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  #181  
Old 07-24-2007, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
He is a Borbon man after all, so it remains to be seen if he will rather live his own life etc as JC does or if the relationship with Letizia will be a long term success, not only as King & Queen teamwork but from a romantic point of view

This "Is all in the genes" work for everybody and not only in the Borbón House... In other Monarchies happened out-of-wedlock children and the new generations seem very much in love and devoted to their wives and family life .
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  #182  
Old 07-24-2007, 01:48 PM
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You might be right. I recall Felipe's wedding, shouldn't JC have walked into the cathedral with Paloma by his side instead of his sister. Not to mention the usual family pics with Letizia's family where he always looks as if he wants to be somewhere else Do you know if this is different with Jaime's family as there is kind of an aristocratic background?
JC treated his non-royal in-laws pretty much the same whether they are aristocratic or common, rich or poor. Perhaps he is following British RF's example of keeping all non-royal in-laws out of the Palace wall. I haven't heard he invited his in-laws for any family event, none of them was allowed to stay at the Palace for the wedding or baptism.

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Sometimes I wonder how Felipe will develop once his marriage to Letizia will have passed 15, 20 years, being King. He is a Borbon man after all, so it remains to be seen if he will rather live his own life etc as JC does or if the relationship with Letizia will be a long term success, not only as King & Queen teamwork but from a romantic point of view
Felipe also has his mother's genes. Sometimes I wonder if Sofia had loosened up a little, some things might be more forgiven. Look at Albert and Paola, each had his/her 'good time' when they were young, now both turn grey, they are holding hands and kissing each other again.
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  #183  
Old 07-24-2007, 07:11 PM
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I did no read anything about Letizia talking about a "project" as the Duke of Marmalade aledged.
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  #184  
Old 07-25-2007, 12:06 AM
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Monarchy future? I see it black, very black, and not only in Spain. Royals are lacking their duties, and doing whatever they want...and if they wants to do something good to their peoples, they can't. They could be turned away from their throne, since they are not "political power" any more.

Royals could be seen mainly in beaches, parties and reading speaches for suposedly caritative purposes (speaches written by third persons), and leaving a life that could be the one of "the-next-door-boy or girl". Monarchy has lost all the charisma and powerful magic it had. And this is in every country of the world, but three or four.

I'm not a Republican. I'm a deep convinced Monarchist. But if Monarchy is no more Monarchy , it's worse or at least the same than a Republic. I'm not pesimist, since I think that all things could re-born and being alive again. But the way they are, Monarchy is dying, or I must better said, Monarchy IS dead. The institution bearing its name its not a Monarchy any more.

Vanesa.

P.S: Besides, even Republic are no more Republics. Presidents and PM have no more real power than Kings and Queens.
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  #185  
Old 07-30-2007, 06:30 AM
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The only situation the If the monarchy is abolished in the future, it's because it out lives its purpose. The consort's own royal status probably makes no difference.
You are absolutely correct about that. Juan Carlos helped the Spaniards out of a terrible dictatorship. He has been an outstanding monarch-figurehead and is recognized as such by the Press worldwide.
To their credit, both Juan Carlos and Sofia have kept even the nobility at bay, let alone the fact that titles in Spain are not substantive, meaning that, in contrast to the UK, dukes, counts etc have no higher status than commoners. There are no legal privileges for nobility which, by the way, is something that the nobility dislikes.

Further, Juan Carlos and Sofia have maintained a very relaxed protocol. Royal protocol can't be more relaxed than it is now in Spain. The way he hugs and kisses people and holds their right arm with his left hand while shaking hands with them is indicative of that and the same is true about Sofia. Juan Carlos has also been very effective in preserving the democratic institutions and he, the queen and their son have been travelling all over Latin America promoting Ibero-American relations.

So, insofar as the king's contribution is concerned, things can't get any better than they are now in Spain.

