May 2008: "King, Kaiser, Tsar" by Catrine Clay - Page 3

**HRH Kerry** · #41 05-08-2008, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyCat

Since both Victoria and Albert were essentially German, I think their hearts were in the right place. They evidently knew, or believed, the German states would eventually have to be united and would have preferred the unification to happen peacefully and become more of a constitutional monarchy like England. It is rather sad that they assigned this task to Vicky, who turned out to be woefully unsuited, and that Albert did not live long enough to assist her in making his dream a reality.

Vicky was a princess, plain and simple, of good intelligence but she was not a diplomat. Even if she was this no mere feat to be accomplished by one and especially not by a young woman. True enough Victoria and Albert had the insight to see that which way the wind was blowing for Prussia, the Kaiser, Bismarck, and the other cronies didn't want any outside interference that wasn't within their plans. How can you be peaceful with those who don't want it? The Prussian Empire might've been in fear on becoming a part on the British Empire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyCat

There were several factors that conspired against them, and Vicky and Fritz. I don't think they counted on Bismark and his unification of Germany by sheer brute force. Nor was Vicky's ingrained "Englishness" considered. Vicky was either unable or unwilling to blend into the existing Prussian Court before she let her liberal views be known. She lacked the common sense and diplomatic skills necessary for the task her parents laid upon her.

I believe Vicky in all of her righteousness of being her mother's daughter refused to willingly blend into the Prussian Court. My take is that her mom was the head of the most powerful monarchy and it was within her power to make a change. She didn't wait to see how the clock turned but jumped in feet first and foolishly voiced all very English opinions in what I can only describe as a very suspicious and hostile Prussia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyCat

Willy's personality was also another factor no one could have foreseen. None of these men, especially Willy and Nicky, were raised to fully appreciate and understand the roles they would eventually assume. Had Willy been shown more tolerance by his English grandmother and uncle, even his cousin George, the whole thing might have turned out quite differently. If Willy had been able to select his friends and advisers better it also would have helped.

True but Bismarck took advantage of Willy's personally. I'll leave it at that since I'm going too far ahead. But Vicky seemed to be a very shallow and selfish person when it came to her kids. Willy wasn't perfect to her. No crap Sherlock! She didn't try hard enough to be a good influence on him. I don't know how results would have differed if he would've been able to choose his own friends and advisors with that volatile personality of his. Remember flattery was a problem but it was also what he wanted. Who's to say if this would've played out differently if he didn't receive it? He was so unpredictable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyCat

Then again, had Nicky's grandfather not been assassinated, Russia might have been more liberal. Sadly Sacha reacted very badly to his father's death. He and Alix both failed in preparing Nicky to be Tsar, just as Vicky and Fritz failed with Willy.

Oh, without a doubt. Besides Russia was on its way to a "better tomorrow" but Sasha ripped up the reform proposals written by his father. The reforms were a step forward. I believe that Sasha as well as Nicky were ill prepared to rule as a result of Alexander II untimely assassination.

LadyCat · #42 05-09-2008, 08:35 AM

I don't know that Sasha, or Nicky, would have been better at their "jobs" has Alexander II lived. As with George, Sasha was not "meant" to be Tsar, he became the heir after his older brother died. Unlike George, Sasha had real power he was unsuited to weld. As he was unsuited to reign, he was totally incapable of teaching his son how to handle the position.

One parallel between Sasha and George that I found interesting - they both married their older, deceased brothers' intended wives. Suitable wives must have been in very short supply!

Cat

**HRH Kerry** · #43 05-09-2008, 08:52 PM

I believe Sasha would've adopted to a new beginning for Russia through his father's reforms had Alexander II lived to see them through. Well...if they would've "worked out" shall I say. That would've been a good foundation so that by the time Nicky was to reign he would've been better prepared for his role. If only things would've progressed in the natural order without Nicky's predecessors being prematurely assassinated.

LadyCat · #44 05-10-2008, 10:15 AM

As much as I would love to be able to rewrite history or even ask these guys "What were you thinking?", sadly that is not possible. As much fun as I have speculating about what might have been, what is, well, is. Both Russia and Germany suffered due to incompetent leaders. Okay, so Bismark wasn't incompetent, he was just shortsighted. (And yes I consider him to have been the real leader of Prussia, and later Germany, during Willy's grandfather's reign).

