Future and Popularity of the Spanish Monarchy


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How will now the situation of the Spanish monarchy?
 
Only one engagement announced so far for next week and its a solo one for the queen,the King under more normal circumstance would preside over this act.
 
Rajoy just announced the meassures adopted through the article 155 application: the regional parlament of Catalonia is SUSPENDED and regional elections called for December 21.

Good luck to the Catalan government trying to convince the world they are a nation oppressed by a dictatorial state now :whistling:

Of course is a risky decision. The pro-independence coalition could win the elections...but they are very weakened by the recent affairs, I'm pretty sure this is what all the hurry for elections from Madrid is about.
 
I have often wondered what would happen if a modern monarchy like the Spanish monarchy were be done away with? Would they have to find other homes? How much money would they lose? Could they still live in the country? I have wondered also what would happen if the British Royal family were ever "voted out" by Republicanism. Would they still be rich? These are just things I wonder about.
 
I suspect that the SRF would, like many monarchies in Europe, actually struggle in some ways. Like many other monarchies much of their supposed wealth is actually owned by the State and so not the RF's own to walk away with. I guess a lot of the questions duchessrachel asks would depend on why and how the monarchy was 'done away with'.
 
duchessrachel said:
I have often wondered what would happen if a modern monarchy like the Spanish monarchy were be done away with? Would they have to find other homes? How much money would they lose? Could they still live in the country? I have wondered also what would happen if the British Royal family were ever "voted out" by Republicanism. Would they still be rich? These are just things I wonder about.
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My understanding is the Spanish royal family lives in properties owned by the Spanish state so if they were told to vacate by a theoretical republican government they'd have to leave. As Spanish citizens they could still live in Spain but it's hard to imagine they would, at least for a time. They'd keep their private financial assets. I suspect Felipe, along with Elena and Cristina, will receive a sizeable inheritance from Juan Carlos and Sofia - not the crazy amount of money that it's sometimes rumored JC has stashed away, but enough that the three children along with their children will always live well, regardless of what happens with the monarchy, and that's before you get into the social and business connections the family has. So certainly no one would starve.

It would be much the same with the British royals except they do have significant private property in the UK.

The above all assumes a reasonably orderly transition to a republic.
 
duchessrachel said:
I have often wondered what would happen if a modern monarchy like the Spanish monarchy were be done away with? Would they have to find other homes? How much money would they lose? Could they still live in the country? I have wondered also what would happen if the British Royal family were ever "voted out" by Republicanism. Would they still be rich? These are just things I wonder about.
Click to expand...

The British, Dutch and, to a lesser extent, Swedish royal families are personally wealthy. Many of their assets are privately owned or are held in familiy trusts that would revert to the trustees (rather than the State) if they were ever dissolved. So , I believe they'd be OK at least for a few generations. unless the republic somehow decided to expropriate them (e.g. by exiling them and confiscating the assets held by the family in the country).

The Spanish royal family, on the other hand, is not, I believe, particularly wealthy. When Spain became a republic in the 1930s and the royal family went into exile, they either lost or had to sell many of their assets for cash (Queen Ena's extensive jewelry collection for example was greatly depleted). I believe they would struggle if Spain became a republic.
 
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ANNIE_S said:
Rajoy just announced the meassures adopted through the article 155 application: the regional parlament of Catalonia is SUSPENDED and regional elections called for December 21.

Good luck to the Catalan government trying to convince the world they are a nation oppressed by a dictatorial state now :whistling:

Of course is a risky decision. The pro-independence coalition could win the elections...but they are very weakened by the recent affairs, I'm pretty sure this is what all the hurry for elections from Madrid is about.
Click to expand...


I don't see how elections could solve the problem at this point. The self-proclaimed Catalan republic has called elections for a National Assembly to draft a new constitution, while the Spanish government has called elections for a new Catalan parliament under the Spanish constitution. Local authorities (mayors, etc.), who would be largely responsible for running the elections, are divided between those who have sworn allegiance to the republic and those who remain loyal to the Spanish State and the King. I assume that each side will simply boycott the other side's election unless the Spanish State resorts to physical coercion to prevent any new "illegal" election from being organized by the separatists.