However, sooner or later, the purpose they serve will be over. It is not just the destiny of Spain but that of the European Union as a whole. In 10, 20 years, Europe will become a political entity with common foreign policy and defense. Although there is no competition or conflict whatsoever between the central European government and individual monarchies within Europe, the strength of the central government and, therefore, the political stability and security it provides to individual member countries will inevitably cancel the purpose of of monarchy.
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  #186  
Old 07-30-2007, 06:43 AM
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However, sooner or later, the purpose they serve will be over. It is not just the destiny of Spain but that of the European Union as a whole. In 10, 20 years, Europe will become a political entity with common foreign policy and defense. Although there is no competition or conflict whatsoever between the central European government and individual monarchies within Europe, the strength of the central government and, therefore, the political stability and security it provides to individual member countries will inevitably cancel the purpose of of monarchy.
Interesting. You might be right. I can imagine this szenario for some countries, like Spain, but can't for others, like Britain. There is so much tradition and history ... but I am sure the role will change dramatically, in this case after QE II's death. The role of a monarch will be limited and changed towards less importance, someting that will apply to all monarchies. And during this process, I can imagine, some won't survive, I think Spain will be among them, some will remain on a cut short level, such as Britain. Will be interesting to see what's left of this forum in 30 years time
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  #187  
Old 07-31-2007, 04:58 AM
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I did no read anything about Letizia talking about a "project" as the Duke of Marmalade aledged.
This is what Letizia said - my spanish is only very basic but I understand that she called it a project indeed.

“Entiendo la sorpresa que ha causado esta decisión a casi todos pero es una decisión madura, fruto de reflexiones muy intensas y sobre todo con el peso y la solidez del profundo amor que nos tenemos y del proyecto común que iniciamos. Desde muy joven soy periodista y hasta los 31 años que tengo ahora he ejercido mi profesión con ganas, con ilusión, con fuerza. De esa misma manera afronto lo que ahora iniciamos, con responsabilidad, con ilusión y con vocación de servicio a los españoles. Muchísimas gracias”
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  #188  
Old 07-31-2007, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Vanesa View Post
Royals could be seen mainly in beaches, parties and reading speaches for suposedly caritative purposes (speaches written by third persons), and leaving a life that could be the one of "the-next-door-boy or girl". Monarchy has lost all the charisma and powerful magic it had.
Are you speaking about the Casiraghis who are not royal or even aristocratic? The image you have painted down does not match with what I see from the current monarchs or their Heirs.

I only see dedicated people who are devoted to their country and take their royal duties very serious. I would like to see examples, outside the vacations, of royals only partying and beaching. It is simply not true and is most likely a perspective in your head you have projected on all monarchies.

Maybe Monaco. But that has always been a bit of an operetta monarchy, not to be taken too serious. Monaco has the size of a small provincial city and it is no wonder that there is not that much left for its princely family than enjoying their wealth and take another plunge in the rivièra.

When we look to Spain, you see that the Duque de Lugo and the Duque de Palma have to earn their own living. The same counts for the my royal family: no any other member of the royal family, except the Queen, the Prince of Orange and Princess Máxima receive a single euro from the state. They have to provide in their own living. That will not succeed by partying and beaching all day.
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  #189  
Old 08-01-2007, 02:08 AM
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When we look to Spain, you see that the Duque de Lugo and the Duque de Palma have to earn their own living. The same counts for the my royal family: no any other member of the royal family, except the Queen, the Prince of Orange and Princess Máxima receive a single euro from the state. They have to provide in their own living. That will not succeed by partying and beaching all day.
I believe that Infantas Elena and Cristina still get money from the King=the State.
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  #190  
Old 08-01-2007, 07:01 AM
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Monarchy future? I see it black, very black, and not only in Spain. Royals are lacking their duties, and doing whatever they want...and if they wants to do something good to their peoples, they can't. They could be turned away from their throne, since they are not "political power" any more.

Royals could be seen mainly in beaches, parties and reading speaches for suposedly caritative purposes (speaches written by third persons), and leaving a life that could be the one of "the-next-door-boy or girl". Monarchy has lost all the charisma and powerful magic it had. And this is in every country of the world, but three or four.
Im not going into comparing other royals with the spanish, but what you have mentioned is not the case of the Spanish royals. Felipe & Letizia work very hard, they harldy have time for themselves. They are maybe one of the only royals that dont attened formal functions such as birthdays, weddings of other royals due to the fact that they have to be in Spain on duty.

