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  #1  
Old 07-06-2006, 07:30 PM
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First of all I have to say that there is no need for telling ltd20 that the article posted by her is: “not very interesting” (=Adelaide) and “stupid” (=Lula) or that there is no “logical to put” him into this thread (CRIS). IMO you do yourself and Letizia no favour, if you protect her in this harsh way. TRF has many users - some of them are maybe interested in reading this article and you are not entitled to decide what ought to be posted here or what has to be of interest to the others. You have to accept that there are different points of views out there.

This article went through a bad translator and I don´t know if I understood it right. So to those who are Spanish: Does the article really state, that Felipe and Letizia were missing in Luxembourg? I read it this way: Felipe and Letizia had no arguments to refuse an invitation again. They had to travel to Luxembourg to silence the critical comments, since it is obvious that they were missing at many royal gatherings. If I got this right, I don´t see why this article should be completely wrong. Yes, it contains a lot of speculations but it reflects some well founded remarks too. Not everyone who doesn’t praise Letizia to the sky is per se a liar!

To level criticism at Letizia does not mean you are a “Letizia-hater” (@Lula). Those who criticise Letizia´s role are often disappointed to see her being minimized to her husband’s shadow. She was a successful anchorwoman and now you barley hear her voice. This is for sure due to the tradition of the Spanish court (and I admit I do not know much about this). But you have to raise to question, if this is the adequate role model for the 21st century. What does their way of sharing their work mean for the emancipation of the women in Spain? Would it hurt so much, if Letizia does some things on her own? I don´t think so.
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  #2  
Old 07-06-2006, 07:47 PM
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What happens is that to understand the article is necessary to know as this periodic digitalis acts; and on knowing many things. For that reason many of us know perfectly that this is false and is one criticizes absurd. Please you do not justify absurd resemblance. This article can not have more errors and lies. And as Spanish I know it very well.
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  #3  
Old 07-06-2006, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRIS
What happens is that to understand the article is necessary to know as this periodic digitalis acts; and on knowing many things. For that reason many of us know perfectly that this is false and is one criticizes absurd. Please you do not justify absurd resemblance. This article can not have more errors and lies. And as Spanish I know it very well.
It would be good see the different opinions of spanish people, and others. It would be a good discussion, if we all respect opinions.
IMO, the article could be or not false, but one thing i'm sure, if isn't too much is healthy be a protective mother. So the kids won't feel alone, but they won't feel they're "more than everything" and that they will always have everything, if you know what i mean :)
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  #4  
Old 07-06-2006, 08:39 PM
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Johhan I agree with you, sometimes I wish to gave my opinions about things I find wrong with this couple and I don't dare to do so, because is not the first time I'm feeling really bad about some answers I get from what I call Letizia's fan club.

Sometimes I wonder if she's human or not, she's perfect by all accounts, you can critizice other princess in other forums except Letizia, don't ask me why, criticize somebody or better, some actions of that person, or clothes etc and that doesn't means you hate that person.

To me the article is not stupid or a lie at all, in fact it is true that Felipe used to be really close with the rest of the royal families and since the wedding he's not, this is the second time in two years and two months they gather with other royals who are, after all, their colleagues, their counterparts, they should be like a family, in fact they are family w/ a lot of the royals houses; they are not godparents of any of the new babies on the royal houses, other princess have kids too and they managed to go to the gatherings (weddings, baptisms, anniversaries, birthdays), they have missed all, maybe the other new prince and princess won't ask them because they have isolated themself. I wont say they doesn't have a busy agenda inside Spain but they are first of all royals and I don't blame this publication for not to know, nobody in fact new Letizia and Felipe were (for not so long) in Luxembourg, even the most reliable magazines says that Elena and Marichalar were the representatives of the Spanish Royal House and being the Princes they should be the representants, my queen and king are not young anymore and they almost live in an airplane, representing in and out of Spain; when Letizia and Felipe did get marry every royal house were present, ruling or not, even though it was a complicated week in a complicated month, one week from the Denmark wedding, because after all our King and Queen are dearest and respected bye the other royal families; so those other royals deserve this couple to pay some respect back and be present in their weddings, their anniversaries, their baptisms, etc in reciprocity as well because those acts are important for the one who makes the invitation. So, what may be a stupidity and a lie for some, is true and fair for others, so don't judge for the rest please since everybody is entitle to their own opinions and every members is equal in importance.
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  #5  
Old 07-06-2006, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaniaRocks
Johhan I agree with you, sometimes I wish to gave my oppinions about things I find wrong with this couple and I don't dare to do so, because is not the first time I'm feeling really bad about some answers I get from what I call Letizia's fan club.
If you give your opinions, we all know what you think and put things clear
I think we should really say what we think. (for me, we can say whatever you want :p )

