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  #181  
Old 04-18-2007, 05:36 PM
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We should be able to discuss differences in opinions. In other words, everyone should be able to express his or her opinion as long as it is done in a civil manner.
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  #182  
Old 04-18-2007, 06:26 PM
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I think we all now get along, but as soon as someone says something other than positive about F&L, then we are told many things. I have been "attacked" many times with very sarcastic comments, but I have stood my ground. I don't dislike the princes, but I am going to give my viewpoint regardless whether people like it or not in a respectful manner.
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  #183  
Old 04-18-2007, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redferns
Mary of Denmark?
I think Letizia and Mary are the most interesting crownprincesses, they are intelligent, beautiful women. People love them or hate them because they're more popular than the others. Photographers love them

I've always found very boring Mathilde and Maxima's subforums, they are full of "oooooh, aaaaah, awwwww" and nobody criticises them.
I deliberately didn't mention the forum in question.

I just wanted to point out that the sort of behaviour described in this thread can be applied to other Royals forums.
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  #184  
Old 04-18-2007, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by grevinnan
For many people of european birth your take on what royalty is about is perhaps off the mark. Royalty is part of our culture, heritage and history. If you are looking for celebrities to discuss Hollywood may be a better choice.
You resumed my own ideas about this issue, Grevinnan. I came to these Forums under the impression of it was a place to discuss something that is important for European or Asiatic or African heritage (since we also discuss Royal Families who are not from European roots): the Monarchy and the current Kings, Queens , Princes and Emperors who make this kind of governement possible in XXI Century. It was not the case... Here, I found a lot of young persons (I'm not old myself, but I must accept I'm not the kind of young person that is praised nowadays! ) interested in Royals as they could have been interested in some Rock group or in a Hollywood star. They are in their fully right to do so, but this is not me.

I must also confess that I see a lot of people (specially young women) defending furiously the new crownprincess only for they are young, dinamic , modern and "commoners" (I hate this word, but I don't know how to write about persons who didin't born Royals), some of them working in enterprises or being journalist. They defends Princess Letizia exactly for this reason...and I must confess that I don't like the modern kind of life, and that it is mainly for that, that I do not accept easily this kind of princess, being commoners or from Royal blood. The thing I do not want it's to convert the Monarchy's old values in something also globalizated and boring as all things are becoming (music is all the same all around the world, meals are all the same too, education, clothes, ideas, values, etc). Monarchy was the only little place were the difference and the particularism are allowed, yet. Monarchy was the refuge of elegance, good manners, some kind of culture, aesthetics and glamour, and of course, the refuge of national traditions of every country we discuss here. This will disappears if princes and princesses wants to be "modern people", enterprises men and women, rockers , sport men and women, or simple pawns of the real politic power of their nations. I feel a great pity for Queens , Kings and Crwonprinces when I see them at TV , reading seriously a speech about AIDS or other matters that other people wrote for them. I see them not as free people, as their nation leaders, but as employés.

My main problem with Princess like Letizia is what she is. Not the fact she is commoner (she could be one and having the values of the Monarchy), but her own confession of being a democrat (not in the sense of respect others opinion, because in this, I'm a democrat myself, of course, as all tolerant people are)...How could a democrat marry a Prince? If she was sincere with herself, she wouldn't. Why did she marry Prince Felipe, then? I let aside all possible answers, for I could offend people and I don't want it. And, yes...I do not like very much divorced people (women or men...no matter). But once she married the prince and gave birth to Princess Leonor, I must try to see the better faces of her, since she could be the mother of the future Heir. Now, I'll be sad if she divorces someday...Besides, her little girl is innocent of her parents actions, and I'm thinking about her too. So, I do not criticize Princesse of Asturias now as much as I used to do before...or at least, I only points out the things that could harm her reputation. But for example, I don't think she culd have anorexia and will not share the opinion of people affirming she is suffering from eating disorders.