The only time they get with the family is their summer break end of july-aug. imo, that is fair. Everyone needs a breal, everyone has the right to attened parties and have a good time. can you imagine being at work with not time to yourslef?!
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  #191  
Old 08-01-2007, 07:46 AM
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The only time they get with the family is their summer break end of july-aug. imo, that is fair. Everyone needs a breal, everyone has the right to attened parties and have a good time. can you imagine being at work with not time to yourslef?!
I would rather call it working vacations. At least they have to pose for pics and are constantly followed by the media while doing things that can be related to vacation. Maybe they have one or two weeks per year out of the public eye, that's it. Even if it's sponsored by the taxpayer I woundn't want to swap as for some members it can be seen as a poor compensation for a non existent privacy, but that's part of the package.
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  #192  
Old 08-02-2007, 02:01 AM
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El Semanal Digital

The Prince is untouchable but he can even kill

The article talks about the privileges of the Spanish Royal Family, they have a kinda impunity that's something that hasn't even seen in Primo de Rivera's time
Every bad thing said about the monarchy can be prosecuted by the Supreme Court, so I guess that's why we don't see much critics on the Spanish Media about the Royal Family


I don't think this is healthy, the Royal Family shouldn't have this kind of over-the-law protection, it doesn't help much the freedom of speech and gives a distorted image of the real state of the family

The Spanish Constitution releases the Monarch of all responsability, he can murder and cannot be prosecuted by the law
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  #193  
Old 08-02-2007, 02:29 AM
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The United Kingdom, for one.

The Sovereign enjoys immunity from criminal prosecution, as justice is supposed to flow from the Crown and be administered in Her Majesty's name. It would be contrary to the dignity of the position to have the "Fount of Justice" subject to criminal process. However, this immunity does not extend to other members of the Royal Family.

In some other countries, the Sovereign is deemed to be sacred and inviolable, which is pretty much the same thing.

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  #194  
Old 08-02-2007, 02:51 AM
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The only difference that I see is that the Spanish Constitution was made to fit King Juan Carlos, when Franco died, he was given almost absolute power and he made a referendum for a Constitution on his terms

So I guess it's a little different when you have made the laws to your liking than being in a country that has had the same law for hundreds of years, like it happens on the united kingdom

I like King Juan Carlos, I really do and I understand his position and his importance in the course of the Spanish transition, but this is something I don't agree with

I get the part where cartoons are not always clever or nice, but no one should go to jail for it, specially when the cartoon is not about the King, who's the only inviolable of the family (at least on the Constitution terms)

Spain is a very diverse country with several "cultures" and languages and lifestyles, the Monarch should be a uniting figure and it cannot be accomplished if the Monarch is above the law that keeps the country together, Juan Carlos gained his position at lauching spanish democracy, but Felipe needs to gain his own and with that "I'm over the law" thing I don't think he'll get as much done as if he was under the law that rules the country he's bound to rule one day

I hope my rambling makes sense
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  #195  
Old 08-02-2007, 04:51 AM
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In general I think the Head of State should have a special protection but not members of the family. Just thinking Spain was a republic, would people accept that Zap's children had these kind of privileges?

So I think it's fine that there is a law to protect JC - whatever content and not based on what he has done for Spain so far - but it should in no way apply to Felipe and the family.

I think when Felipe will take over from JC his rights will be cut anyway or at least there will be some changes to his positon, it will be weakened, similar to the UK, once QEII has gone and Prince Charles will take over.
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  #196  
Old 08-04-2007, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
In general I think the Head of State should have a special protection but not members of the family. Just thinking Spain was a republic, would people accept that Zap's children had these kind of privileges?

So I think it's fine that there is a law to protect JC - whatever content and not based on what he has done for Spain so far - but it should in no way apply to Felipe and the family.

I think when Felipe will take over from JC his rights will be cut anyway or at least there will be some changes to his positon, it will be weakened, similar to the UK, once QEII has gone and Prince Charles will take over.
Coincidentally exactly the same discussion was going on in the Netherlands media, yesterday. In an opinion article on Crimen læsæ Maiestatis, a prominent juridician and expert on the monarchy asked why insults to The King should be punished more than insults to others?

In the Netherlands Penal Code The King, the spouse of The King, the Prince of Orange, the spouse of the Prince of Orange and the Regent are protected by three articles on Crimen læsæ Maiestatis.

But it soon turned out that the vast majority in the States-General (Parliament) refused to change anything at all concerning these articles: "It is not about insulting a Mrs. Van Oranje-Nassau. It is about insulting the Head of State. Symbol for everything the Netherlands wants to be: a decent country where people treat each other with respect."