The Spanish government has actually dug a hole for itself out of which it is now impossible to climb. Had the Spanish government agreed to a Scottish-style, free and fair non-binding referendum two years ago or so, the separatists would have lost by a 55-60/45-40 margin and the Catalan issue would have been settled at least for another generation. Now, following Rajoy's heavy-handed approach and the suspension of the regional government of Catalonia, support for independence and the republic must have probably hardened in Catalonia. Rather than calling elections, when there are no conditions on the ground to hold them, the national parties in the Spanish parliament should offer concrete proposals for constitutional reform, including a new status for Catalonia as a distinct nation within the Kingdom of Spain.
 
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....the Spanish parliament should offer concrete proposals for constitutional reform, including a new status for Catalonia as a distinct nation within the Kingdom of Spain.
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A distinct nation nation in deed with its own beating heart, hard working culture and language that has been tested through the centuries and survived all the Castilian storms unlike the Borbon kings who tend to get pushed from time to time out by their own people.
 
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Thousands march in Barcelona against Catalonia independence

 
:previous:

Apparently more than a million people showed up to demonstrate for unity.
 
For many years, the nationalists parties have benefited from the huge abstention in regional elections and the absence of a common non nationalist front. This time, however, that may change. They have just gone too far. The non nationalists catalans, that 'silent majority' now everybody invokes, may turn up in mass to vote. If the constitutional parties manage to form a coalition to get the current pro-independence coalition out from the government, I think they may have a realistic chance to win.

I don't know where the impression of the independentism winning support due to recent events comes from. The impression we have here is actually the contrary. Yes, the images of violence were certainly something to have in mind, but that was an only day and it's been a month since. Probably outside Spain that's just what remains form the Catalan issue but many days have passed since and many, many things have happened and the Catalans have seen every and each one and suffered a fear to the inmediate future as little could have even imagine just a month ago. The 2000 companies and banks that have already left and the ones (the super important SEAT without who the inmediate future of the supposed new republic could look very, very dark) that could do so soon, the absolute non-support from foreign countries, the now very clear fact that they'll be out from the EU, Schengen etc at the very moment they are recognized (and the fact that, if Catalonia is still working in normality today is precisely because to all effects and to everybody they continue to be a part of Spain)... Pretty much that everything what the nationalist leaders promised for years that could never happened, have arised inmediately as soon as they have been put on the edge. Plus, the same leaders that now ask for rebellion to the Catalan civil servants, voted the supposed independence in secret, didn't actually proclaimed it, in any document, in any speech and have not make any gesture that can mean they have done so, as to retire the Spanish flag from public buildings, because they KNOW they have no support and will be taken to court, and any of those gestures us enough to condemn them and they are just not going to face their acts consequences.

I know people's ideas are important and many find hard to renounce to them, but there is a limit when you're at the edge and your leaders are obviously and blatantly lying to you.

In addition to all that, the Pro-independence coalition is also in crisis, as everybody could have guess given the circumstances, with half of the government wanting to go for independence not matter what and half wanting to go backwards out of fear, so it's not really the best elections moment for them.

There is now only a way to know what's the current way of thinking of the Catalans as a whole and that's the elections. If in these circumstances, the pro-independence still wins, the Spanish State will obviously have to think on a legal referendum. But as things are today, it would be completely unresponsible to let them guide all of Catalan people to disaster with not even a clear majority on opinion or parlament. Fair elections are the only way to solve this matter for once and I really hope every Catalan will go to the polling station on December to make his voice clear. They now have a real chance.
 
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ANNIE S, Thank you so very much for your insight to your country's situation. It is so very important for us to learn the exact situation from a citizen that is of your country. Everyone else only gets what their own country's media wants them to know or from the relative or friend that has a personal agenda. You on the other hand have shown the clear facts as only a citizen living there can. I hope your country straightens this huge problem soon and the your lovely country can relax and go on to a bright and brilliant future. Prayers to all your citizens
 
Is there, in your opinion, a divide in Catalonia between the ethnic Catalonians and other inhabitants of the region regarding support for independence?
 
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I haven’t been following closely this past week, but we’ve had a fair amount of media coverage today.
Our reporters in Barcelona are saying that Puigdemont fleeing to Belgium has hit his party hard and that many of his supporters are very unhappy with him. Also, the Catalan regional police is apparently enforcing the Spanish laws and the ‘white strike’ announced for civil servants had almost no support.
 
People who support the independence of Catalonia are disillusioned with Puigdemont, for fled to Belgium. The Catalans are divided between those who want independence and those who advocate the unity of Spain. It is expected that everything will be resolved in the elections of December 21.
 