Cat

ysbel · #45 05-10-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by attaininggrace

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysbel

Its hard to imagine Vicky as Georgie's mother. Based on her statement that she was considered a German in London and too English in Berlin, I got the sense that Vicky had a hard time fitting in anywhere. If she had been Georgie's mother, I imagine there would have been something about the society that she lived in that she didn't just fit into and that would have carried over to her relationships with her children. I suspect she had a genius IQ in a time where even male geniuses had a hard time much less female geniuses.

I can't really agree with this, Ysabel. I think that she was regarded as a German in London because public opinion turned against the Germans because of the three wars, especially the one against the French.

The German culture was extremely different from the English and I think the Germans found Vicky very assertive compared with German women. She didn't endear herself to them by constantly implying that English ways were superier, it must be admitted!

I think that if she'd married a more liberal-minded and dominating English lord or duke, she might have been perfectly happy.

Best Regards,
Attaining Grace
bookaddiction

Well its hard to know exactly what Vicky meant by that comment and I agree with you that Vicky's attitudes about the English superiority totally antagonized the Germans with good reason.

But Vicky didn't seem to have any real friends in England other than her mother in a family where strong bonds did form between siblings. According to the book, Bertie was intimidated by Vicky's intellectualism and so he formed a strong bond with his younger sister Alice instead. Even before Alexandra, I don't think there was any great love between Vicky and Bertie. But I found it really remarkable that no one in the family seemed to complain when Victoria banned Vicky from one Christmas' festivities. The book pretty well makes clear that Victoria's children were willing to ignore their mother when they wanted but no one said or did anything contrary to Victoria's wishes this time. This may be because her other children had married small German princes who had been at war with Germany but I do think it speaks to Vicky's lack of good relations with the rest of her family that no one spoke out in her favour and throughout the whole book so far I have not heard of any of Victoria's other children speaking out for Vicky. In my opinion, the Prussian wars cannot totally explain this lack.

It would be intriguing if she had married a liberal-minded English duke, but I think when Vicky was first married, it was still strongly expected for a Princess Royal to marry a crown prince of an important empire. She seemed to like the fact upon the unification that she was raised to 'Kaiserlich und Königlich Hoheit' Imperial and Royal Highness so it appears titles and positions did matter to her. The problem was that outside Prussia there was no real power that could rival Britain except maybe Russia but Russia was very foreign to the British. It would have indeed been intriguing if Vicky had married Sasha's older brother Nixa for if they had had a son before Nixa died, that son would have been Alexander II's heir and Vicky would have had a father in law who matched her intellect and her outlook entirely. Given that Alexander II was killed by a bomb when his grandchildren were still children, chances are that Vicky's son would have come to the throne as a child and I shudder though to think of what a Russia would look like with child czar and a government ruled by Vicky as Empress Dowager.

LadyCat · #46 05-10-2008, 11:35 AM

Vicky as regent of Russia.... now that is an interesting idea, and one that never occurred to me. Thanks, ysbel. I may have to kick that around in my head a bit.

Cat

ysbel · #47 05-10-2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRH Kerry

Maybe she would have been guided down the right path (whatever that might have been) had Albert lived longer. I just don't understand how she under the advisement and counsel of her grandmother (along with her husband) were trying to mold the empire into Victoria's "English" Prussia. That was the goal when it all boils down to it. Am I the only one to see the absurdity in this? Did she not fear her life? The court was bent on absolutism. I understand that the times were changing but to be that close in proximity Bismark and taking him on in what seemed like a war against the world! Reading this book I was afraid of what he was capable. I am very surprised that Vicky lived to be Kaiserin no matter how brief the period was.

No you're not the only one to see the absurdity of this. I often wondered when reading if Vicky had really expected the Germans to respond, 'No, we didn't know we Germans were so backwards and inferior, thank you for letting us know.' I think Alix and Minnie were very successful at having an impact in their new country because the countries were at a very open period to new ideas and cultures and the ladies didnt' make a point of despising the culture of their new country.

