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  #81  
Old 07-08-2006, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbcm
Lets feel Princesses, as they seem to be the preferable object of agression, as human beings and not objects aquired by Royal Houses; and I am sure everyone will be more gentle when appreciating them and others.
That's a great point, it's surely something I try to adhere to when I post, but I'll be the first to admit I tend to forget this now and then.

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Originally Posted by mtbcm
Don't judge the book by the cover
The thing though is, that 'the cover' is often all we mere mortals get to see of these 'royals'. The reality is we don't know these people personally at all, and when all we get to go by is these heavily, orchestrated-to-the-core public events to judge these royals by, then what we do is we judge by the very <vibe> that the released footage or photo's gives us.

Some people are very good at gauging a person's inner core just from looking at a photograph of someone. Letizia's perceived arrogance might stem from the impression people get just looking at pictures of her. Whether or not this matches the reality, most of us will probably never know.

But to dismiss those who guesstimate say, Letizia's arrogance from pictures, is just as illogical as to be certain, also from looking at pictures, that Letizia is a fantastic human being. We just don't know and that's why everyone's opinion here is as valid as the next.
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  #82  
Old 07-08-2006, 04:30 AM
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i agree with many people here. there are obviously some articles that are written by people who not only don't know about what they are writting but also want to do harm to letizia and to the royal family.

on the other hand, it's suspicious and a sign of fanatism (which in any case it's bad, as extremes are always bad) that every single article that doesn't talk in a good way of letizia (specially, since there is a big boom nowadays of writing about her, since she is the novelty of the family) is a 'stupid, illogical' article that doesn't deserve the honour of being in the forum.

i think we should all allow ourselves to leave a margin on both sides of the scale.
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  #83  
Old 07-08-2006, 06:35 AM
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Good I would like to know that is what is wanted to obtain with this discussion? that is criticized all wants of Letizia and nobody to defend her? then I feel it reason why I am saying but that would be very difficult no?

Sometimes a person can put day after day a critic then arrives at a point in which this tires much and due to this it can that is answered of a way not very correct.

And if as much they are thus, do not think that it is for the simple reason that to Letizia always they are criticizing and arrives at least at a point that bothers much.

I do not enter the other forums of the royal, unless is spoken of the princes of Asturias. Either I say this because in my form to think if to my do not like, detests or hated to person, because does not interest anything to me whom she has to do with her, simple.
And with this I do not mean that nobody can think of Letizia; but do not think that if you hate to somebody you always are going to have a bad opinion of her?

I do not want to offend nobody; simply I give my opinion.
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  #84  
Old 07-08-2006, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRIS
Good I would like to know that is what is wanted to obtain with this discussion? that is criticized all wants of Letizia and nobody to defend her? then I feel it reason why I am saying but that would be very difficult no?
I don't think anybody is saying you can't defend Letizia or Felipe, and that she should just be fed to the dogs of criticism, banal or serious, endless or periodical. People are just saying, to quote Carlota as I think it's a great line, "a margin on both sides of the scale."

Nobody is perfect, and Letizia and Felipe do both good and bad things and we should be free to praise them here as much as to criticize them.

Obviously some members do not feel comfortable doing the latter, and we need to find a way for all viewpoints to be accommodated, not just the positive ones. That is the point of the discussion.
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  #85  
Old 07-08-2006, 12:12 PM
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I agree for the major remark of all the posts of this thread : keep cool when you are exposing your opinon for instance on the Princes of Asturias, and particulary on Letizia.

Nevertheless, I think that in all this very intersting discution on the way how you can express your feeling for or against the Princess, we forget one thing capital.

As you know, since her arrival in the royal circle of Spain Royal Family, Letizia has been attack with an extreme, sometimes crual, often ridiculous way about things so important as the realaty of her love for Felipe, the existence of serious mental illness as anorexy, her impossibilty to be mother and when she had been pregnant on the fact she had use the FIV way and so on and all the participants at TRF know that whithout to read others newspapers than the information founded in the forum.

All this vile attacks reapeted and reapeted again and again, against all obviousness had could and had should built an extreme exasperation in the field of the the Letizia's fans ( me the first )

Even if it's not a reason for refused all the critiques about the Princess, we have to admit that at each time the Princess is condemn as an anorexic skeletic woman, at each time the Princess is describe as a pale shadow of her husband or at the opposite as an arrogant and ambitious woman whithout that all the relavant answers are accepted, it's unaccetable.

