The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1121  
Old 10-02-2017, 11:28 AM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 2,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post

Catalonia and its referendum are an internal matter of the country.
It's not just an internal matter. The inhabitants of Catalonia, like all Spaniards, are citizens of the European Union and thereby the union is responsible for protecting their rights even, at times, against their own national government.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1122  
Old 10-02-2017, 11:31 AM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 3,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
His Majesty is hardly likely to favour the dissolution of his Kingdom, is he ?
You conveniently left out the 'at all costs'.

Nobody would expect him to be in favour of the dissolution of his kingdom but most people would expect him to be against (and speak out about) brutal force against his own people!
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1123  
Old 10-02-2017, 11:33 AM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 2,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
The results of yesterday's referendum are not reliable, about 90% of people embracing independence is to laugh.
According to Swedish media sources yesterday 90% of those who voted wants independence but the same sources also states that only about 43% of the population voted.
Reply With Quote
  #1124  
Old 10-02-2017, 11:37 AM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 3,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by lula View Post
The King's duty is to support the Constitution and the law.

Spain as every democracy has its laws, and laws are not changed at the whim of a minority. If they want referemdum and independence, they must obtain the necessary parliamentary support.

Another problem is that half of the Catalans do not want independence. The successive Catalan governments have been favorable to the independentist ideas, so these people, who are almost half of the population are quite abandoned and they are the silent part of this story, the millions who yesterday did not go to vote and that in their daily life are marked and called fascists for not defending independence.
If half of the population does not want independence than the referendum would not have been considered such a treat! If they had sticked to clearly denouncing the referendum as illegal but without the extreme repression that we have seen over the last few weeks with its climax yesterday the story would be very different.

The King's duty is also to represent and care for his people - including those that were brutally beaten by the police
Reply With Quote
  #1125  
Old 10-02-2017, 11:37 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: pinner, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,253
Quote:
most people would expect him to be against (and speak out about) brutal force against his own people!
It is inconceivable that the Kings are not both deeply distressed at the violence of yesterday, but as a Constitutional Monarch King Felipe can only speak and act as his government directs. He is NOT a private individual who can issue statements without ramifications for his nation or government...
Reply With Quote
  #1126  
Old 10-02-2017, 11:40 AM
Al_bina's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 8,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
It's not just an internal matter. The inhabitants of Catalonia, like all Spaniards, are citizens of the European Union and thereby the union is responsible for protecting their rights even, at times, against their own national government.
Catalonia is one of the provinces in Spain. At the same time, EU is not a full confederation yet. This means the Spanish laws still precede the EU ones.

The way the Spanish government has been dealing the situation is amateurish.
__________________
"I never did mind about the little things"
Amanda, "Point of No Return"
Reply With Quote
  #1127  
Old 10-02-2017, 11:44 AM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 3,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
According to Swedish media sources yesterday 90% of those who voted wants independence but the same sources also states that only about 43% of the population voted.
Yes, but it is important to consider how hard it was made to vote (closing polling stations up until taking the votes that were cast at some polling station - so actual turn out was higher); a turn out of 43% of people means that a huge part of the population was apparently willing (especially those in Barcelona) to be beaten to make their voice heard. So, I wouldn't say that 'only' 43% voted.

Of course, this referendum doesn't have any legitimacy but it should be a clear sign that something is going on and that some way of addressing these concerns needs to be found instead of a haughty dismissisal of 'a whim of the minority'.
Reply With Quote
  #1128  
Old 10-02-2017, 11:48 AM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 3,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
This is not going to affect in any way the image of the monarchy, this is another matter, and it is the monarchy that unites Spain at the moment and is the symbol of all of Spain.
Everyone who spoke out in favour of an independent Catalunya also spoke out in favour of becoming a republic as that was part of the question!

And the King is very much perceived as part of 'Madrid', so even though he already was unpopular in this part of the country, not speaking out against but previously supporting the actions of the government is another clear sign that he doesn't care about them (at least that is how it will be interpreted).
Reply With Quote
  #1129  
Old 10-02-2017, 11:49 AM
lula's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: , Spain
Posts: 19,479
On the "votes" of yesterday, everything was totally illegal and embarrassing... there was no census, there was no control, the press recorded a woman who came to an electoral college with a ballot box full of votes before starting the voting, there are photographs of children voting, there are people who voted up to four times in different places, people could print their ballot at home or vote in the street ... The numbers of the government of Catalonia are not serious, they even announced them before finishing the voting.

Duke, it was not just Madrid. Spanish cities, from north to south, were filled with Spanish flags and on Saturday there were demonstrations in support of the unity of Spain even in Barcelona.