I also think that Vicky and Fritz would have been better off if they had taken Minnie and Sasha's approach and hidden their true tendencies so long as the old Kaiser was alive. Sasha and Minnie were much better at hiding their absolutist tendencies in the court of liberal Alexander II and as a result neither suffered the loss of power, popularity or esteem that Vicky and Fritz did.

ysbel · #48 05-10-2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyCat

Vicky as regent of Russia.... now that is an interesting idea, and one that never occurred to me. Thanks, ysbel. I may have to kick that around in my head a bit.

Cat

Yes quite an interesting concept, Cat; I admit I hadnt' thought of it either until attaininggrace mentioned who else Vicky could have married.

However, its possible that Vicky could have been a great Dowager Empress. She seems to be such a contradiction, ideals such as freedom and democracy bundled up in a woman who is rather pigheaded and doesn't seem to listen to people who disagree with her. It seems her personality seems to fit better with an absolutist outlook. If Vicky and Fritz had had absolutist tendencies, they would have been a true force to contend with in Germany. In many ways Vicky seems like the female Sasha only with much greater intelligence but Sasha kept his feelings to himself and no one would expect an absolutist czar to listen or respect others. One doesn't expect a liberal minded and democratically leaning princess to be pigheaded and obstinate.

However, I believe Russia may have been more used to the iron rule so its possible that a hardheaded Empress Dowager Vicky could have forced Russia into democracy much like a latter day Peter the Great. Now if Nixa had lived to be czar, with his education and charm and Vicky's iron will, I think its very well possible that they would have been a true force for democracy in Russia. I though suspect though that Nixa would have had his work cut out for him smoothing off Vicky's rather rough edges.

**HRH Kerry** · #49 05-10-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyCat

As much as I would love to be able to rewrite history or even ask these guys "What were you thinking?", sadly that is not possible. As much fun as I have speculating about what might have been, what is, well, is. Both Russia and Germany suffered due to incompetent leaders. Okay, so Bismark wasn't incompetent, he was just shortsighted. (And yes I consider him to have been the real leader of Prussia, and later Germany, during Willy's grandfather's reign).

Cat

LadyCat,
It is what is.

And... Bismarck wasn't incompetent and he read Willy so well. And I have to agree with your comment that he was indeed shortsighted especially not realizing that as well as he read Willy, he couldn't forsee that Willy's personality was ever evolving into something more and more explosive and further more uncontrollable by himself or his influences.

**HRH Kerry** · #50 05-10-2008, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysbel

Yes quite an interesting concept, Cat; I admit I hadnt' thought of it either until attaininggrace mentioned who else Vicky could have married.

However, its possible that Vicky could have been a great Dowager Empress. She seems to be such a contradiction, ideals such as freedom and democracy bundled up in a woman who is rather pigheaded and doesn't seem to listen to people who disagree with her. It seems her personality seems to fit better with an absolutist outlook. If Vicky and Fritz had had absolutist tendencies, they would have been a true force to contend with in Germany. In many ways Vicky seems like the female Sasha only with much greater intelligence but Sasha kept his feelings to himself and no one would expect an absolutist czar to listen or respect others. One doesn't expect a liberal minded and democratically leaning princess to be pigheaded and obstinate.

However, I believe Russia may have been more used to the iron rule so its possible that a hardheaded Empress Dowager Vicky could have forced Russia into democracy much like a latter day Peter the Great. Now if Nixa had lived to be czar, with his education and charm and Vicky's iron will, I think its very well possible that they would have been a true force for democracy in Russia. I though suspect though that Nixa would have had his work cut out for him smoothing off Vicky's rather rough edges.

Now that you guys have mentioned it and brought reason to it, I have to agree that Vicky would've been more suited in Russia. Too bad that wasn't part of the 'Victoria and Albert Vision'. It was a matter of bringing the German relations together in solidarity with their English family.

Thank you guys for that point of view.

**GlitteringTiaras** · #51 05-11-2008, 03:57 PM

Welcome to the second KKT book discussion. Here are some highlights from chapters 7-10.

I Bide My Time:
Key pages: 110, 112, 114, 116-117, and 120.