In my mind, the most famous illustration of the sectarism of the Letizia's detractors is the famous word; " deja me terminar " in fact, for me, the exression of the willingness of a chye personn in front a new difficult situation in which she want to be absolutly out of critiques. Felipe had understand that very well and Letizia took the lesson, but three years after you can read that Letizia is too ambicious because she had interrupted the Prince( who in fact was the interruptor...)

Even if, I repeat, it's not apologized some quiet extreme behaviours, we have to admit that the same reproaches done since three years even though during this time Letizia is becoming the mother of a tremandous baby, the most secure lean of Felipe to increase his popularity and make him more confident in his role of Crown Prince, can arouse some exasperations in the field of the Letizia's fans

I hope very much that the thread coul help all the participants at TFR and specially for the Spain thread to understand some reactions and I'm totally sure that we are going to go on with a lot of fun, intelligency and kindness for speaking about our favourite " Heroes". ( Amen !..)
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  #86  
Old 07-08-2006, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princess olga
Some people are very good at gauging a person's inner core just from looking at a photograph of someone. Letizia's perceived arrogance might stem from the impression people get just looking at pictures of her. Whether or not this matches the reality, most of us will probably never know.
I disagree with that. A photo can give a glimpse of someone's state of mind at a particular point in time but to see into their inner core just from a photo? I don't think so. People are much more complex than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by princess olga
But to dismiss those who guesstimate say, Letizia's arrogance from pictures, is just as illogical as to be certain, also from looking at pictures, that Letizia is a fantastic human being. We just don't know and that's why everyone's opinion here is as valid as the next.
I agree with you there. The problem is that people often defend their opinions as if their opinions were fact when in fact we don't know. I think both sides in a difference of opinion could give each other the benefit of a doubt sometimes because if the truth be known, neither side may be right.

We're all guessing to some extent although its more helpful if the guessing is intelligent and not malicious.
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  #87  
Old 07-08-2006, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adelaide
Even if it's not a reason for refused all the critiques about the Princess, we have to admit that at each time the Princess is condemn as an anorexic skeletic woman, at each time the Princess is describe as a pale shadow of her husband or at the opposite as an arrogant and ambitious woman whithout that all the relavant answers are accepted, it's unaccetable.
I agree with yoiu there. Comments like those are unduly harsh. But the members in the Luxembourg forum probably had no idea that this history had been going on with the Spanish royal family. So when they asked a question that didn't seem to them to be that critical, they felt like they had been hit by an unnecessarily harsh attack. Not everybody comes to the boards with the same experiences and exposures to royals and not everybody who posts something critical of Letizia is necessarily a Letizia-hater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adelaide
Even if, I repeat, it's not apologized some quiet extreme behaviours, we have to admit that the same reproaches done since three years even though during this time Letizia is becoming the mother of a tremandous baby, the most secure lean of Felipe to increase his popularity and make him more confident in his role of Crown Prince, can arouse some exasperations in the field of the Letizia's fans
I agree that some criticisms of the Crown Princesses have been exaggerated but don't you think you're exaggerating here? I'm sure Leonor is cute but a tremendous baby? She's just a baby. And Letizia increasing the popularity of the Crown Prince? I think Felipe was quite popular before Letizia came along. I mention this because the worst criticisms have often come after a post that exaggerates all the good points about a royal.

If you don't want to see exaggerated criticisms of Letizia you may want to calm down the exaggerations of your compliments.