The principal trouble with all people who is discussing here seems to be this one: some are modernist and wants to see Monarchy become a "dinamic" institution, and noblepeople become almost commoners, and some are conservative. These are two opinions, but I'm seeing that the last ones are a little afraid to confess they are from"the old school" and suffers a great deal pretending they are not. Everytime that someone jumps out to say: "So...are you not a feminist?" or "What do you have against realativism of traditions?", they goes back and said that yes, of course, hey are feminist and that no...they are relativist as all people nowadays is.

I'll not be coward and I will said that I'm a traditionalist, or a "conservative" as people likes to said to make the word sound pejorative. And of course, having these convictions I will criticize things that I don't like seeing them by my perspective, like some behavior of certain Royals (born in nobility or out of it), that seems to think that they could live as playboys or playgirls (I don't find the word to said it) or that Royalty is the same than being the head of a commercial enterprise. Maybe I'm wrong...but I've me rights to defend my convictions, as well as the persons who has the opposite ones.

And yes...Maybe it is more "fun" to go to a Forum where people discuss a Princesse. But my own thought about this, is that is better not to have too much to criticize. I like persons that accomplish their duties happily, for the love of their country.

Vanesa.
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  #185  
Old 04-18-2007, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanesa
You resumed my own ideas about this issue, Grevinnan. I came to these Forums under the impression of it was a place to discuss something that is important for European or Asiatic or African heritage (since we also discuss Royal Families who are not from European roots): the Monarchy and the current Kings, Queens , Princes and Emperors who make this kind of governement possible in XXI Century. It was not the case... Here, I found a lot of young persons (I'm not old myself, but I must accept I'm not the kind of young person that is praised nowadays! ) interested in Royals as they could have been interested in some Rock group or in a Hollywood star. They are in their fully right to do so, but this is not me.

I must also confess that I see a lot of people (specially young women) defending furiously the new crownprincess only for they are young, dinamic , modern and "commoners" (I hate this word, but I don't know how to write about persons who didin't born Royals), some of them working in enterprises or being journalist. They defends Princess Letizia exactly for this reason...and I must confess that I don't like the modern kind of life, and that it is mainly for that, that I do not accept easily this kind of princess, being commoners or from Royal blood. The thing I do not want it's to convert the Monarchy's old values in something also globalizated and boring as all things are becoming (music is all the same all around the world, meals are all the same too, education, clothes, ideas, values, etc). Monarchy was the only little place were the difference and the particularism are allowed, yet. Monarchy was the refuge of elegance, good manners, some kind of culture, aesthetics and glamour, and of course, the refuge of national traditions of every country we discuss here. This will disappears if princes and princesses wants to be "modern people", enterprises men and women, rockers , sport men and women, or simple pawns of the real politic power of their nations. I feel a great pity for Queens , Kings and Crwonprinces when I see them at TV , reading seriously a speech about AIDS or other matters that other people wrote for them. I see them not as free people, as their nation leaders, but as employés.

My main problem with Princess like Letizia is what she is. Not the fact she is commoner (she could be one and having the values of the Monarchy), but her own confession of being a democrat (not in the sense of respect others opinion, because in this, I'm a democrat myself, of course, as all tolerant people are)...How could a democrat marry a Prince? If she was sincere with herself, she wouldn't. Why did she marry Prince Felipe, then? I let aside all possible answers, for I could offend people and I don't want it. And, yes...I do not like very much divorced people (women or men...no matter). But once she married the prince and gave birth to Princess Leonor, I must try to see the better faces of her, since she could be the mother of the future Heir. Now, I'll be sad if she divorces someday...Besides, her little girl is innocent of her parents actions, and I'm thinking about her too. So, I do not criticize Princesse of Asturias now as much as I used to do before...or at least, I only points out the things that could harm her reputation. But for example, I don't think she culd have anorexia and will not share the opinion of people affirming she is suffering from eating disorders.

