained badly.

The House of the King acts in agreement to the Law, according to the Spanish Constitution the King receives an economic quantity that the Government establishes, for the maintenance of his family and House, and the King can distribute this money freely.

Another thing is that certain political minority groups, they want that now the King does a separation of all these expenses and publicizes them.
The law does not establish it, and the Parliament has not passed not in the matter at all.

Other things with regard to his patrimony personal, a topic that is more unknown ... but there is a bit absurd the commentary of this news on a luxurious life. If the Spanish Royal Family takes a luxurious life, not since it is possible to define the life of other Chiefs of State, Kings or Presidents of Republics.
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  #233  
Old 08-31-2007, 05:02 PM
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lula, with all due respect, the management of the money given to the Royal House is not completely clear; specially if we know that Juan Carlos came to Spain being quite poor and now he has a lot of money

where did all that come from?

sadly, things about the Spanish monarchy aren't as clear and perfect as you try to make others see
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  #234  
Old 08-31-2007, 05:18 PM
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Every thing in its place.

A thing is the money that the Government assigns to him, and other one his personal patrimony.

The money that the King receives, is for him, for his family and for the maintenance of the House of the King (it is to say, the expenses of the Headquarters of the State and those who are employed at it). This money it establishes the government inside the General Budgets of the State, and is of supposing that as the money that is assigned to any institution of the State it is assigned in agreement to some criterion. Another thing sews it is that the law not requires that publicizes a detailed description of all this information. It is more the law establishes that he distributes it freely.

His personal patrimony is a darker and more unknown topic. I do not believe that he was so poor, his parents did not do life of rich but they were receiving helps of the monarchic ones, and when he married Sofia she was a Princess of Greece. As the years went by he will have been done by a good patrimony, that has not been exempt of controversy. The King had friends, who were some of the most powerful men of Spain, and that finished involved in topics of corruption.

On the other hand, the Prime minister has all his covered expenses, and to parthe receives a salary. Of the same way it is a logician think, that of the money that receives the House of the King, pay the salaries of the Royal Family ... they will save something.

Also there is many confusion on which it belongs to the King and that belongs to the National wealth, and therefore, to the State. All the Palaces belong to the State. The House of The Mareta (gift of the King Hussein) or the yacht Fortune (first gift of the King Fahd and the second one of the businessmen of Majorca), also they belong to the State.
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  #235  
Old 08-31-2007, 05:21 PM
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  #236  
Old 08-31-2007, 09:22 PM
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I respect your opinion lula and I am aware that some part of the spanish population think the way you do and believe in the monarchy and in the continuity of it in the person of Felipe de Borbon

Others think like the way I do and don't wanna continue with that institution, it has served its purpose, but I'd like to be able to choose my Chief of State, just because if it's worthless, then i have the oportunity to change him/her every 4 years, while a King/Queen can only be deployed in a referendum or in a coup

I consider myself juancarlista, but I'll never be a felipista, he doesn't represent what I want for the future of the country and it just isn't about Letizia, I just don't find him suitable (of course, that's just my opinion)

No one here has the absolute truth and isn't allowed to pontificate on those matters, it's all about political points of view
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  #237  
Old 09-01-2007, 04:18 AM
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this is a topic that you would never see in a serious newspaper in Spain, they tend to do some kind of self-censure when it comes to the SRF, the british press doesn't say nice things about the SRF 'cuz they usually say the things that the same spanish press kept hidden
The incidents mentioned in the articles had been reported in the serious newspaper (at least Elmundo), I don't see what had been kept hidden. Of course the seriouls newspaper wouldn't have written a similar article since two politicians from two minor nationalist parties no way represented the opinions of the general public. On people questioning Felipe's fitness to be the King, sure there are people who don't find him suitable, but so far there is no proof that these people belong to the majority of the population.

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Originally Posted by crisiñaki View Post
the PP and PSOE would never say something against the monarchy, 'cuz it's the system that works for all of them to keep the power, and it all comes down to a power struggle and to keep it
The PP and PSOE are the bread and butter of the Spanish politics. If these two parties support the monarchy (for whatever reasons), then Spain will have monarchy.
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  #238  
Old 09-01-2007, 04:45 AM
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lula, with all due respect, the management of the money given to the Royal House is not completely clear; specially if we know that Juan Carlos came to Spain being quite poor and now he has a lot of money

where did all that come from?

sadly, things about the Spanish monarchy aren't as clear and perfect as you try to make others see
I don't believe the King's fortune was from the budget. Beside paying for the Princes, 4 infantas, he has about 100 employees to feed. I think the SRF would have been very lucky not to go over the budget as some other royal families in Europe did.
When a country in in transition, it's much easier for people in power to become rich quickly. JC was not the only one rumored to be very rich, other politicians (including ex-PMs) in Spain were also rumored to be rich. This had happened to lots of other countries, such as Taiwan, China, South Korea, eastern European countries and etc.
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  #239  
Old 09-01-2007, 04:56 AM
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This guy Alvaro Harnden, Madrid, from timesonline, said exactly what I wanted to say .

In the 21st century, monarchy should be analysed from a practical point of view. History aside, King Juan Carlos plays an invaluable political, diplomatic and economic role with a budget way below that of any other comparable head of state (according to your data nearly 8 times smaller than Queen Elizabeth). He is extraordinarily appreciated throughout the World and has more than once been the one to repair political gaffes made by the Spanish government. He knows his job well and has done it for over 30 years. No wonder most Spaniards are "juancarlistas". Whether his son should be King or not is merely a practical issue. If he is half as good as his father at double the cost he will still be a better choice than a more expensive, less experienced President of the Republic.


Alvaro Harnden, Madrid, Spain
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  #240  
Old 09-01-2007, 08:16 AM
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This guy Alvaro Harnden, Madrid, from timesonline, said exactly what I wanted to say .

In the 21st century, monarchy should be analysed from a practical point of view. History aside, King Juan Carlos plays an invaluable political, diplomatic and economic role with a budget way below that of any other comparable head of state (according to your data nearly 8 times smaller than Queen Elizabeth). He is extraordinarily appreciated throughout the World and has more than once been the one to repair political gaffes made by the Spanish government. He knows his job well and has done it for over 30 years. No wonder most Spaniards are "juancarlistas". Whether his son should be King or not is merely a practical issue. If he is half as good as his father at double the cost he will still be a better choice than a more expensive, less experienced President of the Republic.


Alvaro Harnden, Madrid, Spain
Although I share the main essence of Alvaro's opinion, just a slight remark:

With all due respect, I would't call HM The Queen "any other comparable head of state" in regard to JC. There is a reason that JC's budget is 8 times smaller as it does reflect the lesser importance of the Spanish monarchy. Great Britain & Commonwealth etc plus the long history and role of the BRF is very much a different calibre, to be honest.
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