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaniaRocks
critizice somebody or better, some actions of that person, of clothes etc doesn't means hate that person.
In this point, you're totally right!! :)
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  #6  
Old 07-06-2006, 09:16 PM
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I think that what Johann and Rania Rocks (both of you please feel free to correct me) are trying to say is that they do not feel as comfortable expressing criticisms of Letizia because one critical comment, even something as simple as "I do not like Letizia's skirt," let alone something stronger such as "Letizia should be performing acts alone," results in a handful of members who are clearly Letizia fans bombarding the thread with comments about how "wrong" the critical member is or how their opinons are false because they do not know how things are in Spain.

Certainly we need to judge the actions of these individuals based on the expectations of their country and their respective courts, noting that all courts are different and handle matters differently, but that is not to say that judgement shouldn't exist at all, or that all bad actions of the Prince and Princess of Asturias for example, are because that's how Casa Real handles them.

As a moderator and a long-time member of this forum, even I have to say that while I like Letizia very much, there are times when criticisms are warranted or there are certain things this couple and this royal family does that I do not care for. But even I pause before posting as I do not want to be whacked by the "Love Letizia or Else" stick. And certainly, I'm sure that if a moderator feels this way others do as well.

I think that one can be a fan of a particular royal(s) but still see fault in them or criticize them. Criticism is not a bad thing. Criticism makes one reflect upon oneself and improve oneself. That is why many companies offer job evaluations of their workers -- not to make them feel bad about the job they are doing or to make them feel insecure about possibly losing their job, but so that they know what they are doing right and improve other aspects of their job performance.

If other members have concerns about how the Spanish forum is being moderated or have issues with certain postings, I encourage you to contact one of the Spanish forum members to discuss it with them. Like royals and other public figures, until other members tell us (the Moderating Team) what they like or don't like, agree or disagree with, we sometimes don't know. Sometimes moderating feels like it happens in a vacuume -- that is to say that we sometimes do it on autopilot or sometimes it feels like it happens in isolation when in fact that's not true. Moderating is something that happens on the whole, and we need to know what the whole thinks so that we can address the problems in the best possible manner.

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  #7  
Old 07-06-2006, 09:32 PM
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People should obviously feel free to be as critical or as supportive as they care to be, but I might recommend that those who wish to make serious and fact based critics keep in mind that elsemanaldigital should not be considered a reliable source. They have less than stelar sources and more often than not deal in unfounded gossip (regergitated at that), not fact (and not only when writing of Letizia, I might stress). They have a particular predilection for repeating German gossip and their articles (again, not only as regards Felipe and Letizia) have consistently been proven incorrect over time.

So for both those who wish to engage in healthy criticism of this couple, or those who wish the praise this couple, I suggest finding a better source than elsemanaldigital.
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Old 07-06-2006, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucys
People should obviously feel free to be as critical or as supportive as they care to be, but I might recommend that those who wish to make serious and fact based critics keep in mind that elsemanaldigital should not be considered a reliable source. They have less than stelar sources and more often than not deal in unfounded gossip (regergitated at that), not fact (and not only when writing of Letizia, I might stress). They have a particular predilection for repeating German gossip and their articles (again, not only as regards Felipe and Letizia) have consistently been proven incorrect over time.