The principal trouble with all people who is discussing here seems to be this one: some are modernist and wants to see Monarchy become a "dinamic" institution, and noblepeople become almost commoners, and some are conservative. These are two opinions, but I'm seeing that the last ones are a little afraid to confess they are from"the old school" and suffers a great deal pretending they are not. Everytime that someone jumps out to say: "So...are you not a feminist?" or "What do you have against realativism of traditions?", they goes back and said that yes, of course, hey are feminist and that no...they are relativist as all people nowadays is.

I'll not be coward and I will said that I'm a traditionalist, or a "conservative" as people likes to said to make the word sound pejorative. And of course, having these convictions I will criticize things that I don't like seeing them by my perspective, like some behavior of certain Royals (born in nobility or out of it), that seems to think that they could live as playboys or playgirls (I don't find the word to said it) or that Royalty is the same than being the head of a commercial enterprise. Maybe I'm wrong...but I've me rights to defend my convictions, as well as the persons who has the opposite ones.

And yes...Maybe it is more "fun" to go to a Forum where people discuss a Princesse. But my own thought about this, is that is better not to have too much to criticize. I like persons that accomplish their duties happily, for the love of their country.

Vanesa.

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  #186  
Old 04-19-2007, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanesa
My main problem with Princess like Letizia is what she is. Not the fact she is commoner (she could be one and having the values of the Monarchy), but her own confession of being a democrat (not in the sense of respect others opinion, because in this, I'm a democrat myself, of course, as all tolerant people are)...How could a democrat marry a Prince? If she was sincere with herself, she wouldn't. Why did she marry Prince Felipe, then? I let aside all possible answers, for I could offend people and I don't want it. And, yes...Vanesa.
I have never heard Letizia openly stated her political view. All the articles I read that claimed her a Republican or pro-PSOE (actually the King gets along better with PSOE too) were 2nd or 3rd hand infos.
For the question why she married Felipe ? Because he was after her. I have to say it's not so easy to find a Spanish girl who wouldn't fall in love with their Prince if he was sincerely after her.
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  #187  
Old 04-19-2007, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olka
Easy to say that, Donna K. But things are a bit different when you try to express your opinion - especially about the Spanish Princely Couple - and your opinion is not only "oooooh, aaah, awwwww, wonderful", you have almost at once some people attacking you verbally. Sometimes even without knowledge of the cause. I received such silly arguments, that I prefered not to comment them. And they were from peple who should at least know a bit of their country and royal family history if they want to have good arguments to defend their opinion. Not just throw words her and there...
If one poster calls another one stupid, silly or a lier, then it's a verbal attack, so far I haven't seen this happening recently. Perhaps there were bunch of heated discussions, but they were still discussions. On throwing words here and there, it goes both ways.
I disagree that there exists Spanish posters here (like or dislike the Princes) who completely lack knowledge of their country and royal family history. Some might not be informed well on a certain subject, but it's normal that nobody can be informed well on everything.
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  #188  
Old 04-19-2007, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanesa
I must also confess that I see a lot of people (specially young women) defending furiously the new crownprincess only for they are young, dinamic , modern and "commoners" (I hate this word, but I don't know how to write about persons who didin't born Royals), some of them working in enterprises or being journalist. They defends Princess Letizia exactly for this reason...and I must confess that I don't like the modern kind of life, and that it is mainly for that, that I do not accept easily this kind of princess, being commoners or from Royal blood.
To a certain degree, I agree with you. However in this day and age for monarchies to survivie they need to be seen as "relevant" and "normal". Marrying non-Royals is one way of doing this (although I'm not saying that this is the reason why Royals marry non-Royals).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanesa
I feel a great pity for Queens , Kings and Crwonprinces when I see them at TV , reading seriously a speech about AIDS or other matters that other people wrote for them. I see them not as free people, as their nation leaders, but as employés.
Royalty is all about serving your country, so essentially they are employees. Just extra-special ones!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanesa
her own confession of being a democrat (not in the sense of respect others opinion, because in this, I'm a democrat myself, of course, as all tolerant people are)...How could a democrat marry a Prince? If she was sincere with herself, she wouldn't. Why did she marry Prince Felipe, then?
Letizia has never done a public interview like other Royals, so when did she "confess" to being a Republican?