Many Spaniards are tired, and feel their rights are worth less. Precisely that is one of the problems, that many national political parties know that the speech with which they win votes in Catalonia, causes to lose votes in other regions of Spain ... and the other way around.
Reply With Quote
  #1130  
Old 10-02-2017, 11:54 AM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 3,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
The statement from the EU commission, and a map which probably explains its stance...
Trusting the PM's leadership in this process is laughable as he has just shown to handle it extremely badly not holding back on the use of violence (which was condemned in the previous sentence) but instead justifying it as appropriate.

Furthermore, that map does represent regions where there are some separatist movements but that does not mean that all these regions truly want to become independent only that sometimes a very small minority wants (a little) more autonomy (some explicitly state that they do not aim for full independence). Only very few of these regions have separatist movements that represent a large part of the population (for example Scotland, the Basque Country and Catalunya). So, using these maps to justify their stance is misleading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
It is inconceivable that the Kings are not both deeply distressed at the violence of yesterday, but as a Constitutional Monarch King Felipe can only speak and act as his government directs. He is NOT a private individual who can issue statements without ramifications for his nation or government...
If they truly wanted to they would be able to find some kind of formula to still clearly back up the idea of a united Spain while also showing some compassion for those hurt yesterday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lula View Post
On the "votes" of yesterday, everything was totally illegal and embarrassing... there was no census, there was no control, the press recorded a woman who came to an electoral college with a ballot box full of votes before starting the voting, there are photographs of children voting, there are people who voted up to four times in different places, people could print their ballot at home or vote in the street ... The numbers of the government of Catalonia are not serious, they even announced them before finishing the voting.
You can hardly blame the organizers of the referendum for that! Except for those who want to use it all for their political gain (and I am sure there a quite a few of them including the region's president), I am sure most voters would rather have voted in a more orderly manner to make their voice heard but the actions of the central government made that impossible.
Reply With Quote
  #1131  
Old 10-02-2017, 12:10 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: pinner, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,253
Quote:
So, using these maps to justify their stance is misleading.
They would [probably] use these maps to 'justify their stance'.. I dislike the EU intensely and are delighted my country will no longer be a member, so i'm certainly no apologist for them....
Reply With Quote
  #1132  
Old 10-02-2017, 12:11 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 3,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by lula View Post
Many Spaniards are tired, and feel their rights are worth less.
You have expressed this sentiment before and even though I lived in Spain several years ago I don't fully understand. Could you elaborate because I am really curious to why their wish (and also a few other regions) for independence makes the rights of other Spaniards worthless? Is it because the government has been giving in to some of their requests in the hopes of keeping them as part of Spain? And if so, would independence not be a solution as their privileges would be completely abolished if they were no longer a part of the country?

[Again, I am not advocating for independence, just for them (and other groups - another relevant example are the Kurds) to be listened to including a reasonable (careful with high demands and safeguards against misuse) path to independence if that truly were the wish of the people. I don't think upholding a nation in its current form (which is always the result of a long process throughout history including many changes over the years and sometimes very arbitrary - think about African countries -) should be the end-all.]

Mods, sorry if we are going too much off-topic. Although I do think the political implications of this whole process impact on the future of the Spanish monarchy. If there is a different topic in which the current situation in Spain should be discussed please let us know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
They would [probably] use these maps to 'justify their stance'.. I dislike the EU intensely and are delighted my country will no longer be a member, so i'm certainly no apologist for them....
I was in no way suggesting that you were justifying or apologizing for them - you were clearly just presenting the EU statement; sorry if that wasn't clear
Reply With Quote
  #1133  
Old 10-02-2017, 01:56 PM
Duke of Marmalade's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
TRF Author
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Posts: 13,582
Quote:
Originally Posted by lula View Post
On the "votes" of yesterday, everything was totally illegal and embarrassing... there was no census, there was no control, the press recorded a woman who came to an electoral college with a ballot box full of votes before starting the voting, there are photographs of children voting, there are people who voted up to four times in different places, people could print their ballot at home or vote in the street ... The numbers of the government of Catalonia are not serious, they even announced them before finishing the voting.

Duke, it was not just Madrid. Spanish cities, from north to south, were filled with Spanish flags and on Saturday there were demonstrations in support of the unity of Spain even in Barcelona.

Many Spaniards are tired, and feel their rights are worth less. Precisely that is one of the problems, that many national political parties know that the speech with which they win votes in Catalonia, causes to lose votes in other regions of Spain ... and the other way around.
thanks for your view, lula.
if this was the result the catalan politicians wanted, why did Rajoy walk straight into the trap of providing the pictures of bullying and violent behaviour by spanish riot police.
does the rest of spain condone this kind of violence because the catalan cause is illegal?
Reply With Quote
  #1134  
Old 10-02-2017, 04:15 PM
lula's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: , Spain
Posts: 19,479
Podemos and the people who follow them are the hardest condemning the police action... but they come from citizen movements and anti-system ... so they hate the police. They criticize the Spanish government ... but do not criticize that the Catalan government violates the laws and tries to silence the opposition and half the Catalan population ... is electoral strategy.