Dysfunctional and otherwise strained relationship between Willy and his parents continue.
The Bismarck's: Otto and Herbert
1884 trip to Russia and a "turning point for Willy..." Impressed even the most hardened Russian.(110)
Left Russia before a major wedding. Acted like a child again because his first "love", Ella, was about to marry another.
Bismarck uses Willy as a pawn.
Married Auguste Viktoria Friederike Luise Feodora Jenny of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg on Feb 27, 1881. To me, it was a "duty" marriage even though they had several children together there was no real love or passion between the two. Willy rather spend his time with his Prussian officers than his wife. (112)
Changing personality of Willy: Cold, calculating to an extent, had a strong feeling of self importance, slightly paranoid, whiney, immature, unpredictable, impatient, control freak, liked to play "military man", resentful, and otherwise big giant baby. Like to get a rise out of people; to shock them to see what happens. He also liked to lecture hours on end to his Prussian officers about military history.
His grandfather, Kaiser Wilhelm I, promoted Willy to command of the Elite Guards of Hussars. Why I have no idea. Wily didn't deserve it. He did nothing to really earn his rank and orders. He loved the idea of being a strong military man, but he didn't have the overall skills in my opinion. (114)
QUESTION: Why was he so comfortable hanging out with his Prussian military officers?
The rise and stability of the German Empire under the Kaiser and Bismarck. (120)

Willy, the Kaiser:
Key pages: 131-132

Questions:

Had political intrigue and tensions not surrounded him (Willy) between the Crown Prince and Vicky, do you believe Willy would have been an excellent ruler in Germany or another country like England?
Had he not been surrounded himself with anti-England officials do you believe Willy may have been more receptive towards England? If so, why?

A Wedding and a Betrothal:

Eddy needed a bride and quick.
Princess Victoria Mary Augusta Louise Olga Pauline Claudine Agnes of Teck aka Fat Mary. May's grandmother was the granddaugher of George III so there was, already, a nice tie with the British royal family.
Death of Prince Eddy, The Duke of Clarence and Avondale. Sad, but the family seemed relieved, unfortunately.
Georgie, Duke of York, now heir to the throne and marries Eddy's finacee, May.(151) Though engaged to his brother, the marriage between May and Georgie was a good on in my opinion. She may have not been as "glamourous" Alexandra, but she was a very interesting woman.
Given Cliff Notes version and training as the new PoW. (150)

Nicky and Willy:

Poor Nicky. He never had a chance with a father like Sasha. "Weak as water" described by his Uncle Bertie. (173)
Rise of revolutionary activity. It was inevitable to say the least.
Willy constantly bugging Nicky, the new Tsar, with advice.(174) He hoped, I believe, to influence him and perhaps manipulate to poor weak and otherwise inept ruler of Russia.

Questions:

1. Why was he so comfortable hanging out with his Prussian military officers? What do you think was his fascination with all things military? Was it an ego boost? Or escapism of sorts?

2. Had political intrigue and tensions not surrounded him (Willy) between the Crown Prince and Vicky, do you believe Willy would have been an excellent ruler in Germany or another country like England?

3. Had he not been surrounded himself with anti-England officials do you believe Willy may have been more receptive towards England? If so, why?

4. By the end of this section of the book, Nicky and Willy are both rulers but Georgie isn't. Do you think this makes the treatment of the three cousins in these chapters unbalanced?

5. The three cousins are now all married. Does the influence of their wives make any difference to them compared with the influence of their mothers?

6. If the circumstances in Russia were different, hence had a better mentor such as Alexander II, do you believe Nicky may have turned out to be a better Tsar and implemented some reforms in Russia?

7. Better yet, if Alexander III didn't react to the assassination of his father by ruling Russia as a despot thus Russia became an intolerable place to live and because of that the ever increasing rise of underground revolutionary activities, do you believe Nicky would have been more prepared... more inspired for change? Moreover, how could the Imperial Court remained so incredibly oblivious to the stirrings of revolution? Why was Nicky so blind to the obvious?

8. Autocratic rule. Is that the only way Russia can function? Could anyone have been strong enough to rule Russia?

**HRH Kerry** · #52 05-11-2008, 04:17 PM

I have to read chapter 10. I'll "see" you guys in the chat room.

**Elspeth** · #53 05-11-2008, 04:26 PM

The chat room for the book isn't open till the end of the month, Kerry. But you can "see" everyone here until then!