Well it's nice that it's just about at 2 out of 3 Spaniards supporting the good ol Bourbon Dynasty but I just can't help but think the republicans will just take out their dusty and stupid red, yellow and purple flags and complain about something like the king having to pick up his hat due to the wind blowing it off his head. I mean the republicans complain about a "lack of democracy" and corruption and you never see these guys protesting at the parliament or anything, do they honestly think that complaining about a kind-hearted and caring figurehead and father will score them any points what so ever.

I think I pretty much brought silence to this thread here. To think it would be rather busy here with the whole attempt at a Republic of Catalonia thing. In all seriousness I do believe the monarchy is slowly and thankfully recovering and for that I am happy and I hope Catalonia doesn't interfere with that.

-Frozen Royalist

P.S. Does anyone actually like the Spanish Republican flag, I mean it would be nice for a national flag to have purple but still, I just feel my blood boil whenever I see the darn piece of fabric.
 
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An interesting spin of the Times, a majority of 5 seats in a parliament of 135 is hardly a 'sweep'.
 
It was very difficult in two months, they could change what the independentists have taken to get 40 years and millions of euros in public money.

The Catalan society is still split in half, the separatists win again in seats in Parliament, but not in votes, for an electoral law that they have never wanted to change (in most of the Spanish regions have changed) because it favors them.

But for the first time a national political and Constitutionalist party, Ciudadanos, has won the elections in Catalonia.

These months the independentists have continued in their bubble and have exploited their role as victims ... but now they will definitely have to face the results of their actions.

Several of their deputies are in jail or fled from justice and can not vote. They continue in their attempt to extort the Spanish state, without understanding that justice will continue with its work independently of politics.

Catalan policy will remain blocked in that loop without solving the real problems of citizens, and its economic crisis with the flight of companies, the loss of employment and tourism will continue.

We will see how long it takes for the Catalans to vote again.
 
I find it interesting that Puidgemont referred to the elections yesterday as a victory of the "Catalan republic" over the "Spanish monarchy". Likewise, several separatist politicians who spoke yesterday on Spanish TV consistently referred to the unionist camp as the "monarchist bloc", which is a term BTW that is also used by the non-separatist, but nevertheless pro-Republic party Podemos.

In other words, it seems to me that the separatists are now framing the issue in Catalonia not only as a contest between independentists and unionists, but also as a choice between a republic and the continuation of the monarchy, The monarchy therefore has become a central issue in the Catalan debate on par with the union properly, which is now seen as inherently associated with the monarchy, especially after King Felipe's televised speech earlier this year.
 
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:previous: There has no doubt always been a considerable republican sentiment against the monarchy in the Catalan independence movement.
That's partly logic, because an independent Catalonia can't have the Spanish King as head of state, that would sort of defeat the purpose. So by necessity the movement would have to be republican.

Another things is that loyalty to the King almost also means loyalty to the union so to speak with the rest Spain.
So per definition monarchists are also anti-independence.

The third thing is that the independence movement needs to put a face on the opposition. Politicians come and go, even if the policy in regards to Catalonia remains more or less the same. But the King stay. So the King is a logic figure to direct the antagonism against.

And finally there is the fact that the King actually did speak against the independence movement, and in no uncertain terms.
 
The Catalan separatists have been attacking the Monarchy for years, it's nothing new. The monarchy is an excuse, they attack the Monarchy as a symbol of the State, because they believe that without the Monarchy their victory would be easier. The King is a more potent symbol than any politician.

It is also an attempt to bring the republican vote of Podemos that can give them the majority. Nor is it a secret of Podemos wants the Republic, and that attacks the monarchy or hides its attacks against it, according to its electoral interests. Their results in Catalonia have been bad, and their support in the rest of Spain is decreasing ... so if it suits them they will hide their attacks on the Monarchy again.
 
Muhler said:
:previous: There has no doubt always been a considerable republican sentiment against the monarchy in the Catalan independence movement.
That's partly logic, because an independent Catalonia can't have the Spanish King as head of state, that would sort of defeat the purpose. So by necessity the movement would have to be republican.

Another things is that loyalty to the King almost also means loyalty to the union so to speak with the rest Spain.
So per definition monarchists are also anti-independence.

The third thing is that the independence movement needs to put a face on the opposition. Politicians come and go, even if the policy in regards to Catalonia remains more or less the same. But the King stay. So the King is a logic figure to direct the antagonism against.