Felipe and Letizia look like nice normal human beings. They don't need to be over-criticized but they also don't need to be over-glorified.
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  #88  
Old 07-08-2006, 01:31 PM
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Letizia is skinny...too skinny--why is it so bad to mention that? Anorexic, I don't know--no one knows, but that she looks way too thin is true! The baby, just like any other baby, is cute but not spectacular or beautiful beyond belief. Not even Brad and Angelina's baby...she is just a baby--born to famous parents, royalty. I agree with Ysbel--too much of anything is just not healthy. Letizia is a fantastic human being?? Why?? What is so "fantastic" about her? She is just a regular person with many privileges who works hard in her own way. Fantastic is the single mother who raised her children alone and had to work three or four jobs...that is fantastic. Fantastic is the child who beat leukemia or any cancer...that's fantastic. God is fantastic!! It is too much that no one can say anything about Letizia...
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  #89  
Old 07-08-2006, 01:47 PM
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But, what is so wrong about someone thinking Letizia is the greatest human being on this planet?, that is just their opinion, i see no harm in that. You are asking respect for your own opinions, but at the same time you want to censor other members? if someone feels like saying Leonor is the most beautiful baby in the world, why souldn't they?
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  #90  
Old 07-08-2006, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adelaide
Even if, I repeat, it's not apologized some quiet extreme behaviours, we have to admit that the same reproaches done since three years even though during this time Letizia is becoming the mother of a tremandous baby, the most secure lean of Felipe to increase his popularity and make him more confident in his role of Crown Prince, can arouse some exasperations in the field of the Letizia's fans.
There is some truth here, and in all of this post, and words like "tremandous" may just be a translation thing; tremendous to me just means extremely large. It does appear that Letizia has increased Felipe's popularity, or at least his visibility, but I'm not Spanish so I can't say for sure.

The thing that I puzzle over is why some members seem to care so much. Unless you know one of these people, or you are one of these people, why get so personally involved in defending them? Why are you, for instance, "exasperated"? We are merely distant observers, looking at pictures and reading articles of varying validity. Nothing that we can say here in the forum will affect the popularity of these princesses in their countries, or change their privileged lives one iota.
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  #91  
Old 07-08-2006, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sadie
But, what is so wrong about someone thinking Letizia is the greatest human being on this planet?, that is just their opinion, i see no harm in that. You are asking respect for your own opinions, but at the same time you want to censor other members? if someone feels like saying Leonor is the most beautiful baby in the world, why souldn't they?
I mentioned it because some members here complained about the exaggerated and unfair criticisms of Letizia. In part I agree, exaggerated criticism is not fair and not fun to read on the boards.

But adulation can be exaggerated too and when people start posting how perfect and wonderful and fantastic a princess is, then you can guarantee that someone is going to respond with an exaggerated criticism of that same princess.

Exaggeration promotes more exaggeration. If people don't like exaggerated criticism, I think they should look to see if they are exaggerating too.
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  #92  
Old 07-08-2006, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sadie
But, what is so wrong about someone thinking Letizia is the greatest human being on this planet?, that is just their opinion, i see no harm in that. You are asking respect for your own opinions, but at the same time you want to censor other members? if someone feels like saying Leonor is the most beautiful baby in the world, why souldn't they?
This is a good point, asking for respect is a vicious cycle. Aren't we trying to censor people, in a way, for using words like stupid, or being too harsh, or too adoring, or too extreme? It's a balancing act, you have to get the really partisan types to tone it down so as not to intimidate people who want to post, but you also have to be careful in how you censor them, or you become as partisan and intimidating as they are.
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  #93  
Old 07-08-2006, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by royaltywatcher
There is some truth here, and in all of this post, and words like "tremandous" may just be a translation thing; tremendous to me just means extremely large. It does appear that Letizia has increased Felipe's popularity, or at least his visibility, but I'm not Spanish so I can't say for sure.
Yes, I thought about that too, royaltywatcher. Tremendous can mean extremely large in English too. I couldn't see where Leonor being physically large though could have any relationship with adelaide's exasperation of the way she thinks Letizia is being treated so I thought she meant tremendous the same way as wonderful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by royaltywatcher
The thing that I puzzle over is why some members seem to care so much. Unless you know one of these people, or you are one of these people, why get so personally involved in defending them? Why are you, for instance, "exasperated"? We are merely distant observers, looking at pictures and reading articles of varying validity. Nothing that we can say here in the forum will affect the popularity of these princesses in their countries, or change their privileged lives one iota.
I'm curious about that too.
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  #94  
Old 07-08-2006, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sadie
But, what is so wrong about someone thinking Letizia is the greatest human being on this planet?, that is just their opinion, i see no harm in that. You are asking respect for your own opinions, but at the same time you want to censor other members? if someone feels like saying Leonor is the most beautiful baby in the world, why souldn't they?
There is nothing wrong. You are just missing the point. The fact that she is "tremendous" or "fantastic" is okay as long as you don't attack people when they say she is too skinny or not perfect...it goes both ways. Leonor might be the most beautiful baby in the world, just don't get upset if someone says she is not as pretty as you said...she is a cute baby...the most beautiful baby...that is your opinion, and it is great...just don't get so personal when someone says something different...
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  #95  
Old 07-08-2006, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Roxsteve
Letizia is skinny...too skinny--why is it so bad to mention that? Anorexic, I don't know--no one knows, but that she looks way too thin is true!
On the issue of Letizia's weight I do take personal umbrage against.