So for those who wish to engage in healthy criticism I suggest finding a better source than elsemanaldigital.
I think the point isn't the source. But all the comments that come after some critics. I think that makes people feel bad and uncomfortable.
Because i think are some critics that don't need source, it's just an opinion.
Something like: "i don't like the skirt, but if it was yellow it will be better"
This is just an opinion, and i'm not saying this would make a confusion... this is just an example (the best thing i remember right now )
So, i think the most important isn't the source but the opinion and don't feel bad for giving it :)
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  #9  
Old 07-06-2006, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ...JuAnItA...
I think the point isn't the source. But all the comments that come after some critics. I think that makes people feel bad and uncomfortable.
Because i think are some critics that don't need source, it's just an opinion.
Something like: "i don't like the skirt, but if it was yellow it will be better"
This is just an opinion, and i'm not saying this would make a confusion... this is just an example (the best thing i remember right now )
So, i think the most important isn't the source but the opinion and don't feel bad for giving it :)
I meant nothings as regards any specific commentary or opinion made; rather, because an article has been posted from a particular source, I only meant to point out that the particular source, elsemanaldigital, is not a reliable source. That's all.
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  #10  
Old 07-06-2006, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaniaRocks
Johhan I agree with you, sometimes I wish to gave my opinions about things I find wrong with this couple and I don't dare to do so, because is not the first time I'm feeling really bad about some answers I get from what I call Letizia's fan club.

Sometimes I wonder if she's human or not, she's perfect by all accounts, you can critizice other princess in other forums except Letizia, don't ask me why, criticize somebody or better, some actions of that person, or clothes etc and that doesn't means you hate that person.

To me the article is not stupid or a lie at all, in fact it is true that Felipe used to be really close with the rest of the royal families and since the wedding he's not, this is the second time in two years and two months they gather with other royals who are, after all, their colleagues, their counterparts, they should be like a family, in fact they are family w/ a lot of the royals houses; they are not godparents of any of the new babies on the royal houses, other princess have kids too and they managed to go to the gatherings (weddings, baptisms, anniversaries, birthdays), they have missed all, maybe the other new prince and princess won't ask them because they have isolated themself. I wont say they doesn't have a busy agenda inside Spain but they are first of all royals and I don't blame this publication for not to know, nobody in fact new Letizia and Felipe were (for not so long) in Luxembourg, even the most reliable magazines says that Elena and Marichalar were the representatives of the Spanish Royal House and being the Princes they should be the representants, my queen and king are not young anymore and they almost live in an airplane, representing in and out of Spain; when Letizia and Felipe did get marry every royal house were present, ruling or not, even though it was a complicated week in a complicated month, one week from the Denmark wedding, because after all our King and Queen are dearest and respected bye the other royal families; so those other royals deserve this couple to pay some respect back and be present in their weddings, their anniversaries, their baptisms, etc in reciprocity as well because those acts are important for the one who makes the invitation. So, what may be a stupidity and a lie for some, is true and fair for others, so don't judge for the rest please since everybody is entitle to their own opinions and every members is equal in importance.
You are not alone. I have been "attacked" many times for expressing my opinions of Letizia. She is not perfect and I don't dislike her, but it seems that if you dare to give a negative comment you are single out. You are not alone!!!
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Old 07-06-2006, 11:32 PM
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Exactly my thoughts, Roxsteve. I've noticed this for a while. Why is every other princess/prince criticized civilly, but here no one can say anything negative at all. A lot of the Spanish RF fans can be extreme sometimes and that scares off all healthy conversation. Even sometimes saying things nicely or out of concern is enough to ignite some outrage here. The Spanish princes are human too, sometimes it seems that this fact is more welcome in other threads than in this one. Just my opinion.
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Old 07-07-2006, 12:32 AM
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I am so pleased to know that I am not the only one who hesitates to post a comment about F&L for fear of being "attacked." Just last week I referred to Letizia living in a gilded cage (not by her own making I'm sure) and it wasn't a critism. I got a comeback which made me feel as if I was being rapped on the knuckles. I love this couple.

Even though Letizia may have had a job where she was in the nation's eye does not mean that she would settle down immediately as being part of a Royal Family admired hugely by the Spanish and the rest of the world. She probably feels a bit threatened knowing that the eyes of the world is upon her, some even waiting for her to put a foot wrong. She may be very comfortable being at Felipe's side attending an official function instead of doing it alone and for this we have to respect her.

I would like to see them attend more Royal functions outside of Spain. But then again they have to be invited isn't it?