Among the rest of the people there are opinions for everything, people obviously do not like to see these images ... but they also do not like the illegal Catalan government, its police, the families who used their children or those who went to vote knowing the orders of the judge.

Many people think that nobody acted totally well... but probably the opinion is that the fault is more of the politicians, than of the police. While the army and the police are always the most bloated institutions in Spain, politicians are always at the bottom of the list.

The presence of the police and the Civil Guard in Catalonia or the Basque Country is little, because they have their own police. And the rest of Spain knows perfectly well that their work in these regions is not easy and that many times they are attacked. Many young spanish policemen are going to work in these regions because they know they offer them a better salary, but they only work there for a few years, because life is not very pleasant.
Reply With Quote
  #1135  
Old 10-02-2017, 05:29 PM
Mademoiselle Lilo's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: T/H, Morocco
Posts: 9,232
i think every country have their laws that sould be respected this referendum is illegal sure there is other ways to solve the problem other than confrontation that i thin the separatists catalonians was looking for however violance isn't the answeer and that will make situation even worst as it's apparently what happen now in Catalunia,i've read that the ones who call for indepentendce are minority now alot of ppl changing their views,maybe the King should interfere as i don't see Mr Rajoy handling it right Imo.
Reply With Quote
  #1136  
Old 10-03-2017, 01:37 PM
ANNIE_S's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: -, Spain
Posts: 3,694
The King to address the nation at 21:00 pm today

https://twitter.com/el_pais/status/915253063795007488
https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/03/c...rno_rsoc=TW_CM

About **** time, I'd say

Also, things look worse at each hour. I never thought this could go this far, tbh...
__________________
Palaces are not the ones that dignify kings; kings are the ones who honor them with their presence.
Isabel, ep. 26

Vote in TRF Fashion Polls!


Reply With Quote
  #1137  
Old 10-03-2017, 01:47 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: pinner, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,253
In THE most critical speech of his reign, I hope the King can help 'bind the wounds' of his nation, and inspire his compatriots to solve this intractable issue.

I wish him good fortune tonight.
Reply With Quote
  #1138  
Old 10-03-2017, 01:57 PM
ANNIE_S's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: -, Spain
Posts: 3,694
I think he can only speak as the government tell him to.

I also think that what he'll say tonight may condition the future of his reign and the monarchy for better or worse which, given the first fact, is discouraging.
Reply With Quote
  #1139  
Old 10-03-2017, 02:01 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 3,788
Quote:
Originally Posted by ANNIE_S View Post
I think he can only speak as the government tell him to.

I also think that what he'll say tonight may condition the future of his reign and the monarchy for better or worse which, given the first fact, is discouraging.
My take would be that he can only say what the governments approves of; I would sincerely hope that it is not the PM who writes the speech for him, but I am sure he'll have to approve it (but those are two distinct matters). And yes, the future of the monarchy (probably not short-term but in the long haul) is at stake.
Reply With Quote
  #1140  
Old 10-03-2017, 02:04 PM
Duke of Marmalade's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
TRF Author
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Posts: 13,582
He will stress the unity of Spain and hopefully condemn violence for any side.

I guess there needs to be a moderator, is there any figure in Spain who has a moral authority and is trusted to be impartial?
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
catalonia, future of the monarchy, juan carlist, juan carlos i, royalist, spain, spanish nobility, spanish royal family


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 5 (0 members and 5 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Future of the Danish Monarchy Empress Royal House of Denmark 735 12-18-2019 02:00 AM
Future of the Belgian monarchy Marengo Royal Family of Belgium 118 01-24-2018 10:35 PM
Future of the Dutch Monarchy Marengo Dutch Royals 39 11-29-2017 10:53 AM
Marriage Between Two Heirs? BritishRoyalist General Royal Discussion 41 07-30-2014 10:23 AM




Popular Tags
administrator archie mountbatten-windsor aristocracy bangladesh belgian royal belgian royal family crown prince hussein's future wife crusades current events cypher danish royalty denmark duchess of cambridge duchess of sussex duke of sussex dutch royal family dutch royals family search french royalty friendly city future future wife of prince hussein germany hamdan bin mohammed house of bernadotte house of grimaldi israel jerusalem jumma kent king philippe lithuania lithuanian palaces mbs meghan markle monaco royal monarchist monarchy mountbatten netflix nobel prize norway history official visit pakistan popularity prince charles prince daniel prince harry princely family of monaco princess benedikte princess margaret pronunciation qe2 queen mathilde queen paola rania of jordan romanov family rown royal tour spanish royal state visit state visit to denmark sweden swedish history thailand trump united kingdom valois visit from sweden working royals; full-time royals; part-time royals;


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:22 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020
Jelsoft Enterprises
×