Anorexia is a serious disease and isn't something that should just be bandied about. Anorexia is about more than physical weight -- it is a psychological disease that is ultimately in most cases about control of one's life, and to my knowledge, none of us here have first hand knowledge of Letizia's life to diagnose her as being anorexic.

In my personal opinon, as I have seen the Letizia weight discussion hashed over and over again, and have first hand knowledge of someone who has dealt with anorexia on and off for the last 10 years, it is not something I wish to see bandied about in the same breath as "Letizia's skirt is ugly." I think that discussions that either dance around the subject of Letizia being anorexic to those that directly state that she has anorexia, both of which has happened here, can take place too frivolously. And can ultimately have a broader psychological impact on members. Consider a member who idolizes Letizia (and isn't that what has started this discussion in the first place? That some members idolize Letizia and defend her at the expense of other members' feelings and opinons) and hears comments about how great she is and extrapolates that to think that she is beautiful because she is so thin. That could cause them to try and lose weight in a manner that is unhealthy and may even be unnecessary.

I am not trying to say that we shouldn't try to have serious discussions, but I would say that extreme caution is required when discussing particular subject matter.
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  #96  
Old 07-08-2006, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
I disagree with that. A photo can give a glimpse of someone's state of mind at a particular point in time but to see into their inner core just from a photo? I don't think so. People are much more complex than that.
You're totally right Ysbel! 'Inner core' was putting it way too strongly, to say the least! My bad! :o
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  #97  
Old 07-08-2006, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Roxsteve
Letizia is skinny...too skinny--why is it so bad to mention that? Anorexic, I don't know--no one knows, but that she looks way too thin is true! The baby, just like any other baby, is cute but not spectacular or beautiful beyond belief. Not even Brad and Angelina's baby.
I once said on the Letizia thread when she was in Germany watching the world cup game, that she should indulge into that country's staples of bradwurst and schnitzel or something to gain some weight, which I now regret saying. As Alexandria said, the whole weight discussion is a huge slippery slope, and a very dangerous one at that. Same, for that matter, with comments on the appearance of infants and children. Positive comments, however sappy, are fine I think because they don't do any damage.

The opposite is a different story. I remember comments on for example little Amalia's facial features and little Christian of Denmark when each was just born. Those comments were so critical of these infant's appearances I won't even repeat them here. Commenting on the appearance of adults is one thing. If they really want, they can step up and defend themselves. Not so with underaged kids, therefore criticizing them on something they can't even control, namely their genes, is completely wrong in my view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxsteve
Letizia is a fantastic human being?? Why?? What is so "fantastic" about her? She is just a regular person with many privileges who works hard in her own way. Fantastic is the single mother who raised her children alone and had to work three or four jobs...that is fantastic. Fantastic is the child who beat leukemia or any cancer...that's fantastic.
Agree if we want to look for 'hero's', we often don't have to look far beyond our own environments. There are so many people who are not famous at all but who work small miracles day after day. Thing with famous folk like Letizia is, we also use them as this blank canvas to project and heap our own hopes, wishes and frustrations onto. Even more so if we know they once walked among the ranks of billions of commoners, and now they moved up from that.
Some of us think, "what on the planet is so great about this girl that she gets to do this let alone everyone admire her every move", hence the overly harsh criticism.
Others are willing to "drink the coolaid" as the expression here in the US goes, and swallow whatever bone the vast PR machines behind these royals throw us royalty watchers.

I have to admit that I often fall in <both> these groups. With some royals, I tend to be biased. For example, there's some things I disagree on regarding queen Beatrix, but there's so much I admire about the woman--or perhaps rather, about the persona that we get presented--that I'm quick to defend her on the forum if need be. Same with Mathilde: for the life of me I can't <not> like that princess, even though the very things I sometimes criticize, say, Mary or Maxima on, Mathilde is 'guilty' of as well!
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Old 07-08-2006, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxsteve
There is nothing wrong. You are just missing the point. The fact that she is "tremendous" or "fantastic" is okay as long as you don't attack people when they say she is too skinny or not perfect...it goes both ways. Leonor might be the most beautiful baby in the world, just don't get upset if someone says she is not as pretty as you said...she is a cute baby...the most beautiful baby...that is your opinion, and it is great...just don't get so personal when someone says something different...