Got this off my chest.
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  #13  
Old 07-07-2006, 01:27 AM
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What is the point in being critical? Negative thoughts and words don't add to the discussion. We are not talking about precise science here. I personally don't enjoy negative discussions as we are talking about people that by birth or marriage are preserving the institution of monarchy. I enjoy the monarchy for its ties to the culture and traditions of the various countries. Negative comments about the royals involved adds no value - the royals are who they are and to tear them apart becaue they don't fit someone's idea what they should be or how they should look is of no interest to me. Perhaps I am in the minority but a positive outlook and opinion of others somehow make my days more pleasurable.
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Old 07-07-2006, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grevinnan
What is the point in being critical? Negative thoughts and words don't add to the discussion. We are not talking about precise science here. I personally don't enjoy negative discussions as we are talking about people that by birth or marriage are preserving the institution of monarchy. I enjoy the monarchy for its ties to the culture and traditions of the various countries. Negative comments about the royals involved adds no value - the royals are who they are and to tear them apart becaue they don't fit someone's idea what they should be or how they should look is of no interest to me. Perhaps I am in the minority but a positive outlook and opinion of others somehow make my days more pleasurable.
grevinnan, the point of this discussion is not to discuss how great it is to be critical. The point is that some members want to post things about Felipe and/or Letizia that are not 100% praises, but hesitate because of the lack of open-mindedness in the Spanish threads. Other points of view can help to create healthy discussions of what others feel and think. A lot of other members enjoy the monarchy for its culture and traditions also. And it seems that only praises are allowed for Felipe and Letizia; anything else is intolerable. Because of this, some of us feel that nothing negative or recontructive can be said about the said princes, not that we want to criticize them. No one is saying that we want to tear them apart for not being someone else. On the contrary, we want to give them a sense of individualism by discussing more open-minded topics, but sometimes it seems that this in not tolerated. Just because you really like this couple, does not mean that others cannot express other feelings for them. This is a forum, everyone should be allowed to express themselves without fear of being attacked by fellow royalists. And a mature poster should realize that not ALL members like his/her favorite royal. For example, I really like Mary and Mathilde, and there are some posters who sometimes say that they didn't like what they wore, or they are concerned about their activities. This is welcome because it adds flavor to the discussion on here. No one is saying that they don't like Felipe and/or Letizia. People just want to share their opinions, why is this not welcomed?
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Old 07-07-2006, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grevinnan
What is the point in being critical? Negative thoughts and words don't add to the discussion. We are not talking about precise science here. I personally don't enjoy negative discussions as we are talking about people that by birth or marriage are preserving the institution of monarchy. I enjoy the monarchy for its ties to the culture and traditions of the various countries. Negative comments about the royals involved adds no value - the royals are who they are and to tear them apart becaue they don't fit someone's idea what they should be or how they should look is of no interest to me. Perhaps I am in the minority but a positive outlook and opinion of others somehow make my days more pleasurable.
That would be true if here in the spanish forums there were never said a bad word about other, but so often in theese threads there are less than well disquised kicks at other royal houses, what their Princes do, how "little" they work how unimportant their work is (my favourite argument, just parades of fashion and baptising flowers), how they dear do their work wearing a Chanel jacket, and recently also Party hoppers and having to little "cache" compared to other royals.

Now this elsemana digital is obiously a ratty source, the author wont even put his name under the article and there are so many mistakes in the article, like Beatrix was there, Frederik and Mary always go to gether to evnts abroad, well Mary just went alone to Sweden, And Frederik has not been a guest much seen abroad the last two years either and so on...However I think that in a forum its nice to read both the articles praising the royals as well as those who are critical, and in pretty much all the other forums you can do this, but by reading theese threads in this forum you would think there were not a singel critical voice in the whole of Spain, which lets face it no monarchy has 100% support, and not all arguments for keeping it is good and not all the people who represent it is to everyones taste, they are people not saints after all. SO actually I dont mind that someone critisise the royals every now and then, recent example Laurant and his baby picture, Haakon and Mette-Marit and their summerhouse, Frederik and Mary and their spending, Charles and Camilla and god knows what they are not critisised for, Philippe not performing perfectly on trade missions. Someone might agree with the critisism, and some people might disagree, but that does not mean that those who agrees are always wrong or mean spirited or stupid or jealous

Other than that I agree 100% with Johanns more eloquent post:)
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:11 AM
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I believed that each one was free to express their opinion, but it seems to be that here it is not like that.

I have not said at all against whom has post the article, have said that the article is "stupid" .... because really I think that it is. It is a good example of evil journalism or of not journalism, totally lacking in information and manipulator. For example, the article was written yesterday, when the whole world had seen already the front page of the magazine Hola in Spain.