I have friends who have extremely left-wing views, that doesn't mean I share them. People are attracted to others for a variety of reasons, I suspect political affiliation is fairly low on the list. If she married Felipe it is because she loved him.

After all, if Letizia really is a Republican as so many claim then the idea of being a princess would have no value for her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanesa
I'll not be coward and I will said that I'm a traditionalist, or a "conservative" as people likes to said to make the word sound pejorative. And of course, having these convictions I will criticize things that I don't like seeing them by my perspective, like some behavior of certain Royals (born in nobility or out of it), that seems to think that they could live as playboys or playgirls (I don't find the word to said it) or that Royalty is the same than being the head of a commercial enterprise. Maybe I'm wrong...but I've me rights to defend my convictions, as well as the persons who has the opposite ones.
What you post is entirely upto you, if you want to be critical or supportive that is your right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanesa
And yes...Maybe it is more "fun" to go to a Forum where people discuss a Princesse. But my own thought about this, is that is better not to have too much to criticize. I like persons that accomplish their duties happily, for the love of their country.

Vanesa.
On that note, I think most people would agree.

Thank you for your post, Vanesa, I enjoyed reading it.
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  #189  
Old 04-19-2007, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redferns

I've always found very boring Mathilde and Maxima's subforums, they are full of "oooooh, aaaaah, awwwww" and nobody criticises them.
Its as simple as it gets, there is nothing or imo to critcies them about
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  #190  
Old 04-19-2007, 04:48 AM
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People should be able to express their opinion without getting attacked, but very few can get away with it. No one is perfect, not the king & queen, or the CP couple or anyone of us, we all lack something in a way. The difference is that every one of us see these things in a different way therefore, we should all be able to talk & discuss them. Positive or negative points should be okay to everyone. We cant just say “Z is perfect, M is so pretty, K is so elegant all the time etc..” we all look at things differently. Yes, you could disagree, but without attacking one another, that way, you get a nice conversation seeing different views instead of getting 2-3 posts which end up with a warning or an argument
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  #191  
Old 04-19-2007, 05:53 AM
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If we can to summarize the different items regarding this very intersting thread, it's difficult because we have two or three levels of discussion.

1- Yes, generally speaking, some of participants focus such or such Crown Princes couples, or Prince and Princess separately exactly as they make projection on movies's actor/actress representing the beauty, the youth, the successful, in a dreaming area. We know that the CrownPrinces 's reality is not that but we can forbid that because it's your own right to the dream, to have your personal Alice at the wonderfulland even if it's very far away of the intrinsic realities of a Crown Princes's couples of today.

2- At the opposite, you have participants, very linked at an idea quiet reactionary of the monarchy - which quiet all today are constitutional whithout power to govern- who are very surprised by the internal evolutions of the rules itselves of this monarchies. They have a lot of difficulties to admit that the monarchic dogma has to adapt to a the sitution of today to avoid the risk of the implosion. In this difficulties of misunderstanding, you find the opposition of the inequal mariage, with a lot of variations.

3- The most part of the participants, mainly concerning the observators of the generation of Crown Princes couples ( or not) of today have many ideas of the question because their own history, because their intellectual curiosity, because the interst for this kind of political organisation. That point is very intersting, and we have to say that we can reed some ideas original of which some polticians have to lean something to avoid some difficulties( but it's not our problem)