Ok, i understand what you're triying to say and agree that there souldn't be any attacks to anybody who criticize Letizia, i myself don't think she is perfect, i agree she is very thin and that she used to look better before her marriage. But i'm also triying to point out that the changes should not only come from the side of Letizia supporters, sometimes (not always) the negative remarks, aren't as innocent as some of you are saying.

I don't enjoy giving people (royalty or not) diseases, or making up stories about them, and i centainly don't like it when others do it on this forum, unless there is proof of Letizia being anorexic or whatever you claim to know about her pass life for example, i really rather it not to be discusse here, that kind of stuff is what would make this place unpleasant and what i fear it may become if we don't put certain boundaries.
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Old 07-08-2006, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sadie
Ok, i understand what you're triying to say and agree that there souldn't be any attacks to anybody who criticize Letizia, i myself don't think she is perfect, i agree she is very thin and that she used to look better before her marriage. But i'm also triying to point out that the changes should not only come from the side of Letizia supporters, sometimes (not always) the negative remarks, aren't as innocent as some of you are saying.

I don't enjoy giving people (royalty or not) diseases, or making up stories about them, and i centainly don't like it when others do it on this forum, unless there is proof of Letizia being anorexic or whatever you claim to know about her pass life for example, i really rather it not to be discusse here, that kind of stuff is what would make this place unpleasant and what i fear it may become if we don't put certain boundaries.
Look, what you really have to keep in mind is that it is a discussion. People use different words and have different ideas. When discussions are curtailed, because they might offend someone, you no longer have a discussion, you have a site with a one side, cloying impression. It is true Anorexia is a disease and one should think before they bandy words like that around, on the other hand, some just might use them as an adjective to describe someone being very thin. How you feel about someone is personal. How you feel about someone you don't know is really opinion without fact. Leitizia in fact, might have a problem, I don't know, or perhaps she is just thin and that is how she is built. She is lovely, what kind of a person she is, no one here knows, really. So, let people express themselves and take what you will with a grain of salt. Perhaps, it should be made known that will be no more real discussions on any site, only positive input and those who value open discussion will have to seek other places to communicate. Leitizia is not complaining about anything said here, she doesn't know or care that this exists, so she is never really hurt, but this. She does have to put up with Tabloids and other reports which she does hear and see, but I am sure she knew that would be part of the "job".
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Old 07-08-2006, 06:14 PM
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Dear ysbel, I can't understand your reamark about my position because first of all if I want to say that the Infantita is a tramandous baby is my choice. The vocabolary as " Oh the so cutie little angel " it's not my way to express and if you take the opportunity to look at thread as "the presentation of Leonor at virgin of Atocha , you can see a baby with a tremendous look watching to her father as very few babies in the actual royal circle are able to do. Please go and watch at the Leonor's look for her dad. For me it's not too cute, it's tremandous because at this times Leonor was only 7 months......

Then, for the impact of Letizia beside Felipe and the rising of his popularity ( in fact, to be correct, these of the team "Princes of Asturias ") it's not a my mind point of vue; Your right the Princes was not unknow before he was married - and be fair, I never wrote that - but because he is shy, may be in a difficult situatution regarding the great aura of his father, he had a lot of difficulties to find his right place. As I said it's thanks to Letizia beside him whithout seeking the spotlights and plus playing only the consort role ( don't forget she was a successfull anchorwoman ) the Prince is going to have e very better image in the people. It's not me who assert that, it's a general remark of the quiet all political commentators.

I add, even if I find it's more a political subject a little bit boring, that in April of this year a sound had credit Letizia of the second place just after the King and very far away of the politics who are at the head of Spain Gouvernement.

My purpose is quiet to justify my vocabulary that you can find a little bit excessive but in Spain the " heroes" don't read very often Barbara Cartland , the "Gongorism" is finished since the XVII century and you can see this week with the Pope's visit, the events are very often impressive.

So, i hope that you will understand my sentences, may be in their strengh, but I repeat Spain is not a Candy Country, isen't it?

This last question is said with the visa of Spain foroes ? Oufa, I fear the answers...... Don't be so crual.....
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