If the news had published a yellow magazine the whole world would say the same thing, in the forum of front pages of german magazines there are many and many commentaries laughing at them and saying that they are stupid.

I do not believe that in this forum we are different from others, here there have written persons those who like other Royal Houses, to writing barbarities. I if someone or I do not like anything, simply omit it, and do not devote myself to criticize them again and again. The objective critique is good and positive, but there is often that the critique turns in systematical because someone or you do not like anything.

Each one has his opinion, and I do not understand how here there are people who protests for some commentary on the Princess that she tastes and does not accepts that another person defends the one that she likes.


If I criticize to the article and to this digital newspaper it is because I know the way. Already several persons have commented that it is not a trustworthy way ... why? ... simply because they write any rumor, any not confirmed news. There are forums of cruel enough people where they devote themselves to invent rumors on Letizia, that they detach sometimes real hatred. This digital newspaper already had to deny a news that they had copied of someone who had invented it in one of these forums.

I speak about what I know and not about what I do not know, try to clarify the things that I know, but it seems that it is not possible to take the opposite one to anybody.

I know the Spanish press, and more this type of "pink" press, how all the Spanish know her already. Everything sells and everything is bought, is hard and cruel, and it they does not matter for whom they damage. But not only to the Princess of Asturias, but to many other famous prominent figures.
If it was commenting here how the death has been treated and the disease of the singer Rocío Jurado some of them would finish terrified.

I can criticize simply to a way that commits a mistake in a news. But to means trustworthy few ones, which they publish with impunity, which their articles do not sign and which they manipulate the reality will be criticized by me always with hardness, because it not and journalism it is not even an information.

Only an opinion I concern even commentary that I do not remember the one who has written. The obligation of the Royal Families is not to attend to royal parties, their obligation is to serve and work to defend the interests of their countries, other one is something secondary that will be done when one could . If they have an act before that they have promised and to go, they must not be absent. If the Prince has to be absent to a baptism because he has to travel to Latin America, he is absent. If no member of the Royal Family travels to Monaco, because the people and the Spanish diplomacy do not consider it to be opportune, it does not go.
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:27 AM
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I totally agree with everybody who feels "attacked" by making a "negative" post about F&L, to some people here they are perfection personified and anyone who disagrees is inmediately bashed by their fans or even worse given some sarcastic remarks which I personally find inmature and very childish...
This doesn't happen only here but in every other Spanish thread any time the Princes of Asturias are discussed...
I have to admit that I like Infanta Cristina and her family a lot and I've attacked others on their opinion on her, for that I apologize 'cuz I thought about it and it isn't worth it; why would we have to fight over other people's lives? do you think they care? it's not like they are family or something like that
Whether they are good, bad or whatever; we should give our opinions, if we have proof about what we say then we should post it here and just stand and enjoy the discussion, never to cause an argument because fights are boring and many TRF members have stopped coming to the Spanish forum due to this behavior from many members (including myself)...

Just post, see pics and enjoy; there are more important things in life than fighting for our favourite royals...
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Old 07-07-2006, 05:25 AM
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Seems I touched a sore spot. To clarify my position: I don’t like it when others tell me what I have to read or think. This is something I can decide on my own. You can try to convince me by arguing. But this is missing out here. This is why I posted my remarks. And the responses of others show, that I’m not the only one who has this view on your way of discussing. It doesn´t help when you characterize criticism as stupid or something like this. Why not take a breath and reply to critical remarks in a less hot-blooded way? Maybe this is just a “clash of temperaments” here and I am sure it wasn’t your intention to offend the others, but obviously many do not feel comfortable here - that’s a fact to think about.
And back to the article. It may not be 100% true and not 100% false, but at least it provides some remarkable points (= the obvious absence of Felipe at royal gatherings since his wedding).
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Old 07-07-2006, 05:29 AM
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I have been reading during some time your answers and believe that the every member takes his part of reason.

I would like to say that I am a total and unconditional fan of Felipe and Letizia and of the rest of the Spanish Royal Family. I understand that other members do not like Letizia or Felipe or admire other members of the royalty as Mary or Mathilde or Maxima, and certainly I understand that them, and it does not want to say that they should hate Felipe or Letizia... And all the members can express his opinions freely, because it is a fundamental right that all the members could say what they think without fear of being attacked later by that Rania Rokcs calls gracefully and affectionatly Letizia's Fan club.