**Elspeth** · #54 05-11-2008, 04:35 PM

I think things are getting more interesting in this part of the book, now that Nicky is also a ruler and there are wives in the mix as well as mothers. It's interesting how the choice of wives seems to have reflected the type of rulers they were: May was essentially a peacemaker and a soothing influence whereas Dona and Alicky were very much more interested in shoring up their husbands' autocratic instincts.

One minor quibble is that I wish they'd referred to Nicky's wife as Alicky. For those of us more familiar with the British royals, Alix is Queen Alexandra. Since she was Georgie's Motherdear and quite influential in this part of the book, I was getting confused with the two Alix's.

ysbel · #55 05-11-2008, 05:03 PM

Hello, another interesting read, this time with the cousins as young adults.

First let me say that I was again a bit annoyed by the total focus on the 3 cousins this time it seems to the lack of everyone else in the story.

For example, only upon Eddy's death do we find how close the two brothers were and how distraught Georgie was upon his death. So close the brothers were that George named his eldest son Edward after his older brother. Yet the influence of that relationship on the outlook of young Georgie was not considered that important to the author even though Eddy with his effeminate dandyism and lack of concentration bore uncanny resemblances to his cousin Willy. (And for one, this reader would have been very intrigued to read how Georgie was close to one effeminate dandy brother and had an aversion to the cousin.)

Another example is when the author claims that Alexandra appeared half-German half-English in Russia despite the fact that earlier in the book she stressed how totally English Alix was. Comparing Alix to Minnie, the author noted that Minnie had endeavoured to pick up as many Russian traits and manners as possible but no where earlier in the book had the author tried to explain exactly how Minnie adopted more Russian traits. All I got from the book was that Minnie was a clever conversationalist who had extreme ease at talking with any one regardless of the position or occasion. It would have been indeed very interesting to read how Minnie had indeed achieved this Russification because if so, then that would have explained more fully how deep the shock was when her daughter in law took the throne.

The author also puts forth some contradictions without seemingly trying to explain them. Like when Bertie writes that Nicky is so well loved and of such a good countenance that if he adopted a liberal policy, he would be a great ruler however later in the same chapter we see that he wrote that Nicky was 'weak as water'. Granted that Bertie opined both but it would be helpful if the author tried to explain a bit more how these two opinions could come from the same person. In fact, I think unlike with Willy and George, the author gives the reader scant evidence of Nicky's later weak behavior until she writes about his rise to the throne. I again feel that Nicky is the author's least favorite cousin.

OK with that vent finished, that having been said, I found it amazing how Vicky for the second time overrode German doctors, this time when her husband was diagnosed with cancer. She brought in an English doctor who said the growth was benign. As a result Fritz did not have the surgery only to have the English doctor change his diagnosis to the same one the Germans had earlier but by then it was too late and Fritz died. First with Willy's birth and now with Fritz' death, Vicky's hand hovered over them.

I also saw a lot of similarities between Willy and his mother Vicky despite their distaste for one another. I think Willy was quite brilliant like his mother and like Vicky, he appears to not have the ability to keep his opinions to himself. He knew that George and Nicky didn't trust him but he carried on giving them advice on this and that much in the same way I imagine his mother Vicky was telling the Prussians what was wrong with them and wondering why they didn't listen. And he like his mother probably made himself easier to take advantage of. He seems to have inherited 100% her lack of social intelligence.

I don't have enough of a knowledge of 19th century German history to judge the politics of the day but despite the rest of Europe's hatred for Bismarck, dismissing Bismarck appeared to be Willy's big mistake. Bismarck appears to be rather Machiavellian - willing to use force and fear to get what he wants but not inclined to use force if he doesnt' have to. I thought it was interesting that when Bismarck resigned there was real mourning in Germany which sounds surprising if his policies were indeed as oppressive to the common man as he was. I wonder if the common people in those small German duchies actually resented the Prussian takeover less than their overlords. Bismarck and Sasha seemed to be two men of the same minds but different countries.

The chapters actually ended with Nicky taking the throne and the way the author describes his ascession, one cannot imagine a more incompetent ruler ever. Surprising that one gets a greater foreboding with Nicky at this stage than Willy.

**HRH Kerry** · #56 05-11-2008, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elspeth

The chat room for the book isn't open till the end of the month, Kerry. But you can "see" everyone here until then!

Sorry. I was reading the discussion schedule. I need to finish before I add anything of value.