The true problem for having a coherent debate is to have a good sources of information- not necessary the most dry newspapers- and to avoid the manipilations of the text.
In my opinion too, the other pitfal is to think that if somebodies have decided to involve their life for their country, for these of whom it's not the predestination, it's necessary opportunism because he/she was before his/her mariage someone with other political ideas than the monarchic way of thaught.
Everybody is understanding what I want to mean. To precise my purpose, in the case of Letizia of Spain, it's totally clear that the both understand themselves very well for themselves and for the aim very fascinating to be at the service of the spagniards. Heard the first speech of Felipe to present Letizia, see all the actions done by Letizia to learn how she can help her husband in this so difficult task.
Here it's not Alicia at the WonderLand, here it's NOT a mariage for the movie's promotion, here it's a fight of today to be recognized, not only as the futur arbitrators of a numerous Spain but also in a indiscutable shape, because they are the representant of the Spain and not only of so and so political party of Spain - there are governements for that-they can lead the Spain in all the fields which make their country the inheritor of a great history and cultur and to incline for the futur to all the social, moral and cultural progress - Look at the Prizes Principe Felipe de Asturias- In this perspective, you can stay on the idea that before her mariage, the Princess was leftist because as you know Felipe and her - precisely with her - are judged ALL DAYS LONG on their work.
To end, after my too long post ( sorry!!), it's impossible that Letizia had thaught to marry Felipe only for a statut, because as a journalist she knew for the interior the kind of life of a royal - may be not really in all the details... neither the bad one!!!- and as an intelligent and beatiful spanish women to have by love the opportunity to work for her Land it's a marvellous challenge.. and the Felip's life is yet a challenge, by the way the Letizia's life it's a challenge too, isen'it?
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  #192  
Old 04-19-2007, 06:16 AM
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On a slightly different note, one of the things I've noticed about the Spanish Forums is that alot of the posters are not native English speakers and come from a variety of backgrounds.

Personally I think alot of comments are twisted purely because of misinterpretation. There have been times when I've read posts that somebody else has perceived as an attack and agreed. Until, I've read it a second or third time and thought maybe that wasn't the original intention.
I'm, not saying this is always the case, but I've seen it a few times.
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  #193  
Old 04-19-2007, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
On a slightly different note, one of the things I've noticed about the Spanish Forums is that alot of the posters are not native English speakers and come from a variety of backgrounds.

Personally I think alot of comments are twisted purely because of misinterpretation. There have been times when I've read posts that somebody else has perceived as an attack and agreed. Until, I've read it a second or third time and thought maybe that wasn't the original intention.
I'm, not saying this is always the case, but I've seen it a few times.
thats very true, i also think when something isnt clear its not really asked what did you exactly mean so the person goes on understanding it in his/her own way.
Another thing is that some people get very protective over a certain royal & when something is said that they did not like, they get attacked
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  #194  
Old 04-19-2007, 07:36 AM
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In which interviews said the princess who was republican?

You can read articles and articles that say that she is thus but she never has given an interview. Soon because she married with the prince? Then something so easy as they fell in love and they decided to share their life.

I do not have anything against the divorced people because one never knows what it can happen to you in the life; and this is better than to follow with a person; when no longer there is love nor communication.

Can that the people wished that the prince married with somebody of the high society or princess; but that guarantees that? the marriage of Carlos and Diana? Carlos loved Camila and to follow what he was expected, because he married with Diana and the result was that many people suffered for that reason.

In my opinion a marriage by love is better, as the princes are doing it now; that one does not know if someday finished to the love but the time that were together they were very happy and that is most important.

It is not necessary to be egoistic and to think since he resigns; noo is that he has made something bad? Because not to give the opportunity to that person to demonstrate that she can be princess?

Good I have given my opinion and I believe that I have not attacked anybody, simply I am not in agreement with other people.
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  #195  
Old 04-19-2007, 08:10 AM
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I simply think It comes down to respecting others opinions. We don't always have to agree we can agree to disagree but in a respectul and courteous manner.
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  #196  
Old 04-19-2007, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seto
I simply think It comes down to respecting others opinions. We don't always have to agree we can agree to disagree but in a respectul and courteous manner.
Yes, we should agree to disagree in a courteous manner.
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  #197  
Old 04-19-2007, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzling
thats very true, i also think when something isnt clear its not really asked what did you exactly mean so the person goes on understanding it in his/her own way.
Another thing is that some people get very protective over a certain royal & when something is said that they did not like, they get attacked
I'll admit I'm not on this forum all the time, however I've never really noticed these attacks.