For my part, please, never you feel badly for expressing your opinion, always wiil be good received .

It is true and it is enough to look at the activities of the Princes during these years, that almost there do not come to official acts with other royal families Europeas. In my opinion, this does not want to say that they should not be friends. For example, the King Juan Carlos, almost has not come to official acts with the Queen Elisabhet II, but I know that they every week speak for telephone to be greeted. We must not forget that he was the Prince Felipe he was whom present to Mary and Frederic and that Present to Hokom of Norway in it day to Eve Sanum and Felipe. And that supports a good relation with all of them.
For that they do not come to these official acts, it is a response that I believe that The Royal Household has great that to see.

I think that the Princes have many responsabilities and obligations that to attend, and it is normal that also they want to be father and mother and to want to attend to his private life. I suppose that in every week they want to have one two days to be with his baby.

On the supposed anger of the King for which Letizia does not come so much as the Prince to Latin America, I believe that does not sense what publishes the magazine. We must not forget that the one who is the Inheritor of the Wreath and Future Chief of the State is the Prince Felipe, Letizia is simply a consortt. For example, the one who speaks with the presidents newly chosen etc, is the Prince not Letizia.
For saying it otherwise, Letizia does not have any relevant role in the country, alone accompanist, therefore it dosn´t matters if she comes or not.

Letizia's life like the lives of Mary or Maxima or Mette - Marit, has changed very much in a short lapse of time. I am sure that Letizia re-joins the necessary conditions to be a good Princess of Asturias and future Queen of Spain. And they can give to the monarchy a fresh air, because she have been before like Mary or Maxima or Mette - Marit, women of the people and have lived out of the monarchy, they have had to pay their house, have been going to buy to the supermarket, the difficulties have had that we have the whole world in the life. For that things I believe that these four women, have been very brave and intrepid on having accepted the good and bad things, the responsibilities and duties that their positions have, especially to educate to their childrens to be future Kings or Queens, theymust to be inculcated by the sense of the duty of the responsibility and the love for their countries.

Evidently, they have few "Privileges" that the rest of the people do not have , but also they have other obligations that we do not have.

Certainly it is not relevant that we like their clothes or their hair, or their way of looking or if they are fat or thin.

Let's give them time to work, to used, to live, and I´m sure that in a few years they will give us an example of dedication to their families and to their countries.

Especially let's respect the opinions of each one, and tolerant.
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Old 07-07-2006, 05:33 AM
mtbcm's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 1,108
To imply that only members of Spanish Forum make people feeling bad when expressing the opposite opinion is utterly unfair and false.

All forum do that, people like someone and they tend to defend their lady.

It is wasn't for that I would never guessed that Crisiñaki hated Letizia or Juanita didn't like her at all.

There are people for whom Letizia and Felipe would never do anything right. And there are people for whom Felipe and Letizia would never do anything wrong at all.

The difference is in the enthusiasm put to defend their lady... some do it daily with whinking smiles and so on... other feel they have to write two pages of pros F&Ls and cons other royals.

I didn't like Letizia and Cristina outfit at King Onomástica, and I am sure that if I expressed that opinion regarding Letizia nothing would happen because I do not follow a pattern of chasin and throwing her (or anyother) down, but I respect those who liked it and have never seen anything more glorious. I don't like people making fun of an handicap of Duke of Lugo but here they are, whenever he appears he is Dracula in best chances.

In Portugal we have a saying that is something like this "Don't pick a tiger with a short stick" and for those who like the Crown Princes it is hard to read how a small child will be a great Queen for sure in one forum and how hard it will be for working hard adults to be good Kings.

People in TRF work hard daily trying to bring the best pictures and articles to cover the Royal Families' activities. When you take advantage of their work to throw rocks to their loved ones what do you expect?! That they thanked?!?!

I do agree with crisiñaki that it is no point to argue and make wars but it is also true that this turn-off brings less passion and dedication to the Forum.

But it is not true that this happens only on Spanish Forum! It happens in all Forums with different way of handdling it.

Now, before Elsa shows up, I'll take my glass of water and a deep breath!

Wish you all a great day!

Regards,
mtbcm :)
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