Let me translate this to the Spanish situation: "It is not about insulting a Mr. de Borbón y Borbón. It is about insulting the Head of State. Symbol for everything Spain wants to be: a decent country where people treat each other with respect."

And then about the three other members of the royal family: the spouse of The King, the Heir and the spouse of the Heir: the vast majority in Parliament has understanding for the difference in penalty when they are insulted, due to the ministerial responsiblity these members of the Royal House can not defend themselves .

The Constutution of the Kingdom of the Netherlands says in article 42:

(1) The Government shall comprise of The King with the Ministers.

(2) The King is inviolable. The ministers are responsible.

Only the King is named. Not his spouse, not the Prince of Orange and not the spouse of the Prince of Orange. But in the jurisprudence and in common law they have 'extended' this protection to these three persons who are close to article 42, being the spouse of The King, the future King and the spouse of the future King. The position of Queen Beatrix, being an integral part of the Government, is politically more prominent that that of King Juan Carlos I, who is no member of Government:

Article 56 of the Spanish Constitution:

The King is the Head of State, the symbol of its unity and permanence. He arbitrates and moderates the regular functioning of the institutions, assumes the highest representation of the Spanish State in international relations, especially with the nations of its historical community, and exercises the functions expressly attributed to him by the Constitution and the laws.

and

The person of the King is inviolable and is not subject to responsibility. His acts shall always be in the manner established in Article 64 and shall lack validity without that countersignature.

The King of Spain has almost no any own freedom to breathe, if we compare that with his Dutch colleague, therefore the protection the State offers him (and extended to his spouse, the Heir and the Heir's spouse) is logical.

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  #197  
Old 08-04-2007, 08:08 PM
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Im not going into comparing other royals with the spanish, but what you have mentioned is not the case of the Spanish royals. Felipe & Letizia work very hard, they harldy have time for themselves. They are maybe one of the only royals that dont attened formal functions such as birthdays, weddings of other royals due to the fact that they have to be in Spain on duty.

The only time they get with the family is their summer break end of july-aug. imo, that is fair. Everyone needs a breal, everyone has the right to attened parties and have a good time. can you imagine being at work with not time to yourslef?!
I did not make names, for comparisons are always dangerous and not very delicate. It should be extremely ugly to start saying: these are good, but these are bad...these are this and these others are that...And of course, I do not excpect that people works all year in a row without a break to enjoy themselves! I was not saying this. I was speaking about frivolity and also about living in a "too commoner way". Monarchy is a delicated balance and it is very hard to be a very good aristocrat. There are some of them here and there, but it should be undelicate for the others to give their names...Hope you may understand what I am saying.

Vanesa.
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  #198  
Old 08-05-2007, 05:38 AM
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Well, I hope Spanish monarchy will remain but we can never tell 20 years from now. So far no country has been restored back to Monarchy so I think monarchies are quite unstable. It only lies on the amount of support from their countrymen after all they're the one who can decide if they want to continue monarchy or change to other form of government. I think the strong contenders of keeping monarchy alive are Monaco and Luxembourg. IMO these countries are very attched to their RF. Well mostly because MOnaco's RF owns half of the country... In case of Spain, the situation is very complex. Anti-monarchist are visible. Has there been any country under monarchy who is on the same ground as Spain? I mean there's a 50/50 chance?
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  #199  
Old 08-05-2007, 05:43 AM
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So far no country has been restored back to Monarchy so I think monarchies are quite unstable.
Spain did. In 1975.

Cambodia did. In 1993.



And about the unstability of monarchies: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, etc. happen to be amongst the world's wealthiest nations, with the mest social security system, the best health care, the best education, where prosperity and peace flourishes and where democracy and tolerance is deeply rooted. Also these nations happen to be giving the most liberal freedom and equality to men and women, to gays, to free speech, whatever.

Most likely these monarchies belong to the most stable, reliable and trustworthy states in the entire world!
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:25 PM
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One of the most known cases of regime inestability was France between the last part of the XVIII Century and the 1870's. There was a Republic, then an Empire then a Kingdom then an Empire again, then a Kingdom, then a Republic, then an Empire, then a Republic....

Things are not extatics, God thanks, and maybe we may have Kingdoms in ancient Republics. But we also may have Republics in ancient Kingdoms if we don't care Monarchies...

Vanesa.
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