I've seen a few posts that have been borderlione rude, but often the "victim" is giving just as good as some of the "attackers".
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  #198  
Old 04-19-2007, 07:56 PM
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Normally people who are attacked usually are very critical people with the Princes of Asturias. But except these cases I think that normally the opinion of all is respected.
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Old 04-19-2007, 08:04 PM
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I find the message posted by Adelaide extremely useful. It's a good explanation of what is happening here and even in other Royal Forums.

It doesn't meant that I should "evolue" and change my political views. I do not consider myself as a person with "ancient" ideas. For me, these ideas are as valable that they were 1000 years ago, for I'm of the opinion of there are truths that never changes. On the other hand, I do not be offended if some call me "reactionnary" for I am! Being a "reactionnary" is having a "reaction" toward an "X" idea, and certinly I have a "reaction" to Republican ideology. The word "reactionnary" has its roots in French Revoltuion, when Monarchist had a begative "reaction" to Republican rules.

Of course, I has leftist friends...and even an uncle who is communist! (Just think how hard is it to me! But he is nice, and it's really good being with him), but in general, I find them more intolerant to me than the opposite. I don't try them to change, and don't attack their views, however, they are trying to force me to become one of them and sometimes, put themselves in a very agressive mood. It's for this that I try to avoid political issues with them. Sadly, I ever find these kind of people here, in a Royal Forum, and it surprises me more than make me upset or angry. I accept that there are Communist, Democrat, Liberals, etc, etc Forum...but I have clear that I never become a member of these...and if I would, I should understand that its members would jump over me. I should be an outsider...Evidently! But here?

However, I must said that most of people of the Royal Forums are extremely nice an helpful. I'm happy to be here, sharing this little space in the net. And I'm very ashamed for I'm not to useful to others as others are to me. I'm a donkey for I don't know how to post photos here, and almost everyone does! I enlarged my collection of Royal Photos and I can't help others as others helps me.

TO CRIS: Of course, two persons of different views may (and I should say they MUST) marry. But, in the case of Royals this is different, at least in the case of a ruling one...If a Crownprince/princesse marries a Republican this can bring troubles, since she/he doesn't believe in Monarchy's Insitution and would discredit it. It's the same if a president of a Republic would marry someone who doesn't believe in Republican system. I see this a little dangerous, at least.

I read Princess Letizia's statements here, in this same thread. Someone (I must go check there) posted it some pages ago. But it was a message defending her, not against the Princess. I think Adelaide posted it.

Vanesa.
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  #200  
Old 04-19-2007, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanesa
TO CRIS: Of course, two persons of different views may (and I should say they MUST) marry. But, in the case of Royals this is different, at least in the case of a ruling one...If a Crownprince/princesse marries a Republican this can bring troubles, since she/he doesn't believe in Monarchy's Insitution and would discredit it. It's the same if a president of a Republic would marry someone who doesn't believe in Republican system. I see this a little dangerous, at least.
That's true. Thus I don't think Felipe and Letizia have complete opposite political views, otherwise they wouldn't have come together. Most of the Spaniards support the monarchy right now because it works better with the King than any Republican President. If Letizia before meeting Felipe, like many other Spaniards, had 'wait and see' attitude on Felipe's capability as the Head of State, then it's perfect understandable since even Felipe knows that he needs to gain the position himself through good service to Spain like his father.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanesa
I read Princess Letizia's statements here, in this same thread. Someone (I must go check there) posted it some pages ago. But it was a message defending her, not against the Princess. I think Adelaide posted it.

Vanesa.
Adelaide ? Don't remember she said it. Perhaps you misunderstoood her. I had seen almost all of the interviews given by Letizia pre-engagement and she had never made such statement in public.
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