And finally there is the fact that the King actually did speak against the independence movement, and in no uncertain terms.
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Scottish nationalism, however, has chosen a different approach. At least under Alex Salmond and now under Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP has said that an independent Scotland would remain a Kingdom in personal union with the monarch of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The most likely explanation is that, given QEIi's popularity i, the nationalists figured out it would be easier to win a referendum on independence if they didn't risk simultaneously antagonizing the monarchist electorate in the process.
 
Mbruno said:
Scottish nationalism, however, has chosen a different approach. At least under Alex Salmond and now under Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP has said that an independent Scotland would remain a Kingdom in personal union with the monarch of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The most likely explanation is that, given QEIi's popularity i, the nationalists figured out it would be easier to win a referendum on independence if they didn't risk simultaneously antagonizing the monarchist electorate in the process.
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That's no doubt correct.

It makes you wonder what will happen when Charles becomes king, will they change their stance?
That's of course off topic in this tread.
 
Mbruno said:
Scottish nationalism, however, has chosen a different approach. At least under Alex Salmond and now under Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP has said that an independent Scotland would remain a Kingdom in personal union with the monarch of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The most likely explanation is that, given QEIi's popularity i, the nationalists figured out it would be easier to win a referendum on independence if they didn't risk simultaneously antagonizing the monarchist electorate in the process.
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Scotland and England were separate countries with a shared monarch for a hundred years before they became one united country, and QEII is the Queen of sixteen different independent countries, so there's a precedent there. If she can be Queen if the UK, Queen of Australia, Queen of Canada, etc, why not have her be Queen of Scotland separate from the rest of the UK? At least in order to gain independence.

Spain's a bit different - while the country may have formed through the union of several kingdoms, Catalonia has a long history of being something distinct within something larger (be it Spain or Aragon), and King Felipe only reigns over one realm (Spain). The precedent for a Commonwealth of Realms isn't there, so there's more of a link between Republicanism and Independence in Catalonia than in Scotland.
 
Personally I think what the Kingdom of Spain needs is go from being a unitary state to a federal state just as the United Kingdom needs, I recommend Swiss style federalism.

Is anyone actually concerned about the Citizens Party, the reason I ask is because they have the highest approval ratings in the opinion polls for the next Spanish election in 2020. For those of you who don't know the Citizens Party does consider itself a republican party as well as a post-nationalist organization; this means that the Citizens Party would like to see a Third Spanish Republic that would rather be a global state in favor of supernationalism, as in something like a United States of Europe. So once again what do you think of the possibility of a Citizens Party Spain?

-Frozen Royalist
 
A little update on the Catalan issue: Politikere melder fra til Puigdemont: - Han har begået højforræderi - TV 2

As you probably know the leader of the Catalan separatists, Carles Puigdemont, is currently living in exile in Belgium.
Tuesday he will leave his exile for the first time to attend a debate a Copenhagen University.
It is one of the two Faeroese members of the Danish Parliament, who has invited Puigdemont to also visit the Parliament.

No members of the three Danish government parties will meet Puigdmont.
Henrik Dahl from Liberal Alliance says: "No, I won't (meet him). The Danish state communicate with the Spanish government in Madrid. He has committed high-treason".

Michael Aastrup Jensen from the Liberals says: "No. I'm not. If I did I would interfere with Spanish (domestic) affairs. To be honest I don't think we from the Danish Parliament should do that".

Naser Khader from the Conservatives says he hasn't got time.

These are the foreign affairs spokesmen from the government parties and they are the ones who would normally meet an opposition leader of a foreign country.
The various MP's have fairly free hands in inviting visitors to the Parliament, also controversial persons.
There is a considerable separatist movement on the Faeroe Islands, which is no doubt why the Faeroese member invited Puigdemont. But they have problems really selling the message of independence. Because the Danish governments have made it clear that the Faeroe Islands can have independence any time they want, provided there is a very clear majority. And the transition period will be max 4 years, after that the Faeroe Islands are to be considered a foreign country and Denmark will have no obligations in regards to upholding sovereignty, providing advanced hospital care, and education above high school level and so on for Faeroese citizens.
- That is not particularly palatable to the Faeroese...

It seems pretty clear there is no international warrant out for Puigdemont or that he must enjoy some kind of immunity supplied by the Belgian state? Also outside Belgium?

It will be interesting to see if Puigdemont will meet the Chairman of the Parliament or any members of the Presidium. I.e. second, third and so on chairmen.
 
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